Re: judging question on 64 1/2 Mustang

[59chevyguy]

Mr. Moskowitz Please feel free to provide info on this for me.

I am asking this for a friend who is actually broken down on his way home from

the Hershey meet.

He has absolutely one of the Best 1964 Mustang Convertible's I have ever seen.

The car scored 685 out of 700 at a National Mustang Meet several months ago.

He was attending Hershey for a First Junior. He did not get it. I am in disbelief!!!!

He was told he had a serious problem with the car.

His inner fenders were too glossy and not semi-gloss.

OK, so was that enough to take away a First Junior?

He said there is no possible way this car could not have scored 380 or better and

be within the required 10 points of the highest car even with a little more gloss than maybe acceptable. The point deduction should have been very minor and fallen into an over restored situation and somewhat allowed by the rules of AACA.

But for him not to get his First Junior someone would have had to deduct

for "non-authentic" which the car is positively not in any way shape or form. It was an unmolested

car before restoration.

Someone help me out here as I am ready to do an engine compartment on a car so where does this fall within the judging guidelines - non-authentic or color change??? or none of the above just over-restored?

Thanks in advance and keep up the terrific work at AACA.

Steven

[Jim Bollman]

I would guess there was more wrong then the inner fenders and there was a very high pointing car in that class. He can ask for a copy of the judging sheet to see where he lost points.

[novaman]

Mr. Moskowitz isn't in charge of the judging. Your friend needs to write a nice, polite letter to Vice President Class Judging, Randy D. Rutherford, Sr., 2925 Lower Seese Hill Rd., Canadensis, PA 18325, requesting a copy of the judging form.

As for the not making the first junior, there most likely was a couple of minor things. If his car made a 685 out of 700 he car is actually capable of making a first junior in a 400 point system but is borderline if there happens to be a 400 point car there.

685 points ÷ 700 point system = .9785714 (97.85%)

.9785714 × 400 point system = 391.42856 which would round to 391 Points

If you go the other way presuming that there was a 400 point car and your friend was 11 points behind (389) going back to the other system would have been 681 out of 700 (97.25%). My point is that based on percentages, your friends car could have been score pretty close in both systems, with a difference of .6%. Personally, for two groups of human beings with different backgrounds (Mustang Judges being Mustang experts and AACA judges judging all makes on the show field and not necessarily all 5 team members being Mustang experts) that is pretty dog gone close. And remember, next time out with that car, the car that scored high enough to cost him the award because of the spread will be a Sr. car and he won't be competing against it.

[Restorer32]

Not to nitpick but there is no such thing as a '64 1/2 Mustang in AACA judging. There were no Mustangs titled as '64s I believe. What you have is an early '65.

[59chevyguy]

I personally know his car but I was not in Hershey this year so I cannot attest to what did or did not happen, only he can tell the whole story.

I told him to go ahead and write the letter to the individual mentioned above and tell his side of it. These shows cost a bundle when you are hauling 800 miles round trip so I think, like most of you probably think, he desweves the chance to be heard.

What he mentioned to me is that the other Mustang (s) going for a Jr. were

nice but not fully show quality restorations. This is not to knock anyone's car as we all think ours is the best and we should.

His car is a completely restored car done by a quality restorer of Mustangs. There is nothing major out of whack with his car other than the "too much gloss" on the fenders. This is a trailered only car and that is a preference enjoyed by few and respected by most.

If I am correct there is no 1964 AACA class for Mustangs. His is a 64 and from my recolection they were referred to as 64 1/2 since they came out mid year from Fomoco.

So I will let him know what has taken place on this post and he can take it from here.

Thank you to all who are trying to help out with this most unfortunate episode.

Knowing this car makes me feel very bad for him that he was not awarded his Junior. Maybe it can get worked out somehow.

[Shop Rat]

Mid-year Mustangs like his are referred to as '64 1/2 and are judged as a '65. Once upon a time it referred to them in the AACA judging manual that way. If someone has an old manual I bet they can find it. Our Ford Falcon Sprint convertible is a '63 1/2 as it came out in mid-year but will shown in with the 62-63 class due to it's body style. The '64-65 Falcons/Sprints were a different body style.

