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59chevyguy

Re: judging question on 64 1/2 Mustang

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skipro55, The list of rules/standards that you took all the time to post for us to see, what is the source for those? MCA rules or factory information?

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In my last post I did specify it was an MCA judging criteria but I shold have highlighted that. I was trying to get across the point that I am in the dark on the # number of points deducted in the engine compartment which I averaged out at two per highlight. My reason for doing this is you can tell if it is the right part, color etc. You can't tell if the parts are damaged, dented etc. so you'll have to take my word on that. For example the 641/2 should have a generator and not an alternator. The generator should be painted semi gloss black. The sixty five should have an alternator. Not sure of the color but would have to check my book if that is important. My other intention was to get an understanding on over restoration, non authentic or incorrect to determine the point deductions. At any rate non of us will be able to figure this out. My opinion on the overall engine compartment is the deductions for gloss (maybe a bad assumption but I'll bet you two steaks in Harrisburg that was what the deductions were for). I really don't want to go to the next show and have to debate whether my engine compartment is over restoration, non authentic or incorrect, just not my style and truly I shouldn't have to debate that. Got a little wound up yesterday especially seeing comments about nicks, chips and dirt: just rubbed me the wrong way. Had a bad hair day! Read too many posts! Have a long way to go with MCA to get my grill medallion -- it will take me years to accumulate the necessary points -- pretty tough process. BTW, If you read my previous posts I thought I was pretty complimentary about all you judges out there. You do something that I can't do and would not be good at. Myabe we should compensate you all at say $10 per car. Wouldn't be a big tab for the owner at registration time, won't make you rich but cover some of your costs. Or provide you with a blanket to roll around the ground on. If you all do figure this over retoration, non authentic or just plain incorrect restoration thing out please let me know. If you need info on MCA I'll be glad to get you the judging criteria sent to you.

Thanks Again,

Sorry if I insulted you judges out there -- you do do a great job.

Don

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I fail to understand how you arrived at the conclusion that each deduction on the engine compartment averaged 2 points. You have no evidence whatsoever to assume that. You could have lost the first with only a 1 point deduction in all of the highlighted areas shown on your scoresheet if there was a 400 point car in the class. I just don't think you have enough info to draw the conclusions you have drawn. I would love to see the car. How many Mustangs were there in your class going for the first?

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First off, I am not insulted at all. You had a negative experience and that can stay with you awhile. Hopefully in the future, if you will let us, we can turn that around.

Okay, what the AACA goes by as absolute documentation is from the factory. No other documentation is taken without question. Even dealer options, if they were not authorized by the factory, are not acceptable. Some dealers would put after-market items on cars to please the buyer. So truthfully the best to have is the factory kind.

And this is not a plug for the AACA Library, but they do have a wide selection of that kind of information. Copies are available at a nominal cost. You can contact them and they will look up what you want, make copies and send them to you.

There are lots of dealers of factory information. Other 64 1/2 Mustang owners may be willing to let you make copies of factory information they have.

Now the question is, how does your car compare to factory literature and not how does it compare to MCA rules? For AACA competition you have to let go of what the MCA says is the standard or what is okay.

The AACA has a few things that they allow for safety purposes that other clubs may not allow. And parts that can be stainless steel or painted with aluminum paint to simulate cadmium plating as long as the final finish actually simulates the appearance of cadmium plating.

If you would like to have a copy of the 2006 Judges Manual to read through I will send you an extra copy that I have. Send me a PM with the address to mail it to and I will send it to you. Having one in your hands where you can mark pages that apply to your car might help you to understand how our system works.

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...and judges aren't always right. With the system the way it is, you may be penalized for something where you are right and the judge is wrong, but the car owner is still the one who gets penalized.

At Dover, there was a friend of ours parked next to us with a Dover truck that had a wooden bed that was left in a natural finish. The car owner did have a discussion with the team captain, and it was basically an issue where he lost points for having a natural wooden finish in the bed, and not high gloss or painted. This was a case where the truck is so rare that there is no documentation to prove the truck right or wrong, there is nothing in the AACA library pertaining to the truck, but when the Team Captain made the remark "well we would assume that it should be painted."

