1923 Australian 6cyl Buick Tourer

[Guest Australian 1923]

Hi

I am new to this and only acquired my Buick 6 hours ago. Although all the documentation shows the car to be 1923 I have my doubts as the acelerator pedal in in between the clutch and brake. Is this correct. It maybe that the car was a cdk out of Oshawa and I know they used up out dated parts on the export cars, and the body was probably by Holden. Also I need help with a few parts, in particular a good radiator cap and the brackets to hold the folding roof to the pins in the side of car. Someone suggested Ford model A ugh!! might be OK. Can anyone help.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Aussie23:

If you post the numbers that are on the frame, the paperwork, and the data plates, I might be able to help you. A good reference for where these nubers might be located is at: www.oldbuickarchive.com.

Welcome to the wonderful (and sometimes strange) world of Buick.

There is also a very good Buick Club of Australia. Nice blokes, as you folks down under say. Seriously, do join them. Good on parts, advice, and fun! There's even some other 23's from your part of the world who post regularly here.

Regards, Dave Corbin, Buick Club of America

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Aussie23:

Right idea, poor execution on my part. Try this link: http://members.aol.com/buickohv/ars.htm

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest Australian 1923]

Hi Dave. Thanks for the reply. I am in fact located in the United Kingdom about 30 miles south west of London. My car arrived from Australia via New Zealand and Munich Germany yesterday. The only numbers I can find are an indistinct chasis number 64340 and and engine number PX5883. That is all the documentation I have. There does not appear to be an ID plate anywhere on the car nor who the body manufacturer was, although I suspect it was Holden. Any help you can give would be very much appreciated

David (Australian1923)

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear David:

I've asked a nice chap from GB to look at your inquiry. He probably knows more about McLaughlin Buicks than anyone else I know. What I can tell you is that the 64,340th McLaughlin Buick would be a car produced in the middle of the 1923 model run. I think PX5883 would be a Canadian engine, not a US one, as our frame and engine numbers would be right around 1,000,000 at that point in time.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest Oracle]

It's a McLaughlin-Buick chassis. Here is the 23-XX Master Six and Master Six LWB series:

1923 McLAUGHLIN MASTER SIX 118? W.B. MODELS:

23-41 5-PASSENGER TOURING SEDAN

23-44 2-PASSENGER ROADSTER

23-45 5-PASSENGER TOURING or CHASSIS only

23-47 5-PASSENGER SEDAN

[color:"red"] CANADIAN AUTOMOTIVE TRADE magazine confirms the above, and this checks with BRANHAM'S for the Flint-built models

or

1923 McLAUGHLIN MASTER SIX 124? W.B. MODELS:

23-48 4-PASSENGER COUPÉ

23-49 7-PASSENGER TOURING and Chassis in U.K.

23-50 7-PASSENGER SEDAN

23-54 3-PASSENGER SPECIAL ROADSTER

23-55 5-PASSENGER SPECIAL TOURING

"SERIALS RAN # 57700 TO # 65184" from British records but this is possibly incorrect

KNOWN ENGINE SERIALS # CPX3000 TO # CPX6750

Note CPXR stands for Canadian Products Division (Walkerville, Obntario) Export Right hand drive

Somewhere I have a database of 1923 McL-Buick models but can't lay my hands on it! The body could be from Holden's or even a McLaughlin one. There should be a body plate: Canadian cars had a GM of Canada plate with serial/engine numbers but not the body. Check the wheelbae length but here's three other known to me Aussie '23 cars:

MCLAUGHLIN-BUICK 1923

23-45 SPEC. # 77607

ALSO 23-45 ENGINE # CPX6407

ALSO 23-45 ENGINE # CPX6631

Could therefore be another 23-45!

David Hayward

Southampton, UK

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Aussie23 and Oracle:

Well, this is a strange one! I pick up Aussie23's inquiry and Oracle answers at my private e-mail to him. What's strange,you ask? All 3 of us are named David and I would think the two of you live about 30 miles apart, while I'm in Fort Worth, Texas, in the USA. Total elapsed time about 2 days!

David (Aussie 23),I think I'm going to turn into a spectator on this one. You need to have David (Oracle) come and visit you and your new find. Invite him to lunch and have a good time!

Regards to both of you,

Dave Corbin

[Guest Oracle]

Hi DC! Was just about to PM you to tell you that I had done a little work for you and our friend.

