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Re: judging question on 64 1/2 Mustang


59chevyguy
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Pictures of each area would help people help you. Novaman can probably walk you through posting photos. I know how to post them from my computer but yours may be different. It really is not hard to do.

While they don't put down how many points you lost you can use the judging sheet to get an idea. No points off is "perfect". Maximum points off is if it is missing (except for body components-that is higher), in such bad shape that it cannot be used for it's intended purpose or incorrectly restored (chromed bumper rather than nickel comes to mind). Between those two are the gray areas of condition and workmanship.

Make a copy of the sheet they sent you so that you can mark on it and honestly walk around your car and you judge it. See how many points you come up with.

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Easiest way to post multiple photos is if you have your own website. Put the photos on there. Then when you post, click the Instant UBB Code - URL and place the web address for the photo.

Too complacated? email me the photos chevyiiman@earthlink.net I've got several freebie websites that I'm not using and I'll put the photos there. I've got an AACA region meeting to go to this evening but if you send them, I'll get them on later tonight.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Light: Side Parking

</div></div>

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> didn't think 64 1/2 had side parking lights. I beleive that started in 68. I wonder what that could mean.

The other thing i noticed from the engine picture is the hood hinges apear to be painted black.

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Thanks Sparky,

I don't know where the side parking lights came from either. Same with the fan shrowd which there was none. The 641/2 had painted hinges where as the 65 did not. Thanks for observing. Sent some pics to Novaman who is helping to get them posted for me. Look forward to hearing from you.

Don

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I just looked at the photos that novaman posted, I knew he would <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, and my guess on the "side parking lights" is that they are the amber lights under the front bumper. They may not be on the side but they are parking lights. The forms are generic for so many years/models that sometimes we have to fit the car to the form and not nit-pick about where on the car the parking lights etc. actually are. Otherwise there would be a ton of stuff under "other".

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After giving it some more thought, AACA hasn't been real specific on gloss versus flat colors. If you remember right, lacquer has just about disappeared, and a lot of people are using basecoat/clearcoat. Basecoat/clearcoat makes a big difference in the luster and shine of the paint on a vehicle. With that in mind, the glossy paint should not be a deduction.

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You're welcome.

While I was double checking all the links on my site for the photos last night, I heard the siern on the firehouse go off. I got the news this morning that my girlfriend's cousin was killed in a car wreck, which happened at the time the siern sounded. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Viewing is Monday evening.

Post was changed to correct who was killed in the wreck. The cousin's girlfriend was severly injured.

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I see 20 places where deuctions were made. Since AACA doesn't do half points the max the car could have scored was 380 assuming all the deductions were for a single point. Could be tough to get a First at Hershey with 380, depending on the class. I wouldn't assume the deductions were related to the level of gloss.

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David, the beauty of the forum is that I can edit my post too <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I'm still sorry for the loss, but glad that it wasn't Andrea. I guess at this point, we'll finally get to meet her in Binghampton in June.

BOY WAS THAT AN OOPS!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That almost rates up there to when I told shoprat to put an electric heater in the garage and tell the wife that utililty bills are higher due to using the Christmas lights!! Then to find out that shoprat was Susan and I let the cat out of the bag <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I felt so bad for you, I was almost going to call you up at home to see how you were doing. Thanks for clarifying this issue. I went as far as sending Howard Scotland and e-mail so that he knew about it in case he didn't catch it on the forum.

Howard, if you're out there, I was wrong, but don't shoot the messenger. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> David fell asleep and drooled on his keyboard <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am sorry for your loss David, but please accept my humor with good intentions.

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<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Sorry folks, Long day yesterday. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> It was my girlfriend's cousin that was killed and his girlfriend was injured. I'll fix that typo. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Andrea (my girlfriend) was having a tough time dealing with it. I finally was able to get her to go to the state fair with me to get her mind off things for a while. When I wrote the post we had just gotten back and I was exhausted. I was so tired I actually fell asleep in the chair at the computer.