[Donald Rinaldi]

Thanks to all for your help! Didn't get home until after 11:30 last night. We had two trailers travelling together and one trailer blew out two tires and mine (which must have hit the same thing in the road puctured one). Oh well -- we are all alive and no damage to property other than some tires and a long day.

It was dissapointing to hear a judge make the comment "what kind of person would do that to a car?" and other participants hearing the same and commenting that he was upset with what I had done with engine compartment. Definitely tacky!

Anyway, I am anxious to see the judging sheets and see how they compare to the MCA standard. Her are some pics -- Hope you like her as much as I do!

Thanks Steve, for getting things going for me.

[Donald Rinaldi]

OOPS! Attached the wrong file!

[59chevyguy]

Well this engine compartment looks good to me. Or I am the blind man!!!

This car definitely deserved his Junior award and thats that!!!!

Something went south here. I have no more to say.

[Shop Rat]

First off the judge should not have made that comment even if he felt like that. We are trained to behave in a professional manner. Sadly there are exceptions no matter how many judge's training classes they go to.

Please don't be discouraged by one person out of the many that travel many miles and try very hard to be fair to every owner.

I hope that when you get the highlighted copy of the judging sheet showing where points were taken off (the number of points will not be on the form) that you will come back and share it with us. I for one am curious.

[novaman]

Glad there was any major damage from that tire. Seems several people had tire problems on the way home.

Hope you understood my previous post, I was trying to point out where if you use the percentages of a top point car to fairly compare systems, your MCA score in a 700 point would have been equal to a 391 in a 400 point system. That puts it 9 points behind a "perfect" (top points) car and real close to the bottom of the 10 point spread for first place.

You've got a really nice looking car from what I can tell, and it's ashame you didn't get the 1st Jr. But I've seen it before where some really nice cars missed it by 1 point. Hopefully, next time you'll get it.

The biggest thing here was the Judge's conduct/comment which is unacceptable and should never have happened.

Please share with us the judging sheet and if you would, please enlighten some of us on how the MCA scoring system works.

[Donald Rinaldi]

The MCA scoring system is very similar to AACA except they spend about an hour to an hour and a half on your car depending on your class. In my case the class was concours trailered with complete undercarriage. They really get into the nuts and bolts and details so I woud say overall it is a more difficult judging scenario. Some things for example are I had the incorrect nuts on my starter solenoid which should have been thinner as opposed to the thick bolts, the fuel line bracket that mounts to the engine block was natural and should have been painted black as it was mounted when the block was painted at the factory, I was missing a clip where the ground cable clips to the fender from the engine to the battery (I have since made one as they can't be found anywhere), incorrect spark plugs (I had motorcraft they should have been autolite - since chnaged) and of course the over gloss on the firewall and inner fenders. Total point deduction for above was 8. I have since corrected all but the gloss as the car presents itself better as a show car and when I start driving the car again will mainatin its luster. Othe deductions were incorrect nuts on my rear shocks (I had two nuts one being a lock nut) and that shuld have been one elongated nut which is a part that I made since the show. I recieved a 2 point deduction for my door sill plates which were 65 sill plates which are still on the car. 64 plates can't be found and I am trying to figure out how I can modify the 65 plates -- eventually I'll figure it out. Another deduction on the interior for 1 point was on the 641/2 two screws that hold the carpet to the floorboards (one on each side). Hope this gives you an idea of the judging, so the judging criteria is similar but the MCA format because it is specific to mustangs is more detailed which is what you would expect as AACA is more generalized. The judge kept getting confused that my car was a 641/2 because he told me my trunk mat was incorrect that it should be plaid and not speckled. The speckeld mat should be in a 641/2. He insisted on flat black in the engine compartment and it should be semi gloss according to MCA standards (I showed him this on my MCA judging sheet). I used a one stage 35% SEMI GLOSS which is evident by the milky finish. If I were to score the car wth a completely detailed udercarriage I would have scored the car at or around the 394 - 392 as I have fixed many of things I lost points for at the mustang show, so unless you are a gold card MCA judge you probably wouldn't have picked up on them. By the way one of the spectators overhead the judges negative comments an he happened to be a gold card judge for MCA (how about that for coincidence?), he introduced himself to me and showed me his card. His comment was don't listen to him and don't change a thing. He was that obnoxios and should be kept away from the public. Definitely an ego problem!!