Here's a similar car imported into the UK by General Motors Limited of Hendon, London:

Rego NM 3652 SERIAL # 63741 ENGINE # X5809 Registered August 1923.

I keep a database of hundreds of Buicks and McLaughlin-Buicks imported in to the UK and also a model listing of every Buick type that I know of sold here from 1907 to 1949. That comes in handy when we have to deal with McL-Buicks from 1921 to say 1928 when CANADIAN AUTOMOTIVE HANDBOOK came out. CAH has details of Canadian serials and engine numbers from 1928 to 1939 although others have later editions. I rely on my 1943 BRANHAM'S for Canadian information for the 1938-1943 period.

[50jetback]

Three Daves,

There was a thread on this site earlier " Down Under Export Buicks " started by Andy 2755X which you may find interesting.

It seems we were getting Buicks from both the USA and Canada in the early years. Some which came from the US were complete ( mainly unique low production body styles ) but by the late 20's the bulk were CKD and had Holden or GM Australia bodies fitted.

During the early 1920's there seems to have been a lot of Canadian McLaughlin Buicks arrive in Australia. These would have been subject to far better import tariffs due to Canada and Australia both being being members of the British Commonwealth. As far as I know there were no Holden bodies built for McLaughlin cars and all vehicles were imported complete and most went to "well heeled". squatters in outback Australia. For the day they were very impressive cars and handled the rough Australian terrain better than most other makes. It is surprising how many have survived and being such an impressive car have been keenly restored over the years.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Oracle - Do you have any information about finding the Canadian Automotive Handbook? It certainly looks like something worth having.

Thanks.

[Guest Oracle]

Thriller...you are more likely to find Rocking Horse droppings! I bought them off a guy in Canada that wrote the CARS IN CANADA books! He had two, a '37 and a '39 edition but my contact Sandra Notarianni at Ford of Canada's historical department has a '41 edition I think. They were published by a company in Oakville, Ontario CANADIAN AUTOMOTIVE INFORMATION SERVICE and no-one has ever heard of them! I have tried for years to get hold of another copy but there just are none! Saying that someone will now tell me that they have one for sale on E-pay!

There was also the excellent SANFORD-EVANS STATISTICAL SERVICE, which ran from ??? perhaps 1935 and went on to the late Fifties at least. S-E still exist in some form or another but they don't have back copies. They published all-important car AND TRUCK data, and that truck info is better than any I have seen as it mentions engines and also those trucks importd from the US. I have 1950-51 and a later edition or two for cars. Others have copies of S-E and have Xeroxed pages for me in the past. However I have though about Xeroxing or scanning the books that I have and making them available.

You might like to contact S-E to find out what they have now from the past:

Sanford Evans Research Group

1700 Church Avenue

Winnipeg, Manitoba R2X 3A2

Canada

Located in The Winnipeg Sun building.

Phone: (204) 632-2768

Toll Free: 1-800-840-7776

Fax: (204) 632-4250

Email: GOLDBOOK@wpgsun.com

In addition BRANHAM AUTOMOBILE REFERENCE BOOK is always out there. They started about 1921 and the early ones are worth mega money. I have one or two, but from 1936 or so Branham's started publishing Canadian car&truck data in their US versions and my ultra-rare 1944 issue has Canadian info in it. Also you used to get quarterly updates if you subscribed, e.g. were a dealer or insurance assessor, and some update issues brought in new Canadian data so you can sometimes buy them on E-pay and save the big bucks wanted for the main editions. My last one I think is about 1958.

[Guest Oracle]

It would appear that our friend is almost half-way to London from me! Yes, he is in fact exactly where I conjected! There be Dragons in his area! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Oracle]

50jb:

Have a look at my online file about the bunkum about "Imperial Preference" please:

http://www.btinternet.com/~gmhistorian/IMPERIALPREFERENCEDEBUNKED.htm

I can say from evidence that I have from UK records is that the Canadian product was always going to be more expensive because of economies of scale, and GM whilst initially saying to the McLaughlins that they could have the export market to themselves from 1922 MY, changed their tune for 1925 MY and then US kits or varying types proved much cheaper even with the 1/3rd discount.