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yeah. I still can't believe I screwed up that post so badly. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I've been sick since I got back from Hershey. That's why I didn't make it to the NC Region Fall meet on Saturday. I was coughing so bad there was no way I was going to be able to sit through a board meeting. Yesterday, I was doing better. Still coughing some today. Hopefully it won't be too bad this evening while at the veiwing. I'm leaving work early to get Andrea and her mom and be there at 6. I work with a slightly distant cousin of Andrea and the one killed and he's planning on being there later in the evning.

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Ok i dont know much about 64.5 i just assumed it was the same as the others. I wonder about that undercarage deduction. Was that red what was originally under there? Not that i think it deserves a deduction as i know years and plants varied but mine had more of an orange look and was flatter. The rest of the deductions i havent got a clue, you might try asking other 64.5 experts to check it out those areas and see what they find.

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is that first pic from the Adirondack Nationals in lake George NY?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got the whole group of photos setup on a webpage so you can click a thumnail and view the larger version.

Complete set of Mustang Photos

Here are a couple:

102_2775.JPG

102_2780.JPG

102_2785.JPG

again, Complete set of Mustang Photos </div></div>

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My knowledge of the process was it was suppose to be red oxide primer with overspray in alot of places. I call it the sloppy undercarriage. </div></div>

On 65-68's, undercarriage was either red oxide or gray primer. Engine compartment blackout faded into the primer in the trans tunnel. Wheel well blackout showed overspray onto the primer as well. Concours undercarriages were less forgiving and not sloppy as originals. 64.5's may have been different as I understand that they had some specific unique things associated with them that were changed at the beginning of 65 production.

BTW nice car.

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Guess I am still not done with this as the hairs on my arms just stood up straight.

I have a problem where you purport that you see 20 places where deductions could be made. (BTW, this is not even my car)

As I was perusing other Posts on the AACA forums I came across this statement on a Post in the General Posting Forum under "Clones at AACA":

quote: "The ultimate award of a given vehicle usually comes from the marque club that knows that make and year and model, down to the fastener heads, hose clamps,underhood finishes and QC man grease paint marks. No car restored without strict adherence to originality score high with most of these groups.

The AACA judges are good, and know a great deal about many cars, but none of us knows everything about every given make and model down to minutia."

So in reading all the Posts since I started this, no one who responded here is even remotely comfortable with trying to find out where deductions on a 64 1/2 Mustang were taken. Most everything here resorts back to 1965's which were different. It looks like the margue club, aka MCA (Mustang Club of America), scored this car at 685 out of 700 so how can someone say without reservartion that there are 20 places for deductions. If I am correct, Don (Skipro) showed the Hershey Head Judge his "margue MCA judging sheets" during the judging process to answer some of his concerns.

Something is definitely out of whack here.

Steven

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It is entirely possible that the car is 100% correct technically and that all of the deductions were taken for condition. A chip here, a chip there, crud on the carb, that sort of thing. In that case what the car scored at a specialty meet would be irrelevant. AACA judges the cars as they appear at a particular show on a particular day. With 4 judges taking deductions in several categories I suspect that condition caused the loss of points, not originality.

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Without being on the show field that day and judging the car, it is dangerous attempting to "reverse engineer" or pick apart the judging score.

If I were in the owner's position I would go over the entire car with a fresh, unbiased, set of eyes, make any necessary corrections and give it a second shot at a National meet. I would attend that meet with factory documentation as it relates to 64-1/2 Mustangs vs 65's. When the judging team leader introduces himself to me prior to judging, I would advise him that since the vehicle is a 64-1/2 it has a number of elements that are unique to it and that I have available documentation should he have any question of correctness.

It is understandable that you want answers to why the car didn't score what you believe it should but the reality is, as you state, you are not the vehicle's owner, and if the owner feels strongly about how the vehicle scored at Hershey she/he should write a letter to the VP of judging.

Regardless, the vehicle is very nice looking.