I will share with all of you my results from AACA when I do get them. I have a problem with any group that hides results from their participants. This shoudn't be a secret as I exposed my car at the show I should be able to see the results including point deductions. I didn't hide a thing. If allowed I would have put mirrors under the car which is typically how I usually show the car.

[Donald Rinaldi]

Hello Susan,

I have always been impressed with the judges at AACA. I always felt comfortable speaking with them and they have always treated myself and my car with respect. I especially like AACA because there is a broad venue of cars and I get bored looking at all mustangs for three days. I also own a TBird and the same holds true when I attend national TBird shows. After this experience, I am more than likely going pass on AACA in the future. I was planning on taking my TBird to Kalamazoo next year for it's senior grand national but I have just lost alot of respect for the organization and it's integrity. But who knows, things feelings change.

[ex98thdrill]

Skip,

Don't let the actions of a few spoil your entire outlook. The system has its' strengths and weaknesses, but don't let it turn you off. If you don't like the system, get involved with it, learn it, and work to change it. If you walk away, things will never change. Things have changed a lot in the last couple of years, and you have to remember that Rome wasn't built in a day.

There are things that I don't like either, but I've taken the time to learn the system, understand it, and learned to overlook them for the time being. Currently I'm playing the game and eventually things will change.

[Shop Rat]

Hello skipro55,

I sure hope that you do change your mind about AACA. I know that your feelings got hurt, and that is not an easy thing to just overlook. But that was just one person out of so many really great ones.

I understand that you feel the car presents better as a show car with a high gloss engine compartment. But in the AACA we strive to preserve how the car looked, even after restoration, when it came from the factory....warts and all. And trust me some of them had warts.

The MCA, or any other marque club, and the AACA are like two parents in a divorce. They each have their own rules at "their house" and you have to play by the rules of the house you are in if you know what I mean.

I think that when you get the form it will tell us all a lot about what happened. It will be interesting to see how well the areas where deductions were taken match up with what you know is wrong with the car now.

By the way, does your car have radial tires on it?

[Guest greg72monte]

"radial tires?"

Good question Susan.

Does MCA allow radial tires?

[Restorer32]

Gloss paint where semigloss is specified is not over restoration. It is incorrect restoration and deserves a deduction. As you stated, the sill plates are incorrect, another deduction. I also question the red fill caps on the battery. Correct for '65? Radial tires? Correct size tires with the correct size designations? Can't tell if the generator has the chrome cover which was used on the early cars. Likely just a series of small deductions with serious competition in the class. Fix what's wrong and bring the car back again. You'll likely get the award you deserve.

[Shop Rat]

Greg, I wonder that also. Because if they do and we don't then there goes 3 points per tire including the spare if it is wrong. We had a car in the class I judged that had five radials. Our Team Captain, as she should, talked to him about it and he knew they were wrong. Bet he has the right tires next time since he didn't get the prize he came for and should have had if the tires were correct.

It boils down to money. Some people want to run the car on radials, for whatever reason, and they don't want to shell out the big bucks for correct tires. I don't see the AACA backing down on the radial tire issue any time soon.

[Donald Rinaldi]

I wish this was as simple as radial tires but to answer the question the car was shown with correct bias ply tires on all five wheels.

[Donald Rinaldi]

I agree there should be a deduction for an over gloss but also understand there was a single stage 35% semi gloss applied. The paint has a milky appearance and is not a full gloss paint. Let's all not confuse semi gloss with flat black as the judge indicated. The battery is MCA approved and the generator cover should be painted black and not chrome. At any rate your point on incorrect restoration is well noted. What should be the deduction for that in your opinion? This may be the problem, does this fall under the non authentic rule? If so, then the deduction would be valid.

Thanks,

Don

[Shop Rat]

Well, at least we know that is not an issue. Ah that it were that simple.

[novaman]

I understand they are checking the car in more detail. Still got a couple of questions.