My pal BNorm Darwin in his book on GM in Australia 100 YEARS OF GM IN AUSTRALIA goers into good detail about Buicks, although I have more info on Chevrolets as that is a tale in itself! Notrm quotes Holden bodies for 1922 Buicks:

6-Cylinder Holden Bodies: £625 Colonial Body Touring £450 Roadster £445, Sports runabout £670 Sports £710 7-passenger Touring £675

These are the 1922-3 Models that he says were available:

1922 22-34 104? w.b. 4 Roadster £485, Tourer £495

1922 22-44 6 Roadster £695

1923 23-34 104? w.b. 4 Roadster

1923 23-45 118? w.b. 6 Roadster, Tourer £875

1923 23-41& 48 Imported 6 Sedan & Co.upe

So I suspect that the '23 is indeed a 23-45.

Edit:

CANADIAN AUTOMOTIVE TRADE July 1923?

A train of 80 freight cars pulled out of the railroad yards at Oshawa for New York. This was the largest single trainload of any kind ever pulled out of a Canadian Railway yard: the 80 freight cars held 407 automobiles?.234 McLaughlin-Buicks and 173 Chevrolets. From New York City they went by steamer to South Africa, Australia, British East Africa, Ceylon, Straits Settlements, Argentina, Denmark, Java, India, Portugal, New Zealand, Columbia, Rhodesia, Jamaica, Uruguay, Mexico, Belgium And Sweden!!!

Anyhow, it would appear that Flint-built Buicks were imported to 1921 MY end, and then McLaughlin-Buicks for some years but at some stage GM Australia or GM-Holden's (1931-on) switched to Flint-built Buicks. As regards Chevrolet, well the switch from Canadian to Tarrytown and Bloomfield CKD was possibly in 1924 (I will check) but then in 1935 it seems that there was an odd year with both Canadian and US cars being imported and thence until 1969 when the last SUP rhd cars were produced in St Therese, PQ and Oshawa, Ont, they were all Canadian-sourced. Compare this with South Africa..virtually all US-sourced until 1958, and New Zealand, which was a Canadian export market!

I have to see that the information in CANADIAN AUTOMOTIVE TRADE magazine from around 1920 makes interesting reading as regards the level of exports from Oshawa across the Atlantic and Pacific. They did try! However by 1923-4 the steam had run out...but that's another story! Then it all changed..it was actually all down to the new Ramsay MacDonald Labour Government, the first Labour Government, and the price the Liberal Party under David Lloyd George extracted for their support: free trade.

CANADIAN AUTOMOTIVE TRADE November 1924 heralded substantial changes for the Canadian export market:

MADE-IN-CANADA CARS PROMINENT IN LONDON

General Motors of Canada features Oshawa-built Products at British Show?If Politics Interferes With Sales Empire Trade Still Potential

According to cables Canadian-made cars were prominent in this year?s British motor show held during October in London. General Motors of Canada, for instance, exhibited Buicks, Oldsmobiles and Chevrolets, some with Canadian closed bodies as were shown at the British Empire exhibition this year.

Sales of Canadian cars are increasing every year, but the removal of the KcKenna tariff with its incidental preference to cars of Empire manufacture, has left it an open question whether the British market will continue to be supplied from Canadian plants or switch to the American. Manufacturing costs in the United States, it is pointed out, are considerably lower than those in Canada, and there now remains only a sentimental recommendation on behalf of the Canadian car.

The probability is that the English market will be catered to from American factories, while to Canadian factories will be left the task of supplying the rest of the Empire, which, by the way, affords a much larger market than the Isles alone.

This wider market, however, is partially affected by the Australian dictum that cars obtaining preference must have 75 per cent. of the labor and materials involved strictly British.

Note the last paragraph. However the writing was there..then it was found that Free Trade did not work, the US was accused of flooding the British market with duty-free cheap cars and a certain Rt Hon Winston Churchill MP stood up in Parliament as the Chabncellor of the Exchequor in the new Conservative Government and the rest is history:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The wartime Budget of the Liberal Party free-trader Reginald McKenna had introduced the so-called ?McKenna Duties? on imported motor vehicles particularly, which was ameliorated to a large extent by the Finance Act 1919 which allowed Canadian cars in at a discounted rate to be levied at 22 2/3rds% ad valorem, compared with 33 1/3% before, and on all U.S.-sourced cars. Amongst other things, these measures were to bring in extra revenue, protect the exchange rate with the U.S. Dollar, and protect the U.K. from U.S. luxury goods of which motor cars were perceived to be the most visible example [all U.K. production having switched of course to wartime contracts leaving the market open to the U.S. manufacturers virtually exclusively with no import duties leviable].