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As far as I am concerned and I think I have said this in my responses to the posts on this forum the judging process in both organizations try to achieve the same and that is the authenticity of the automobile as it left the factory. No need to knock MCA, NCRS, CTCI or any other specialty club as the fact of the matter and I have held off saying this but the problem is with the lead judge that judged this car and it is AACA that has the black eye because the representative sent out to view this car had his own opinions of the rules of AACA judging, did not provide enough information as to why the deductions were taken, lack of coutesy and respect and a complete lack of understanding of paint finishes (ie didn't know the difference between flat black and semi gloss as well as telling me my engine compartment should be flat black). THIS IS NOT A SPECIALTY CLUB PROBLEM BUT AN AACA problem!!! The engine compartment where there were 23 highligted areas is the direct result of this interpretation and probably some 40 points in deductions due to semi gloss vs flat and maybe a little too much gloss. Here is the judging criteria for an MCA engine compartment concours trailered which may be similar in nature to AACA but perhaps a little more detailed than AACA. Both are trying to accomplish the same:

Engine components to be painted:

641/2 - 65 "All, black block, heads, intake, oil pan, timing cover, water pump, oil dipstick, thermostat housing, bypass hose and clamps. Harmonic balancer may be block color or natural".

641/2 and 65 - 289

"Gold valve covers and air cleaner assembly (except HIPO). Black snorkel and heat riser.

Semi Gloss Black Components:

"Fan, fan pulley, crankshaft pulley, generator bracket and adjustment arm"

Semi - Gloss Black or Natural Components: Engine mount brackets, P/S bracket, Eaton P/S pump body".

Engine Compartment to be natural:

641/2 - 65 Non A/C

Eaton Pump reservoir(silver), bell housing, accelerator rod and linkage, distributor hold - down bracket, fan spacer or fan clutch (if equipped), alternator and generator spacers, P/S spacer and automatic transmission dipstick handle. Natural paint mat be used as long as part retains original appearance".

Qua;ity of workmanship, condition and cleanliness in every section!!!! up to a 4 point deduction

Carburetor and Intake Manifol: "Proper type for year and engine. 641/2 - 66 HOPO has manual choke. All others have automatic choke. V8 with automatic transmission has dash - pot. 641/2 - 65 automatic V8's with kick down levers must have black return spring mounted to a bracket from center top driver's side valve cover".

Again I must stree up to a 4 point deduction for quality of workmanship, condition and cleanliness.

Distributor and Cap:

"Proper design and natural finish. Fomoco or Autolite. Correct for year and model. 641/2 distributor must ahve oiler. Correct style vacuum advance with threaded fitting".

Spark Plugs and Wires:

"Wires 641/2 - black with black Fomoco boots. 65 -66 Fomoco or Autolite with black or orange boots. Prooerly routed with correct attaching brackets. Thermactor cars must use correct routing brackets. HIPO wires are marked SX (steel core non resistor)"

Spark Plugs "Autolite BF-82 260 & 289"

Exhaust manifolds:

"Natural cast iron appearance (paint acceptable). May show engine color overspray. 641/2- 65 tab lcks. 66 - tab (early) or ramp lock-lock bolt and washers. Locking tabs must be used to lock bolt in place. Washer behind lock tab."

Fuel lines and attching parts:

Rigid lines: "Original configuration and finish, in priginal location and proper attaching parts. All V-8 routed either front or rear of distributor. 641/2 HIPO must be mounted in front".

Line Clamp: 641/2 - V8 fuel line clamp is two piece Fairlane style with machine scre holding top portion in place. 65 - 66 - correct style for year. Base of clamp is painted block color.

Oil Filter: "Engine block color, red or gold rotunda"

Fender Bolts: Original color and style. Correct phosphate and oil finish. Painted or clear coated bolts are not allowed. Star washers, disc washers, or combination acceptable.

Inner Fender Bolts:

"Semi - gloss black or correct phosphate and oil finish. Installed in either direction. Must be consistent".

Horns: "Semi - gloss black. 641/2 - large style mounted on lower diagonal frame brace. Must have horn relay below voltage regulator. 65 - 66 - original design and original location with correct mounting bracket".

Firewall and Inner Fender Panels:

"Painted semi - gloss black. One piece export brace, black, on most export and T5. Must have firewall reinforcement bracket welded in place on cowl and 4 evenly spaced mounting bolts".

Hood Hinges and Springs:

"641/2 - early 65 - semi gloss black hinges and springs. 65 - 66 phosphate and oil finish"

Decals: Service specification decal. Autolite SpatkPlug decal. Air cleaner service instruction decal. V8 may have Front air cleaner decal except 641/2 289 - 4V and early 260. Oil cap decal optional. Battery test decal filled out.