The MCA judging "team", is it one person per several cars, several people per group of cars. And if it several people how do they split up the car to judge? I guess I'm trying to ask, how is the "team" made up and function on the show field.

Okay, the car has been judged at an MCA show, how is the 1st, 2nd, etc. determined in the awards system? Are there differnet levels like AACA with the Jr. and Sr. awards?

BTW, Susan, good thought about the tires as a possibility. I never thought of them. Guess will just have to wait on the sheet.

[ex98thdrill]

But David, this goes back to the argument that several people (including myself) have had regarding divulging scores and pointing out weaknesses. This could be a case where the judging team may be wrong, the owner is left scratching his head, and AACA wears the black eye. Judges aren't always right. If I'm not mistaken, gloss paint versus black paint would fall under the criteria for over-restoration. If the part was painted black originally, and it is painted black now, unless there is metallic in it, the paint should be acceptible. Another case could be a mathematical error on the judging sheet.

On Saturday, I had a few people who tried to tell me that the frame on our fire truck is supposed to be black and not red. Well they're correct, the frame on my truck left Dearborn black, but when American LaFrance shipped it out of their door it was painted the body color. Our truck was built with a red frame, a truck 12 numbers ahead of mine had a red frame, and the '41 Ford that my dad learned on is all original and still has a red frame. Does that mean that all Ford fire trucks had red frames?? NO!! But of the three trucks that I have seen built with American LaFrance equipment, left the factory with red frames. Now there is nothing saying that Seagrave, Hahn, Young, etc. didn't leave the frames black. If this was a case where I lost points, then it was a wrongfull deduction.

I personally would've rather had the frame painted black because black paint is cheaper to buy, and easier to touch up, but the frame was painted red, because the frame was red when the truck was new.

The point I'm trying to make, is that you have a person who did not get the award that he was looking to get, the car has proven itself as a winner, and he isn't getting any answers. That looks very bad to all of us, and it could be a costly move on the image and part of the organization.

[rodlars]

More food for thought. I have seen Chrysler 300 letter cars with the engine compartment inner fenders painted glossy body color and wearing AGNM hardware. If these were like all other late 50's Mopars, this area was finished in grey prime. Still on the topic of Mopars, I have seen several Mopar muscle cars with full body color painted floor pans and wheel wells. Factory finish was grey prime with body color overspray on the fringes and a spray of undercoat under each of the wheel wells. I know for a fact that "over" restored Mopars have collected their Senior award at Hershey, including my 70 Swinger 340 which also collected a National Award nomination along the way. Switching back to Ford's, what about Jerry Capizzi's cars. His cars are perennial National Award winners in Philly each year yet they are the poster child for "over" restoration. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against his cars. Had a chance to check out the Merc Turnpike Cruiser at a National Mercury Owners Meet and was awestruck. You could literally wax the intake manifold and any other piece on the engine to a glossy shine. Bottom line is, if the Mustang in question did in fact lose the award due to a little extra shine under the hood, I feel the owner has been jobbed and is victim of a double standard. I am familiar with MCA judging and if the car passed muster there from an authenticity standpoint, AACA judging should have been a cakewalk. Sorry to hear you happened upon the wrong judge on the wrong day, but I would keep the faith as your car probably has an AGNM run in it as it sits. Just have to give it another try in front of a new and different set of judge's eyes.

Rod

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, Susan, good thought about the tires as a possibility. I never thought of them. Guess will just have to wait on the sheet. </div></div>

Thanks David. It just came to me that maybe, just maybe he had radials on it and that would account for anywhere from 12 to 15 points being taken off.

I can't wait to hear where the points were taken off.

[Restorer32]

If it did in fact have the correct bias ply tires what sizes were they? Should have been number series tires rather than letter series tires. I suspect that if the car did not win there was a good reason. In my experience AACA judges give the owner the benefit of the doubt when there is a car which is on the borderline of winning. Seems to be another case where an owner thinks that since his car won an award at a specialty meet that it automatically should win in AACA competition. Again, likely a series of small deductions. I would have questioned the red battery caps. Was there documentation? The fact that the battery was accepted by MCA doesn't necessarily mean it appeared as it did when new.

