The Dream Drivetrain: SII L67, 6 spd (and this time, It's Real)

[Guest F14CRAZY]

un-deleted

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I promise, that this is going to be a drivetrain in a car to make a grown man cry.

At least 240 hp, tons of torque anywhere in the RPM range, the whine from the supercharger, and putting it through <span style="font-style: italic">all those gears. mmm...</span>. It'll be a real "Bimmer Eater"

[manikmekanik]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> mmm.... It'll be a real "Bimmer Eater" </div></div>

...more like a GN/X eater!!

[luftweg]

I've always felt that the key to this working smoothly/quickly is the development a 'black box', that would 'translate' computer codes between the 'new' engine/drivetrain, and the 'old' Reatta's dashboard/electronics...

Of course, there would still be some other issues, like mounts and such, but what it always seems to come down to -- as a stumbling-block -- is whether the engine and car can talk to each other...

Until engine/drivetrain swaps become 'standardized' in the Reatta, it will probably always be a more expensive proposition than what it's worth in the end...

And moreover, it will deter many people from even trying to do it, which will further help keep it from being a straightfoward undertaking.

We need an engineered solution.

Am I wrong about this?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Luftweg: You indeed have some valid concerns and points. What I say below is the best I know, so please don't rely on my info.

We're rather limited in our drivetrain choices. '91 Reattas were the only ones that had electronically controlled transmissions. You MIGHT be able to use a 4T65-HD (used with a Series II supercharged 3800) with a '91, but for all other Reattas, if you must have an automatic, then you're mostly stuck with the stock 4T60/440T4. They can be built up but not that much. They were made to take the power from a 2.8L Chevy V6. Its lifespan will be reletively short.

The good thing is that the FWD GM V6 transmission bellhousing is pretty much the same.

But as you said, we do not yet have a magical "black box" to make a newer PCM function like the Reatta's ECM would. Without it we can't use any V8 and V6s with advanced controls, say like the 3900 with variable valve timing. I feel that one could be designed using a laptop, probably running Linux, and some advanced programming. I can't take up programming, but my little brother is planning on it. I'm going to push him to design a program to do this. Well, not push him, you know, but make him aware that there's a need for such a program and the associated devices.

The best idea right now is to reprogram the Reatta ECM with the different peramaters required to run right. The Series II 3800 is said to be a total redesign, but it kind of isn't. From my knowledge, the Reatta ECM doesn't care what its plugged into, because the sensor readings are the same as they were, it just needs to meet different air and fuel demands, adjusted timing advance, and that kind of thing. Ryan of Sinister Performance specializes in tuning 3800s and was able to mail me a program to use in my ECM to get my engine up and drivable after I supercharged it. I had to visit him to get it tuned properly but wasn't an issue.

The LN3 and the rest of the newer 3800s are fairly simple in their controls, with a mass airflow sensor, crankshaft and camshaft position sensor, knock sensor (though the Series II has an extra as a backup), one oxygen sensor that matters, and coolant temp sensor. From what I know, they all send the same signals.

I'm going to try not to let myself become too "gung-ho" in this project, but I will keep my innovative spirit

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Spending has commenced, and thus, I am not committed. I have sent the money to Scott for his modified 2.8L flywheel. Because of my decision to go Series II, I'm not certain if I can use it (a quick change since I was planning on keeping the LN3). I agreed to purchase it as-is. Scott was generous to dig it up for me and is also including a left over master cylinder and a couple cables, which may very well be useful in this project.

I've located a source on car-part.com with a NEW 6 speed transaxle for $500. A killer deal, but I've decided to put the heavy spending off for a little bit cuz I want to make a trip to Florida later this month. As I said, this will be spaced over a couple months.

[padgett]

Anything is possible. That said, to use any ECM other than the stock one would require wiring changes. This includes the 1991 ECM. Something is niggling about a black box that was available to fit an "E" engine in an older car.

The "blem wit" the Reatta is the digital dash. This is accomplished by having a special sequential data stream on the ALDL which serves as a serial LAN.