Wiring: proper gauge and color code. Mounted in priginal location with proer attching clips. Black plastic wrapping as original. 65-early 66 GT - fog light wiring integral to headlight harness. 66 External.

Undercarriage:

Non Undercoated Cars: Undercarriage primer - red oxide, dark gray or black with siome body color fading to tunnel. Convertible plate black or neutral.

tires

V8 Except High Performance 289

6.50 X 14 nylon BSW or WSW

6.95 X 14 4PR rayon BSW

6.95 X 14 4pr rayon WSW

6.95 X 14 nylon BSW or WSW

6.95 X 14 nylon Dual red band

This car was clean through and through on the day of the show including wiping down tires to get that god awful grass and dirt off. The quarters were cleaned inside and out, as well as the fender well and rockers. This is not a dirty car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So please do not even think that.

So, I was asked to judge my own car based on the limited judging sheet -- here is my review of the highlighted items.

Engine Compartment : It is correct, clean, painted the correct colors with the correct options, witing tags plugs etc. I have to say 0 point deduction: Semi gloss paint was used but it is shiny. Under AACA rules is this considered over restoration or non authentic. If over restoration than 0 point deduction. The block, manifolds, air cleaner, valve covers, power steering, volt regulator, alternator et al are correct part and color.

The doors and quarters on this car are straight and there are no chips and loss of luster in the paint. The paint shows with some orange peel which is required by MCA. I believe AACA considers no orange peel as over restoration. This week end three friends of mine who show cars in AACA, Chevy clubs and ISCA were asked to look at these quarters and doors and they could not find anything wrong with them.

The splash pans I have no idea. they are correct, not damaged and painted and fit correctly.

The car has no fan shrowd and should not have one. Why were points taken off for that??

The side marking lots or parking lights as the judging sheet is referred to are correct, not scratched, fit and have correct Fomoco logos.

The inner fenders have semi gloss with correct serial numbers of the car and match to the data plate.

In summary how would you like to go a show and listen to someone point out to two other judges in a very loud tone so other car owners and spectators could hear the following " Why would anyone do this to a car?" And then follow up with the owner and tell him he has a major problem here!! What an example to an apprentice judge if they were present judging my car.

You all know that it costs alot to attend these shows and it just isn't a matter of saying "bring it back again" or "it's is not a life or death situation". Well in my mind it is! Too much time, money and effort goes into restoring and maintaining these cars to have something like this happen.

So the million dollar question AACA is this over restoration, incorrect restoration or non authetic? If it is incorrect restoration or non authentic then this car does not belong in AACA and someone do me the courtesy and tell me so and save me alot of money. I have no intention of ever changing that engine compartment!

OR

This story and events sound like a peer judge show -- Did we judge a car so our friends could win? Now that couldn't possibly happen could it???

AND

There was no 400 point car -- Trust me, including mine.

We'll never find out the real story here but I will say this. I exposed my car at Hershey, allowed pictures to be posted on the web site and have tried to offer evryone how the car car had been judged in the past. So where is the judge? Where are my scores and comments? Should I trailer the the car to headquarters for a private viewing? The system has definitely failed here and big time!

Thanks again to all of you that have tried to help. I appreciate it.

Don

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Good advice Solid Axle. I certainly would not expect you to overturn a judges decision but I think it is important that members know what took place here. I for one do not want a screaming match on the show field. As an FYI I offered my judging sheets from MCA and was told that it didn't supply enough information. Well semi gloss paint is not flat black paint even though it specified it in several places.

Nice Vet, Love the color! Saw one like that for sale a fews years back, beautiful car but unfortunately the numbers didn't match.

Don

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Here is a guess.

I apparently never looked at the engine compartment and under carriage of a 64 1/2 or early 65 before. My Mustang knowledge started in 1968 when I bought a 66. When I first saw your pictures I would have said all the colors and a few other thing were wrong (if I didn't know the MCA background on the car). The Mustang judges are usually good but could they have assumed a later car and took off for the paint colors. Here you would have the potential for much bigger deductions.