If you turn back the clock to the old Benny Hill show, you'll remember that "when you assume, you make an @ss out of u and me." That judging team didn't know anymore than the owner did, and the owner got screwed.

In the case with us at Hershey, if I lost points for having the red frame under my Ford fire truck, the judges were wrong. I have the photos to back up that the truck frame orginally being red, and I have photos of three other trucks (two which are still original) within 50 numbers from mine that also have frames painted red. No one at any time ever questioned me about the frame color, but if I lost points for it, then the judges were wrong, but due to the system, I'll never know.

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I believe their were five in the class -- just a side note 3 had five radial tires and one had four radial tires and one bias ply tire. Love to show you the car. The end of the month would have been great as I am driving to So. Carolina with my TBird for the Hilton Head Concours. Unfortunarely I only own a single 21' trailer. Maybe we can put something together after the holidays.

Don

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I was at dover this year also. pretty good show. The best AACA show I went to this year was in VA Beach. These guys were great! You couldn't move without one of them asking you if you were having a good time and could they do anything to help. Now that's Southern Hospitality. Probably the best show I ever went to except concours events where they treat you as royalty.

Don

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Hi,

I have read all the comments about this vehicle and I am sad to say that I was one of the judges on this team. I first must apologize for the conduct of the team and I was very embarrassed at how one of the team members acted. As far as the deductions, I can't tell you how many points were deducted. I do know that you showed the team captain the MCA sheet and it was noted on your score sheet that the "engine compartment should be semi-gloss, not gloss". I was not the "engine judge", but it was felt that it is a incorrect finish and a deduction should be made (just as MCA did). There was too much chat between the engine judge and the team captain and I know that more than just the team members heard it, which was very unprofessional on the part of the engine judge.

As far as point deductions in the chassis and exterior, the lower pinch weld should be painted black and overspray should be on the chassis (which we spoke to you about).

The Mustang class is a very competitive class and very nice cars alway show up to go through the judging process. Your car is very nice and will do well in AACA judging!!!!!!! Please bring it back to AACA.

Dale

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I guess I too was running on emotions.

I hate to say the number of times that I've heard statements like "if they haven't restored a car they should be a judge becuase they don't know what is invovled in restoring one", "judges have it easy, they show up judge and go home", "it is expensive to bring a car to a meet", etc. judges may have a lot of knowlege of certain cars because they may have one or two or three of them and whose knows, they may be restored but the onwer may not want to show for whatever reason. A lot of people don't stop to realize that the judges put in a lot of time and expense to judge a meet, just as the car owner does to show at that same meet.

As for compensation, I think you'll find that most judges do it as a hobby within a hobby. And (going out on a limb) most probably really wouldn't be interested in the monatery compensation. The biggest thing would be have onwers to have respect for the judges and their job at hand, as they try to have for the owners and thier vehicles. That mutual respect it what will benefit everyone. Of coruse there will sometimes be that one person on either side that will do or say something to upset the apple cart.

In AACA, if you go to a bunch of meets, you'll find that you most likely won't have the same group of people judging your vehicle each time. And with the way the judging is done, points are not necessarily a 100% acturate picture. If you happended to have say a scratch on a fender, a judge at one meet might say it is worth a point while at the next meet might over look it as it isn't worth a whole point. AACA has in the past (and probably still does some what) track vehicles that attend the majority of the meets. And it has been found that although the vehicle was judges by different people through out the year, the score was pretty consistant. Personally, that says a lot for a club that has voulenteer judges that are judging anything and everything that shows up wether they happen to be expert on it or not.

No hard feelings here. I was trying to stand up for the majority of the judges that sometimes get a bad rap just because of one or two "bad apples".