Just before 5.00 pm on the 29 April 1925, Churchill read out his Budget Speech, and he referred to Mr McKenna?s words which he used in the 1915 War Budget: ? The particular articles which we have chosen, primarily, upon the ground that their consumption is not required in this country; secondly, upon the ground of improving our fallen exchange; and, thirdly, on the ground that, in satisfying these two objects, we shall still obtain a certain degree of revenue. Those were his reasons in 1915, and every one of those reasons exists to-day. If those articles were luxuries then, they are luxuries now. If there was a need to diminish luxury importation from the United States of America then on account of the dollar exchange, has that need become any less urgent on the morrow of our return to the gold standard??

He then went on to comment that these duties would satisfy all Members, whichever stance they took, for several reasons. However, he made the point which is interesting, that he thought that a great majority of M.P.s won their seats on the basis that the voters thought that the duties should never have been taken off the previous year. He then went on to add

? ?.They [the duties] are capable of annual review after all, and there may come another Chancellor of the Exchequer, in times when revenue is more abundant and when expenditure is less exacting, who may be able, once again, to roll away this hideous cloud of oppression, and wealthy and patriotic persons will once again be able to recreate their exhausted strength in untaxed foreign motor cars no longer burdened by a 33 1/3 % duty?. He conjected that the total yield of all these optional taxes would be £5,730,000 in the first year and £10,000,000 in a full year. He then added that in order to get the best yield from these duties, they would come into effect on 1 July [1925].

Note that the motor car was singularly highlighted, and of course they were ?untaxed AMERICAN motor cars? which he implied. [in the Customs Year 6 April 1925 to 5 April 1926, there were 5,427 complete cars, worth £983,634 imported, which brought in net, Duty of £273,358, plus there were Parts & Accessories to the value of £1,269,978 which brought in net, £385,002 in Duty. In the ?full year? 1926 to 1927, the figures were 15,334 cars {including commercials} worth £2,483,218 which brought in £770,383 and Parts & Accessories worth £3,370,086 which brought in £1,060,713. With Motor cycles, the net Duty receipts for 1925-26 were £660,856 and for ?the full year? 1926-27 were £1,833,770 which seems to suggest that the Chancellor was correct in his forecasting]

</div></div>

[Guest Australian 1923]

Oracle seems to me to be an old friend he keeps phoning for information on Oaklands my being one of the four founders of the Oakland Owners Clun International Inc. I am also a member of the Society of Automotive Historians like him. Thant should be enought for you to go on David.

As facinating as all the history is I am still trying to find Radiator cap for my '23 in Australia which is almost certainly is a '22 in Canada. Incidentally it has a centre accelorator pedal. Boy is that fun to drive!!!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[50jetback]

Oracle,

I am confused? Is the Oshawa Canada plant the McLaughlin plant? or a GM assembly plant?

I know Norm Darwin quotes Holden body prices for Buicks 1922 to 1925 and I have seen examples of these, but never on a McLaughlin, all of which appear to have been fully imported and have notable differences in finish to both Holden and Buick built bodies.

I agree the tariff arrangements didn't seem to effect the type of vehicles imported into this country although all T model Fords Henry sent here prior to establishing the Ford Australia Geelong plant were built and exported from Canada ( Most T Ford radiator shells have made in Canada stamped under the name )so Henry must have thought there was something in it!!! What did determine sales was horsepower. The British HP taxing system which saw your vehicles being somewhat underpowered when compared to similar sized American models meant most prospective purchasers, particularly in the country went for the more powerful American car regardless of additional cost.

Have attached a photo illustrating the confusion of imports and locally bodied Buicks.

The Roadster is a 1928 model 28-24X, factory built RHD in Flint for export ( 251 built RHD ) Norm Darwin supplies figures from the Holden plant at Woodville which shows they built 187 Roadster bodies in 1928. Again the Holden body is distinctly different to the Buick body. It seems confusing we would build Roadster bodies and still import complete vehicles, but we did. You may be familiar with the Roadster in the photo as it now resides in the UK.

The vehicle next to the Roadster is a 1924 McLaughlin six, a truly magnificent car with teak dash and many refinements that the Holden or Buick bodies didn't have. In Australia, while Buicks were a prestige car the McLaughlin was the top of the line and again distinctly different. This vehicle is fully imported with no local content.

The third vehicle is a Buick 1930 Series 40 sedan which is bodied by Holden.