The BCM is acting as a scan tool but just has one engine setting selected by the PROM. This means the ECM data stream output must match what the BCM is expecting.

Have a pretty good handle on the ECM programming but almost none on the BCM - same processor, similar memory, different programming. Not that it can't be done, just has not (have sent out a number of CDs now but received zero feedback).

So, it is just a matter of programming but must begin with an OBD-I aka P4 computer, OBD-II (1995 up) not only says different things, it uses a different format kind of like AM and FM.

This makes the 92-93 Park Avenue ECM a good place to start - maps for the L-67 and "E" trans and can talk to the BCM, just need it to say something different.

OTOH adding a manual trans is easy, just remove a bunch of error handlers and the DFCO routine.

[Guest Greg Ross]

Philip,

Background on the Flywheel for the manual tranny swap, may have mentioned this previously;

There was only one GM Factory optioned 3.8L/ 3800 with a Manual Transmission but was RWD. That was 1990ish Camaro available with the V6 and a 5-Spd. Drove one actually.

So, you could still (3 years ago) buy this Flywheel new from GM, memory faded but think perhaps less then $150. The Bolt Pattern on the back of the crank is unique to the 3.8/ 3800. I would assume Scott built this one, plugged the holes and drilled the new bolt pattern. It's also probably machined down to the correct thickness to suit the Getrag 5-Spd. (model 282 or 284!)

Don't know if Scott ever told me why but, he didn't like the Model 284 for some reason?

Are you talking a hydraulic accuated clutch?

Those Shifter cables are woth a couple of hundred dollars (each) new.

I had a look on "Car-Part.com" and was amazed!

Here's two samples, and there were more.

Some say "New" others say "Surplus" Is GM selling off surplus Inventory, may be time to sell off those GM Shares Martha!

The Sellers listing prices in the $5-600. range happen to be either Salvage Yards or Tramsmission Repair Outfits?

Even then, a long as they don't ask you send the Western Union payment c/o London, England!

No seriously, that's an excellent price, I just might be tempted myself!

2006

Transmission

Pontiac G6 NEW 6SPD OEM SURPLUS ZERO MILE WRNTY NEW $600 Zumbrota Auto Parts USA-MN(Zumbrota) Request_Quote 1-800-528-1496 Request_Insurance_Quote

2006

Transmission

Pontiac G6 BRAND NEW 6 SPEED KIRT $500 Auto Sport Unlimited USA-MI(Zeeland) E-mail 1-800-695-1021

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thanks again for the info Greg. I did remember it, but good to have it here for reference, and in case I forget.

For reference, this is Scott's page about his Trofeo

I am receiving the 2.8L flywheel he used previously. I will have to evaluate the situation to see if it can be used in my situation.

This is a recent email from Ryan. It seems that I will want to be using a Camaro flywheel (as you did, Greg, and Scott as well)

<span style="font-style: italic">Concerning the flywheels, what is used with the Series II engines is different than what your stock engine would use, because the bolt pattern where it bolts up to the crank is different. Furthermore, when I use manual transmissions with the 3800 Series II engines, I use a manual trans flywheel from a 95-up Camaro/Firebird 3800. The flywheel will bolt right up to the FWD 3800 Series II engine, because both engines are the same, however, the flywheel needs to be machined down to work in a FWD application. The RWD transmission is spaced out from the engine more requiring a thicker flywheel in the RWD application. The FWD trans doesn't have this much spacing so to use the RWD flywheel in a FWD trans, you need to have it cut down. There was NEVER any 3800 used with a manual trans in a FWD application in case you were wondering. The Series II flywheel will NOT work with 1991 and earlier 3800 engines. The 1991 and earlier 3800 engines had a 6-bolt crank pattern (91-up 3800 and 3800 Series II engines had 8-bolt crank pattern). So if you were going to use your original engine with this 6-speed, you would need to get a custom flywheel or use something off another GM FWD engine that had a 6-bolt crank pattern, possibly the 2.8 or 2.5 4cyl. Keep in mind you will need to have any flywheel you use rebalanced for the engine you are using it on.