In a future AACA show I would go with factory documentation and when the Captain introduces himself, tell him you have full documentation for the color scheme and anything else they have questions on.

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Skippro55, I understand that you are disappointed, and perhaps angry. Obviously you have a legitimate concern assuming that they MCA judge overheard correctly what was related to you. Any Judge making such a comment was wrong to do so.

Novaman pointed out that the actual point spread could have been very close on the MCA scoring and the AACA scoring, assuming there was a high scoring car in your class, which appears to be true with there being One First Junior, Two 2nd Juniors and One 3rd Junior, in your class.

Class 34A

First Junior

1966 Ford Mustang..........................Brian J. McEvilly, Yardley, PA

Second Junior

1965 Ford Mustang........................Donald S. Rinaldi, Mansfield, MA

1966 Ford Mustang..............Charles L. Bailey, Reading, PA

Third Junior

1966 Ford Mustang...........................Thomas L. Gipson, Raleigh, NC

I am not a Mustang expert at all. I prefer my good old fashioned Model A Ford. I don't know if you are a member of a local AACA Chapter or Region, but it has helped me out significantly. I would offer this advice. I would suggest that you find a mentor who knows more about old cars than you do, preferably with significant judging experience. In my local chapter, we have such an individual (who happens to own a Mustang). Have him or her go over your car for you with a judging sheet in hand. A friend will tell you everything looks wonderful. [color:"blue"]A TRUE friend will give you honest suggestions to make the car better. Take notes of everything that needs attention. Then make the small improvements suggested, and have "the judge" come back over and go over the car again. Keep doing this and you will soon have a Senior Award on your car too. I thought I had everything in great shape and invited my friend over to go over the car. I was amazed at all that he found that I just could not see until he pointed it out to me. It is difficult to put your ego aside and accept positive criticism. It is imperative to do so to make the car the best that it can be. We did this before I got my 1st Junior at Asheville and also before I went to Hershey and earned the Senior Award. I hope that you understand what I am trying to say and also the manner in which it is intended. In any car, Good luck in the future with your car.

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Excellent response, Matt.

I echo your comments. My case scenario was, "if I can see it, a judge can see it".

In 1998, received a 2nd Junior. In 1999 received a 2nd Junior. In late 1999, saw the light. Became serious about the "highlighted judging gigs".

Took the sheet to the car over the Winter of 1999. Looked at each highlighted area with a fine tooth comb, saw gigs, corrected them, and, the rest is history.

Takes time, the system is not perfect, but, it is the best system within the hobby. The "system" encourages one to do your homework within our hobby, not to take short-cuts, then on the big day, hope a judge on the show field is blind, or, ignorant of "as it left the factory".

Regards and "Congrats on your Hershey Senior award".

Peter J.

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Matt, I had two guys from the local region here that contacted me, and my Dad and I went over and looked at both cars. Both really nice restored cars. One has been done for a little while and the other had been done for for about two months. We came up with about 20 to 40 points. The one car would have lost 10 points simply becuase of some bolts with stress marks. The one car had a fender alignment problem that the onwer didn't really realize how severe it was and then I pointed out that the only way it fix it was to "unrepair" the repair and reshape the fender to the correct contour then refinish it. As it turned out, both cars got thier 1st juniors at Asheville.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... the problem is with the lead judge that judged this car and it is AACA that has the black eye because the representative sent out to view this car had his own opinions of the rules of AACA judging, did not provide enough information as to why the deductions were taken, lack of coutesy and respect and a complete lack of understanding of paint finishes (ie didn't know the difference between flat black and semi gloss as well as telling me my engine compartment should be flat black). THIS IS NOT A SPECIALTY CLUB PROBLEM BUT AN AACA problem!!! </div></div>

If you notice, the score sheets are not designed to include information as to why deductions were taken. Some years at Hershey judging teams have judged 20-25 cars. As it is, we aren't to take over 10 min per car, as a general rule of thumb. I've come off the field after 4 hours of judging. 25 cars at 10 min each is 4.13 hours. If the sheets were designed for details of deductions and they were filled out on each car, now we would probably take another 6 minutes per car (1.5 minutes for each judge to list every deduction description on his sheet and then the team captain to write it down too) if you've got 25 cars to judge that's an additional 38 minutes. So we are up to over 4.5 hours for a judge to judge a meet like Hershey.