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...The biggest thing would be have onwers to have respect for the judges and their job at hand, as they try to have for the owners and thier vehicles. That mutual respect it what will benefit everyone. ...</div></div>

This is a very valid point. I want to judge cars that people truly care about. I have no desire to stand in the sun, rain, cold, etc. and have to point judge a car that looks like it was never cared for in it's entire career. Cars with filthy exteriors, interiors, engines and cruddy chassis. Have I seen cars like that on AACA show fields? Truthfully, not many. But even one is too many. Hershey is the worst for it since people will pay the entry fee for a good parking spot to go cruise the flea market. If they are going to do that they need to sign up as a Do Not Judge entry. The only other way to weed them out is to have owners submit photos with the application. If it is what would usually be referred to as a "beater" it could not be registered as a show car.

We don't have our car ready to show yet. But we both show up to support the hobby as often as we can. And showing up is not cheap. Do we show up for the now brass colored aluminum "chip" (there are some nice ones like the one we get at Hershey)? Hardly. We do it so that the hobby we love will survive for those that come behind us. We do it for the friendships that we have made over the years.

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I want to take this last opportunity to once again thank everyone who responded to this string of question and answers on this Post. It was my belief from the onset that no one here could bring this to a head and most of the opinions stated are assumptions which we all had the opportunity to study and respond. Sort of like an email debate with no real solution or winner.

It certainly has been an education, however, not one I will cherish. Let it be known that I did hear the conversations made by the head judge from the back of my car and I observed during the judging process that you (Dale) did conduct yourself professionally and were thorough with your assignments. Dale looks like a person that has strong character so why no response? Well you did, and have certainly earned my respect and I am sure from other readers on this forum. It was unfortunate that you had to be an innocent party to what happened but I want to compliment you, Dale, for your courage and straightforthness in your posting backing up my accusations regarding those unfortunate comments by someone who obviously missed a few judges meetings.

Regardless, I could tell by the way you handled yourself that day that you were a person of honesty, integrity and not thrilled with the behavior of the other judges. Unfortunately for me, what is done is done and cannot be overturned nor do I want or am I campaigning for any special treatment relative to this incident. It is my opinion that the problem lies at the top and not the bottom or as we say in business, there is no such thing as a bad employee only bad managers. Bad managers cost you business and this episode has cost AACA a member. I'm sure the officers of AACA have read these postings and it is their responsibility to fix the wrong so this does not happen in future meets for the sake of other owners and judges. As members and car owners we have the right to be treated fairly and with respect toward each other and especially our property.

Let me restate again for the record, there is semi gloss paint in the engine compartment, engine block, manifold, alternator etc. and is evidenced by the milky finish in the black paint. There should not have been a deduction according to the rule book as that should be considered over restoration. Page 2 number 2 of the AACA judging manual states "There shall be no penalty or premium for over - restoration. Over - Restoration and non - authentic restoration are not the same. Paint with a finer finish and higher gloss than original paint would be considered over - restoration. Chrome plating or varnishing a part which was originally painted would be considered non - authentic restoration, and the vehicle would receive the appropriate point deduction on the judging form". I did point out to the judge I spoke with that it was not suppose to be flat black but semi gloss but he did insist it should be flat. None the less, the conversation shouldn't have taken place, nor should it have been a topic of discussion as it didn't matter because the rule book spelled it out on page #2 which the lead judge should have known. And what kind of person am I? I would like to hear that. AACA manual page #60 POSITION DESCRIPTION OF THE TEAM CAPTAIN "THE TEAM CAPTAIN HOLDS THE MOST RESPONSIBLE POSITION ON THE JUDGING FIELD. It is the team captain who coordinates the activities of the judging team on the field and directs the team in the actual judging of each assigned vehicle. The team captain must provide positive leadership, thus enabling the work of the team to be conducted in a fair and impartial manner". Section 2 page 2 A 3. QUALIFICATIONS OF AN AACA NATIONAL JUDGE "TO QUALIFY AS AN AACA NATIONAL JUDGE, THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET"

3. " Must have the ability to be fair, honest, understanding and reasonable when judging a vehicle". Has nothing to do with what kind of person I am although I would like to hear that from these other individuals.