The Reatta ECM will run an L67. There are some differences in the wiring to the engine but they are minor and shouldn't require too much work. Of course the new engine will require new tuning done as well. Let me know if you have any questions.

-ryan</span>

With this, it seems the 2.8L flywheel will not be useful, at least in its current state. Again, I'll have to have the SII L67 in my hands to evaluate the situation. I'm not sure why I haven't, but I could ask Scott about this too <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />. I need to think about things a little more sometimes.

Anyway, I just fired off an email to him about it.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I'm not sure what kind of master cylinder it is, but will soon find out

[Guest F14CRAZY]

An update from Scott. I asked him about why he chose to use a RWD F-body flywheel when he went Series II, versus the 2.8L flywheel that he used with the Series I...

<span style="font-weight: bold">Because somebody told me the bolt pattern was different. I had the F-body

flywheel all machined before I took the Series1 out of the car, only to find

out that the old one would bolt up. It's possible there could be a balance

issue, but a machine shop could take care of that for you. Since I had the

other flywheel ready to go, I didn't even check into that. You'll need some

longer bolts for the flywheel, as it's considerably thicker than the

automatic flexplate. Just go to your GM dealer and get bolts for the Camaro

3.8/5-speed combo. </span>

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Yesterday I received the custom flywheel, master cylinder, and shift cables from Scott. I have pix but don't have a machine to post them at the moment, but will get to that.

[Guest crtnrds]

Ok. Holidays are over. Let's get this thread going again. I blew up my series I SC motor doing some WOT tests for Ryan to get my memcal programed right & bam, at 12 lbs of boost (undersized pulley) it threw the rod out the side of the block. It was bound to happen as the oil preasure was low to begin with, so I decided to drive it til it went. Now it's time for a new motor & I'm trying to decide weather to go series II or just a simple swap to another series I. I plan to use the stock Reatta trans which had been modified with parts from the '95 Riviera that the SC motor came from. Then I'll drive it til it goes & decide what trans to go to then. I like the manual trans idea but want to make it as easy as possible at this point.So, let's go F14, I'm depending on you (& the others) to get me thru this.

[Guest crtnrds]

I hope I make out better with this engine swap than I do with downloading pictures.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I'm still into doing this as ever...this project hasn't been forgotten.

I ran into a little budget crisis due to college tuition <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />, but I'm almost out of it. After that, most of my income will go toward this project for a while.

I havent got a pic of it posted but I do have the flywheel from Scott. I can't do anything with it yet, for I have to get the Series II first, and machine the flywheel so it sits the same distance back in the bell housing as it does in the 3900. Suppose I could get lucky and it'll be all good to go, but doubtful.

I've been following the thread on Pennock's Fiero Forum that I linked. The gentleman there is having special axle adapters made which allow the female CV shaft ends to plug into the female transaxle. He didn't know exactly what axles he was going to use a couple days ago, but will keep checking.

Since I'm going to have the Series II out of a car, I think I'll install a cam, probably from ZZ Performance. I'm going to ask Bonneville Club what else I should do. The M90 will probably get a new coupler as well as a mild underdrive pulley.

I think this can be done on a $2500-3k budget. That's considering...

-Series II L67 with not too many miles (100k range?) with all accessories, $1000

-6 speed, $500-800 depending on who still has one when I'm ready

-the axle adapters, if I need them, about $350 (still have to figure this one out)

Sorry to hear your motor grenaded, CRT. With all the aftermarket support, I'd go Series II. Browse ZZP's or INTENSE's site, and you'll find tons of goodies that make it the right choice. Goot admit it'd be pretty sweet to have an intercooler in place of the grill. I'm not going to go crazy on mods at first, but headers, cam, rockers, underdrive s/c pulley, intercooler, s/c porting...300 hp is going to be easy to break.