I don?t know if you happened to look at any of the other posts about Hershey, but one of the big complaints was lack of food vendors. I believe the biggest majority of them were from spectators and people showing cars. Food vendors really don?t matter to the judges because we can?t eat until after we are done judging.

A judge?s typical day at Hershey begins with arrival for breakfast about 7AM (which we had to pay for when we signed up to judge). After or in some cases while finishing breakfast, Meet and National Personal are introduced; awards for judging credit levels, and awards for judging at all the meets that year are given. Then we receive the instructions for the meet. Finally, we get released and head for the show field. Depending on how long the breakfast was we might have 45min to 1.5 hr to view some cars. About 9:45-9:50, we?ll meet up with our team. At 10AM we start judging. If you?re lucky like I was in 2005, it was raining and only 5 cars out if 12 showed up. We were done by 11AM. It took us a little longer than it should have, but I was a team captain with a fairly new judge that I had to watch, plus I was a team member short which meant I also had to judge too. The other extreme was several years ago I had 24 cars. That?s 4 hours of judging, and it was a sunny about 90° day. We started at 10, now it?s after 2pm when we finished. Now you want to consume more time by the judges giving more details adding probably another Half hour 45 min. that?d be 2:45 when we?d get done judging. Now we get to go stand by the Judge?s administration area until our team captain gets done turning in everything. That can take who knows how long. I?ve waited a half hour (noted time) before, maybe longer other years but didn?t note time to be able to make that claim. So now it?s 3:15. Now I finally get to eat.

My point is this; yes it is expensive to restore a car. (I?m working on several myself). Yes, it is expensive to go to the show. The judges share some of those same expenses (depends on accommodations and vehicle as to the percentage). Judges have to show up or lose credit, car owners don?t have to (both are out the registration fee). Judges have to sometimes spend up to approx. 4hours out there judging in the weather, without the opportunity to seek shade, or get a bite to eat when hungry, or heaven forbid (considering the lines this year) the need to use a restroom. Car owners have those freedoms. It would be much easier on the judges to say the heck with it and come view the cars and not go through all the hassles of breakfast and the lack of shade, lunch, restrooms to judge the cars. Not much of a show now without the judges is it? The judges need the car owners and much as the car owners need the judges. That is what makes the show.

Yes, the team captain may have had the lack of courtesy and respect, but that is no reason to condemn all of AACA for one judge?s actions. It may have left a bad impression but I think you have found that those on here that judge feel that this guy was wrong in his actions. And we?re mystified about the deductions too.

As for your yelling (all caps) about this being an AACA problem and not a specialty club problem. Nobody ever claimed the problem was with the specialty club. You?re the only one really harping about the specialty club because you got a first there and not here. Novaman did the fairest score comparison you can do between two different systems and asked some question to try to learn more about how their system works. Also you listed the areas points were taken and there were 14 items there and then your last post you claimed ?The engine compartment where there were 23 highligted areas is the direct result of this interpretation and probably some 40 points in deductions due to semi gloss vs flat and maybe a little too much gloss.? Think you might need to relax so you can count.

One last thought, if I were a judge and divulged a score, I would get ban from judging at future national meets. This being the case, how do you know there were no 400 point cars in your class? Or was it in your opinion, there were no 400 point cars. And referring back to previous paragraph, how do you know that it was 40 points? Could have been only 23 total which means the top car could have had a 12 point deduction, judged exactly as yours was (including ?glossiness?) and yours still would have gotten a second. I?m not claiming that it did or didn?t deserve anything here, just what mathematically could happened

Before you go throwing out all the apples because a possible bad one, I?d give it a try again. Who knows, he may have just been having a bad day (although that doesn?t excuse the behavior).