From here on in I will continue to support my specialty clubs, concourse shows and charity events. I am trying hard not to take this episode personal, but then how do you not, when someone trained by the same system that is supposed to support our hobby makes callus and unfounded statements ; not so much intended at the car but also at my character by his statement "what kind of person would do this to a car."

I did not know I was that "kind" of person, only a fun guy who was present to enjoy a day with his car and his wife and give the spectators a nice car to look at and enjoy. Isn't that what this hobby is all about? It was further unfortunate that my spouse had to hear all this as she was also horrified and embarrassed by the fact that in such a professional organization, something like this could happen for all in the vicinity of my car to hear.

Thank You again Dale for your posting and all of you that have tried to help me (Judges and Car Owners alike). Let's see if the mangers take responsibility for these individuals.

Don

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If someone wants to leave the AACA over a judging decission , i am not sure its a bad thing. We need to reconize the systems isn't perfect but its the best we have, regardless of what we think some of judging is subjective.

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As a 3rd party, who knows the Car very well, the Owner of this Mustang was Robbed.

The judging was flawed.

The Mustang in question?

It is everything it should be as a 64 1/2 Mustang, Correctly detailed with a minor increase in the

Gloss of the engine compartment paint, But it is Correct, Numbers Matching, and the owner spent a lot of time and money to make the car what it is.

Hell, it started out as a beautiful car. I saw it then. Many times.

It should have easily earned a Junior.

The owner was robbed.

RedReb aka RKjr.

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Skippro 55,

Judging will never be perfect because we have to use human beings as judges. Whenever we get perfect robot judges, I don't think I want to be around (and don't expect it in my lifetime).

I supervise police officers, and contrary to popular belief, they too are human. They sometimes do the job perfectly... and sometimes they do not. I get to referee whenever a citizen is unhappy with the actions of my troops. Nobody is perfect. Everybody has to understand this and be adult about it. Mistakes will occur. Differences of opinions will occur. Different interpretation will occur anytime there are any sort of rules. (Why do you think we have attorneys and judges?) The key to life is to learn to disagree agreeably. If it were my car, I would take it to another show and see what happened. If anybody is going to get mad quit a club, and go away because everything did not go there way once, it seems to me that they are going to miss out on a whole lot of great stuff in life.

As I already said, any judge making loud derogatory comments about a car or its owner should be barred from judging in the future. I suspect that it will be done in this case.

With that said, I don't think that the judge necessarily made the wrong call on the judging part of it, just by the loud comments. From the owner's own posts, we have been told that the engine compartment has multiple parts that have a finish that is more glossy than the original finish as it came from the factory. The key terms from the judging manual are:

A vehicle may be painted any authentic

color available for the model year of that

vehicle. Lacquer may be used in place of

enamel and enamel may be used in place

of lacquer, if final finish appears as it did

originally. Any type finish (lacquer, enamel,

acrylics, etc.) may be used <span style="font-weight: bold">if the final finish

simulates the original finish</span>

If paint does not simulate the original finish, it is incorrect, not overrestored. This interpretation of the rules, would justify the deductions that were apparently taken. It does not matter who owns a car, how much time or how much money was spent on the car, what matters is how the judges at a particular meet score the car based on what they see and their understanding of the rules, and how that score compares with the scores of the other cars competing in that particular class on that particular day.

You can quit and go away if you want to.... or you can stay, participate and lobby to change the rules if you don't like them. You can't change the system from the outside... only from the inside.

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You know Ex, I'm a firm believer that restoration and judging should go hand in hand. I think car owners should be judges, and judges should be car owners. I feel as a judge after doing restoration work myself, I have a better perspective on things because I can comprehend the work that goes into these cars as I'm judging it. As a person who is doing restoration work, I feel that the knowledge that I have gained judging has allowed me the opportunity to restore a vehicle with more authenticity because as a judge, I know some of the things that they are going to look at, so I know where to focus my attention.

I'm not saying that every judge must own a car, and every car owner should be a judge, but I'm a firm believer that if you've done both, you have a much better concept of the system, and if you've had experience doing both, you have the opportunity to reap dividends.