The drivetrain that can bring a grown man to tears, in progress...

[Guest crtnrds]

I'm mostly concerned about getting the series II electronics to work with the '88 Reatta ECM/BCM.

[padgett]

Don't get me wrong, there is no doubt that this can be done, it just has not and while the communications issue is somewhat complex, it is known.

There have been a lot of suggestions of how to interface a SII engine with an OBD-II serial data stream. There are two issues, one relatively major and one relatively minor.

The first is that the S-I (P4) data stream is at 8192 baud and in a specific format. OBD-II is at 10,400 baud and formatted differently.

The second is the data stream that the BCM expects must be not only in P4 format but also in a specific order that varies slightly by year.

There is a program ALDLStuff.Zip floating around the net that lists all of the P4 GM ALDL data streams.

Now a PC can handle both baud rates and can be programmed to translate one into the other so whay you need is a SBC (single board computer) with two serial ports or USB ports programmed to translate OBD-II into P4.

This will take significant engineering and programming time plus interfaces for both LANs ( http://www.moates.net ) has a P4 interface and I am asking about an OBD-II.

[Guest Greg Ross]

Scott Pearson <mrcad472@theautoshop.net> had piped in here a few times concerning his work on an Olds Trofeo (e-Body) As I understood it, he is running an L67 Series II using OBD-1 Senders/ Sensors, that sounds like a practical interface. That's still relying on reprogramming the '88 PROM to capture the required S/C Timing/ Fuel Charts. I seem to recall Scott responded last year (now!) on F-14s' Thread. Worth looking back for those posts/ or maybe his (Scotts') Website.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Greg is correct. My plan is to use stock/Series 1 sensors to run it

I'd post some more but I'm a bit beat. Spent 7 hours changing glow plugs in the van

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Sorry I haven't given any updates. This project is still very much alive.

I've had to pay for half of my tuition for this semester, so there went over $1k of my own capital. This budget crisis is almost over though, and Reatta activity has still been going on. My little brother's '90 coupe is about to go in for a frame check (recall that we picked that up this summer with some front end damage), and for Christmas I had Ryan burn a performance program for the Select 60.

I promise to you guys, that this project will happen. It's a project that can make a grown man cry

[Guest crtnrds]

I picked my series II motor today, from a 2001 Regal with 34K miles. I "negotiated" it down to $675. Looking forward to putting it on the engine stand & comparing brackets & mounting positions of various parts tomorrow.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

hey CRT I didn't know you were going after a Series II too, though I do remember you telling of how your Series 1 threw a rod. If its not too much for you, do you suppose you could share your data and pix?

$675 is a really good deal. Did you get all the acessories with it?

[sahein]

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?perfPackages=1&pkgid=119

This might work.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

This exact one might not work, cuz it's for RWD autos, but I have seen them for GM transaxles which could help out CRT if he's going to use a 4T65-HD or 4T60-E.

Note also that I have a contact through Bonneville Club that can make a "bulletproof" 4T60 but I've lost most all faith in autos.

[Guest crtnrds]

I'd be happy to post photos etc, but I haven't had much "luck" posting photos on this site. (or anywhere else) I'm not that computer literate, but with your helpfull coaching I'm sure I can.

Pulled the Series I motor out today & will start swapping parts tomorrow. I'm using the "stock" Reatta trans(4T60E?) that had been beefed up by the previous owner (a Buick Tech) with parts from the Riviera the motor came out of. If that blows I'll probably go with a 5 speed. I'm just not ready for that project along with the series II swap now.

For the grand that trans controller goes for I could pay somebody to do the 5 speed swap, right GREG?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

(about the auto tranny controller) My thought exactly <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

If you'd like you can email me the photos and I can post them/host them for you.

[Guest crtnrds]

Spent a couple hours yesterday adapting the AC bracket to the S II motor. I'll take pics & try to post today. Today I am swapping out the sensors from the SI to SII. The EGR will take a bit of adaptation.