[ex98thdrill]

over restoration does not constitute a deduction. It is in the rulebook.

[novaman]

I understand were your coming from about divulging the points. The reason I'm asking about the MCA way of doing things is to learn some about thier system. Who knows, maybe they are doing some things AACA should look at but if I know nothing about there way I currently can't make any suggestions to help better our system.

One thing I would like to see is something along the lines of maybe thier (marquee clubs) helping to train our judges like in the CJE classes. The one problem I see with that though is our judges could end up being "experts" on one make and model and be "nitpicky" on that car and the car next to it doesn't get judged as closely because the judges aren't near as knowlegdeable about that car. More less creating a double standard of judging in the class. Now if it were say the Mustang classes, Corvette classes, 55-57 tbird classes, it could work.

At the moment we are speculating as to what happened. We need to wait for the sheet to come and see were points were taken. If all or biggest majority were in the engine compartment the yes there is a definately a major problem. After all the entire firewall and splash pans are a max of 3 points, so any thing for inner fenders etc. shouldn't be anymore than that. The only thing that thing on this Mustang that could have a mandatory 10 point deduction is non-authenic A/C which I believe is not the case here.

Again, <span style="font-weight: bold">we need to wait on the sheet</span> . We might be surprized to find one highlighted area in the engine column and 10 others in the other three. (doubt that, but who knows until we have the sheet)

[Ron Green]

Quote; "If I'm not mistaken, gloss paint versus black paint would fall under the criteria for over-restoration"

I know 50's & 60's GM and saw numerous cars that were incorrectly painted in the engine compartment. One had everything painted a real flat black except the horns which were gloss black. Very strange looking.

Some used flat black and not 60% gloss in many areas. Some had no gloss black which some manufactures used for the air cleaner. All had their 1st junior, senior or grand national awards so they appeared to be judged correctly with no deduction for incorrect paint shade.

[59chevyguy]

Well I said I was done with this but I have one more comment.

I am very impressed with the members who have responded here on this Post

and the AACA itself trying to get to the bottom with the reasons.

I would bet the best steak in Harrisburg that this gets at least reviewed and

hopefully overturned.

My interpertation of the rules was that something painted the same color but

perhaps a bit too glossy was always considered over restored. (no deductions)

Over restoration relates to ease of maintenance.

After all "black is black". When you look at something black you would not say

it is "light black" or "dark black" is it??? At my first judging school in Virginia Beach

the moderator stressed the fact that, in doubt, give the points to the car.

Thank goodness I have a classic with a huge trunk as I carry every piece of

documentation I own.

Susan, you were the head judge on my car in Hershey last year and you and your

group were very attentive and listened to my comments and most of all, very

professional. (remember the hood insulation question on 59's)Instantly resolved correctly.

Every team should follow this example. We are all members of and for the same cause.

I cannot wait to see the highlited areas of Skipro's sheets. I know this car.

Thanks again AACA.

[Steve Moskowitz]

I just got the chance to look at a few more posts on the web and came across this thread. We are still uncovering from the Fall Meet so it has been hard. Excellent job folks of responding to this member's concern and this is when the forum works the best. Many of us, including our VP of Class Judging (he had a car get a 2nd Junior 3 times!) have come up against that one car that was near perfect which caused a very good car to not get a First Junior. It happens. However, we all should know going in that this could happen as our rules have been pretty consistent for many years.

The saddest day I ever had was showing my 1904 Curved Dash and finding out (should NOT have) that my car scored a perfect 400. I believe there were 13 cars in the class that day and I knew that many of my friends would not get their First Junior. Most were gracious and just said they would try harder the next meet but I still felt miserable since the friendships were more important than a trophy.