I still believe that we are all humans, we all make mistakes, and as judges, car owners can become victim of human error. I still and probably always will disagree with AACA's judging system, but that doesn't stop me from judging or bringing vehicles out. I feel as a vehicle owner, the owners have a right to know where their shortcomings are. If the judges make an assumption that something is wrong, they don't ask the owner, they take the deduction, and they're wrong, the vehicle owner suffers, and they have no method to dispute it. On some of the vehicles that are out there, the specifics on a lot of these vehicles aren't out there, and the information isn't being shared.

The one thing that everyone has to keep in perspective that neither judges, nor car owners walk on water. Both are equally as important, and without either group, you have no show. I still have yet to see a whole lot of information on the specifics of these vehicles (orange or black air cleaner, gloss or flat finish, overspray, etc.)

Eventually if we can get the online CJE's developed and implemented, everyone will be on the same sheet of music, and a lot of the information pertaining to these discrepancies will be eliminated, and when issues like this arise, they can go right on the web and see the way things are supposed to be.

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It still boils down in part to if it is correct as to how it came from the factory or correct according to the rules of the MCA. We don't follow their rules just as they don't follow ours.

If the car is in fact correct according to factory documentation skipro55 should write a polite letter of protest and submit it with a copy of the score sheet that was sent to him. If it were me and my car I would also send copies of any photos taken at shows before the Hershey show and at the Hershey show if there are any, to show the car had not been altered, and let them look for themselves. He can protest on here but it won't have the same impact in the same place that a well constructed letter will to the people that can review this and try to figure out what happened. And if his car was incorrectly judged and he was "robbed", then they should rectify the mistake and send him a letter of apology and the trophy he deserves. If they find that his car did not make the point spread on the awards, he should be told that then that is that. All it takes is a perfect car to knock a really great car out of a first place award.

And the judge that behaved in such a horrible manner should be reprimanded in writing. And if it happens a second time that should be the end of their judging career.

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Agreed, but a lot of the documentation isn't there when it comes to orphan vehicles. In the case of the Mustang, it should be very easy.

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An observation and a question or two: I don't equate a "milky white finish in the paint" with either semi-gloss or gloss. Sounds plain wrong to me, but then I haven't seen it. Apparently the MCA judges agreed. Somewhere in this thread the statement was made that the paint was "semi-gloss but shiny"? Would someone please explain that to me? Suppose, for the sake of argument, that threr were two cars in the class, both with identical scores except that one had the correct semi-gloss thruout while the other had "semi-gloss but shiny paint with a white milky finish" because the owner thought it made the car "show better". How would you score them? The same? One is obviously more correct than the other. Shouldn't the owner of the properly restored example be rewarded for his efforts? In my mind "over restoration" means gloss paint that is maybe glossier than original but not gloss where semi-gloss is specified. We deduct for chrome where nickle is correct. You can polish gloss paint to any level shine you want. We don't deduct for this "over restoration". Isn't shiny semi-gloss an oxymoron? No excuse for a judge acting as this particular one apparently did but the car may still have scored as it should have.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't shiny semi-gloss an oxymoron?</div></div>

It sure would seem so to me. Just because a person uses a paint that is technically correct (ie. semi-gloss where semi-gloss is called for), if they do something to it that changes the final appearance of the paint that makes it incorrect. Several places in the Judges Manual address this issue in regard to paint and metal finishes.

I still have not seen any comparison of the car in question to the factory specifications rather than to the MCA rules. But then if the owner does not have factory literature to compare the car to and restored it only to MCA rules then he may not know where it might be failing in the AACA method of judging.

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Just learning about the forum. Glad you plan to attend our show in Binghamton. We are the carousel capital of the world,and have some realy great plans. What ever you do, dont leave here with out trying a speedie.You will be hooked for life. Im realy looking forward to meeting Susan. I think she may have judged my car in VA. If so, she should have been the capt. Best job I've seen in my ten years with AACA. Dick

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