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In my last post I did specify it was an MCA judging criteria but I shold have highlighted that. I was trying to get across the point that I am in the dark on the # number of points deducted in the engine compartment which I averaged out at two per highlight. My reason for doing this is you can tell if it is the right part, color etc. You can't tell if the parts are damaged, dented etc. so you'll have to take my word on that. For example the 641/2 should have a generator and not an alternator. The generator should be painted semi gloss black. The sixty five should have an alternator. Not sure of the color but would have to check my book if that is important. My other intention was to get an understanding on over restoration, non authentic or incorrect to determine the point deductions. At any rate non of us will be able to figure this out. My opinion on the overall engine compartment is the deductions for gloss (maybe a bad assumption but I'll bet you two steaks in Harrisburg that was what the deductions were for). I really don't want to go to the next show and have to debate whether my engine compartment is over restoration, non authentic or incorrect, just not my style and truly I shouldn't have to debate that. Got a little wound up yesterday especially seeing comments about nicks, chips and dirt: just rubbed me the wrong way. Had a bad hair day! Read too many posts! Have a long way to go with MCA to get my grill medallion -- it will take me years to accumulate the necessary points -- pretty tough process. BTW, If you read my previous posts I thought I was pretty complimentary about all you judges out there. You do something that I can't do and would not be good at. Myabe we should compensate you all at say $10 per car. Wouldn't be a big tab for the owner at registration time, won't make you rich but cover some of your costs. Or provide you with a blanket to roll around the ground on. If you all do figure this over retoration, non authentic or just plain incorrect restoration thing out please let me know. If you need info on MCA I'll be glad to get you the judging criteria sent to you.

Thanks Again,

Sorry if I insulted you judges out there -- you do do a great job.

Don

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I fail to understand how you arrived at the conclusion that each deduction on the engine compartment averaged 2 points. You have no evidence whatsoever to assume that. You could have lost the first with only a 1 point deduction in all of the highlighted areas shown on your scoresheet if there was a 400 point car in the class. I just don't think you have enough info to draw the conclusions you have drawn. I would love to see the car. How many Mustangs were there in your class going for the first?

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First off, I am not insulted at all. You had a negative experience and that can stay with you awhile. Hopefully in the future, if you will let us, we can turn that around.

Okay, what the AACA goes by as absolute documentation is from the factory. No other documentation is taken without question. Even dealer options, if they were not authorized by the factory, are not acceptable. Some dealers would put after-market items on cars to please the buyer. So truthfully the best to have is the factory kind.

And this is not a plug for the AACA Library, but they do have a wide selection of that kind of information. Copies are available at a nominal cost. You can contact them and they will look up what you want, make copies and send them to you.

There are lots of dealers of factory information. Other 64 1/2 Mustang owners may be willing to let you make copies of factory information they have.

Now the question is, how does your car compare to factory literature and not how does it compare to MCA rules? For AACA competition you have to let go of what the MCA says is the standard or what is okay.

The AACA has a few things that they allow for safety purposes that other clubs may not allow. And parts that can be stainless steel or painted with aluminum paint to simulate cadmium plating as long as the final finish actually simulates the appearance of cadmium plating.

If you would like to have a copy of the 2006 Judges Manual to read through I will send you an extra copy that I have. Send me a PM with the address to mail it to and I will send it to you. Having one in your hands where you can mark pages that apply to your car might help you to understand how our system works.

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...and judges aren't always right. With the system the way it is, you may be penalized for something where you are right and the judge is wrong, but the car owner is still the one who gets penalized.

At Dover, there was a friend of ours parked next to us with a Dover truck that had a wooden bed that was left in a natural finish. The car owner did have a discussion with the team captain, and it was basically an issue where he lost points for having a natural wooden finish in the bed, and not high gloss or painted. This was a case where the truck is so rare that there is no documentation to prove the truck right or wrong, there is nothing in the AACA library pertaining to the truck, but when the Team Captain made the remark "well we would assume that it should be painted."

If you turn back the clock to the old Benny Hill show, you'll remember that "when you assume, you make an @ss out of u and me." That judging team didn't know anymore than the owner did, and the owner got screwed.

In the case with us at Hershey, if I lost points for having the red frame under my Ford fire truck, the judges were wrong. I have the photos to back up that the truck frame orginally being red, and I have photos of three other trucks (two which are still original) within 50 numbers from mine that also have frames painted red. No one at any time ever questioned me about the frame color, but if I lost points for it, then the judges were wrong, but due to the system, I'll never know.

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