I found that the "surgeons" that removed the motor cracked the rear (fiberglass) valve cover. The L67 valve cover is unique so I guess I'll have to spring for a new one.

[Guest crtnrds]

Swapped the crank sensor today. It appears that it is the same as my series I, & the part #s look to be the same?? What a PITA. had to pull the balancers off both motors.

The cam sensor appears to be the same also.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thanks for the update. Do you think the motor mounts will bolt up?

[Guest crtnrds]

Yes, I think so.

I spoke (via email) to Ryan G & he also believes the crank & cam sensors are the same (at least on the SI & SII motors) I believe the stock Reattas' are the same. Pull the cam sensor & check #s. It's much easier than the crank sensor.

[padgett]

Or download the online parts manual and check the part numbers.

[sisqocracker]

Am very interested in what I'm seeing here as I've got a Fiero Project Car that's getting a 3800 SII and a 4sp currently. I'm seeing a 6sp here? Goes in the new G6? I'm going to have to find out more about the spacing of the output location and depth difference from the 4sp manual that I have from the original 85 Fiero GT. If there isn't much of any difference, I may have to upgrade so I can drop my highway RPMs. I'll have to look into the axles too. Very interested in reading more on what's going on here. Are there more links I can follow for more info on this 3800 SII and 6sp manual FWD setup going together? Or is this an auto 6sp going in here?

Thanks,

Mark

[Guest F14CRAZY]

yes sir, this is using the 6 speed manual from a G6 with the 3900.

There's more to it, but the depth would be made up for with the flywheel.

This is THE thread, however, i think I linked it to a thread at Pennock's Fiero Forum where a gentleman is working with one in a Fiero. He's getting custom made axle adapters

Sorry I'm being short with this post, I just got home.

[padgett]

Have had a couple of cars with four speeds (67 Camaro, 78 Sunbid V-8, 86 Fiero V-6) that I always wished had had an overdrive gear. It is part of the reason for the 255x70x15s on the back of the Judge.

35 mph/1000 rpm is about right but have had many cars that maxed out at 20.

Now I must admit that I have never understood the idea of six speeds other than on a motorcycle with less than 650cc. Five has always seemed right and simplifies the shifter - seems that you would always be either shifting or skipping gears. Heck, when not in a hurry I oten go straight from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to 4th in a 4 speed.

Something really liked about the 440T4/4T60 is the effect of the 4 speed+O/D I had in a raft of Jaguars. Lockup drops the revs 500 rpm at speed and is just right.

So could someone please explain why, for a torque engine like the 3800, if five speeds are enough six is better ? I just do not understand.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

It's not really that much better as far as performance goes. A supercharged 3800 makes power like anywhere, from idle to redline, it doesn't really care.

But, Ryan did make the point that this 6 speed is the strongest manual GM has had.

They're new (won't have to rebuild or struggle to find a low mileage unit)

Bragging rights to your ricer buddies <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And think, of putting it through all those gears. mmmm...

[Guest MauiWowee]

I'm with you, Padgett. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[padgett]

Well maybe with an inline shifter.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Shifting's fun. Gimme a 7 or 8 speed or something, with two shift gates <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[shoreice]

F14 would have loved my old GMC flatbed one-ton dually> had a 3 way brownie gear splitter behind the factory 4 speed. All manual, no electric shifter or synchros in the brownie. 12speeds on a turbo diesel. Yup, I was a gear jammin fool, LOL Kenny

[sisqocracker]

I've just been driving 6sp manuals for 12 years now, and have noticed that anytime I drive a car with fewer gears manually or hear the engine RPM up too high, I want to grab another gear that isn't there. I'm also suspecting that I'll get somewhere in the neighborhood of 38 MPG in the Fiero as it doesn't weigh much and with the RPMs low on the highway, it should do very well. Well, ok, lets get to the cool reasons; it's a Lamborghini Diablo kit car and in such a case, it should have a 6sp. :-) I will be updating my page once I get the project underway @ http://www.bowtielambo.com There are pics here.

Thanks,

Mark