It may not be a big deal in some smaller clubs to divulge the scores and sheets but there are many problems associated with doing this with a volunteer staff approaching 1500. I can tell you from being here 3 years that our VP of Class Judging takes all complaints and concerns VERY seriously and does his best to resolve complaints. In the 30 plus years I have been in this hobby I have seen all sorts of problems. In the end, it is a hobby and not life and death. I know it is sometimes painful not to win an award that you think you deserve but the true reward is the people that admire your work and the fun you had in restoring the car. Hang in there, there is always another meet. If I have the class right there was one First Junior winner and two Second Junior winners which indicates to me pretty quickly that there just might have been a very high point car in the class.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Susan, you were the head judge on my car in Hershey last year and you and your group were very attentive and listened to my comments and most of all, very professional. (remember the hood insulation question on 59's)Instantly resolved correctly. Every team should follow this example. We are all members of and for the same cause.</div></div>

I am sitting here in shock that a year later you remember that I was the captain of the team that judged your car at Hershey. And yes I do remember the hood insulation question now that you bring it up. Most of all I am so pleased that our team left such a positive impression. There should ALWAYS be respect shown to the car and the owner.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My interpertation of the rules was that something painted the same color but perhaps a bit too glossy was always considered over restored. (no deductions)Over restoration relates to ease of maintenance.

After all "black is black". When you look at something black you would not say

it is "light black" or "dark black" is it??? </div></div>

Yup, that's what my interpretation is too. Not all companies reproduce the needed colors with the exact finish so you need to improvise. If the item is supposed to be black and it is a gloss black, black is black. If the item is supposed to be painted black and it's red, now it's a deduction. If I'm missing something, then I'd say that you and I are looking at it from the same perspective. I have to laugh that all of the factory literature that I've fished out of our library, I have yet to find anything that spelled out, black frame, orange engine, silver air cleaner, etc.

One good example is in our fire truck. In 1942, Ford had engines in two different colors. If the serial number was low, the engine was green, if it was a late '42, the engine was blue. I still have yet to find out the correct color on the transmission.

[59chevyguy]

Susan, so now you see how a judge can have an impact on someone. Wish life was that simple.

Thanks for all you and the other fine judges do out there every year in all kinds of weather.

Steven

[Shop Rat]

Steven, You are most welcome. I copied that portion of your post and sent it to four of the folks that helped to train me over the years by their example of how it should be done correctly. People who are now (or were) national directors, a past president of AACA and a lady that is so dedicated to our library that people will hand over their last dollar if she asked for it.

I already heard back from one of them and he said that a letter like mine made all the hard work worth it to have an owner like you feel that a good job was done. I don't know if you are also a judge, but if not then you should consider it. We need more folks that want to do the job right for others.

People say, "But I don't know that much about that many cars." Trust me, there are a ton of folks out there more than willing to teach anyone that will take the time to learn. And we learn something new at every show. From owners, other team members and from the classes given by the AACA.

[Donald Rinaldi]

Just wanted to let all of you know that I received an email from Randy Rutherford last night regarding my judging sheet and he will be forwarding a highlighted copy to me today by mail. Should hve it by the week end. Thanks to all of you that have helped out in this forum.

Don

PS

Anyone know how to use spellcheck on the quick reply?

[Shop Rat]

Don, As I understand it they haven't been able to get spellcheck working since the big revamping of the forums. So we just do our best and keep a spelling dictionary handy. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[novaman]

I usally use microsoft word to type my reply, & spellcheck then copy and paste it into the forum. I don't do it at work and you can tell that sometimes by the spelling errors.

[Donald Rinaldi]

Good idea!

Thanks

Don

[Donald Rinaldi]

Good Morning All!

Randy was pretty speedy getting my judging sheet with the highlighted areas, but without the point deductions it really doesn't help much and without explanation it is even tougher. Maybe the experienced people can interpret for me.

Exterior

Body door

Rear Quarter Panel

Light: Side Parking

Splash Apron

Chassis

Steering Assembly

Undercarriage

Engine

Air Cleaner

Block

Coil

Crankcase

Fan Shroud

Fire Wall

Generator/Alternator

Heads

Inake

Power Steering

Splash Pans

Water Pump

Wiring

Other - Gloss Paint

It looks like the major loss was in the engine compartment realated to gloss, although I puzzled on the exterior, udercarriage and steering assembly. As I may hav mentioned I only lost 1 point on my undercarriage with MCA as it pertained to nuts used for the rear shocks.

If the gloss paint was the issue is it over restoration, non authentic, or is there anything else.

Thanks to all for your time <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Don

PS

I'll send more pictures if it helps but how do I attach multiple pictures to the forum?