[old_truck_nut]

I have a 1923 four cylinder touring from Australia. Yes, it has the accellerator between the brake and the clutch on the right hand drive set up. My car came from Howard Distributing in Brisbane in '23.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

To clarify:

Oshawa is a city in Canada about 40 miles from Toronto. At one time, from about 1870 to 1915 it was home to McLaughlin Carriage Co. In 1907, the sons of the founder of the carriage company founded McLaughlin Motor Co. In 1918, they sold 49% to GM. In 1922 they sold the rest of the company, which was known as GM of Canada after 1918. GM of Canada is still headquartered there and employs around 20,000 in facilities in Oshawa.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest Oracle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Oracle seems to me to be an old friend he keeps phoning for information on Oaklands</div></div>

And he has an amazing vintage photo collection, and he taught me the skills of researching old corporate records in the National Archives as they are now! And he's a nice bloke..one of the best!

[Guest Oracle]

To amplify: the McLaughlin Carriage Co. Ltd were based in Oshawa, as has been said, and to that was added the McLaughlin Motor Co. Ltd who were on the same site it seems but different buildings. The Oshawa site expanded in 1916 as the Chevrolet Motor Car Co. of Canada Ltd was added, having traded for a short time from Toronto. The site was further expanded in 1919 as the "Oldsmobile Plant" was opened. For the record the various sales companies were:

McLAUGHLIN MOTOR CAR COMPANY LIMITED 1907

CHEVROLET MOTOR CAR COMPANY OF CANADA LIMITED 1915

OLDS MOTOR WORKS OF CANADA LIMITED 1919 [?]

OAKLAND MOTOR CAR COMPANY OF CANADA LIMITED 1921

CADILLAC MOTOR CAR COMPANY OF CANADA LIMITED 1923

GENERAL MOTORS TRUCK COMPANY OF CANADA LIMITED 1923

GENERAL MOTORS PRODUCTS OF CANADA LIMITED 17 August 1925

plus FRIGIDAIRE LIMITED [1921?]

and FRIGIDAIRE PRODUCTS OF CANADA LIMITED [1925?]

DELCO-LIGHT COMPANY OF CANADA LIMITED [192x]

in addition there was also a company that never traded, CANADIAN PRODUCTS LIMITED, of Walker Road, Walkerville, Ontario and the relevant:

FISHER BODY CO. OF CANADA LIMITED, incorporated 1912, on St Luke & Edna Streets, Sandwich East, then Ford City [subsumed into Windsor 1935]. Fisher of Canada expanded in 1915 and again in 1919 with a new building in Edna Street, and finally 1922 the ex-Chalmers Plant. Fisher of Canada was a subsidiary of Fisher Body which became itself a 60% subsidiary of GM Corporation in 1919. Fisher of Canada produced open bodies for Ford and others in the original plant until 1923 when it was transferred in-house at East Windsor. The second plant built closed bodies for Chevrolet, McLaughlin-Buick, Ford and Essex et al. Ford had built a new body plant by 1923 adjacent to their assembly plant. Then the inevitable happened and in early 1924 Ford withdrew from closed body supply from Fisher and the plant closed spring 1924. CANADIAN AUTOMOTIVE TRADE March 1924: ?Fisher Body at Walkerville to close because Ford will now build all its own bodies for its foreign trade?.

GM of Canada then brought closed body production in-house at Oshawa in a new plant ready for the 1925 Models.

As to Ford of Canada from my files (E.& O.E!:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ford of Canada was formed in 1904, less than a year after the Detroit company was formed. Gordon M. McGregor led a group of young businessmen from Windsor and with the agreement of Henry Ford, the Ford Motor Company of Canada was created in what ultimately became Ford City, adjacent to Walkerville, apparently on a tram line. 117 vehicles [Model A?s] were produced in that first year of production by the Canadian operation. Mr McGregor with his 24-year old colleague Wallace R. Campbell reassembled these first vehicles in the then Walkerville Wagon Works as mentioned above, with Ford chassis ferried across the Detroit River where bodies and wheels were added. The bodies were supplied from 1904 to 1912 by the afore-mentioned William Gray & Sons Limited whose carriage works were located in Chatham, just along the Detroit River. Robert Gray, the founder?s son had run the company since 1884, and apparently acquired some shares when the Ford Company was formed: Robert was one of the ?young men? who had travelled over to see Henry to secure the rights to manufacture Ford automobiles in the British Empire. After Fisher Body was awarded the contract to build bodies instead, Gray and son William eventually contracted with J. Dallas Dort to build the Gray-Dort in Chatham. The company was then reincorporated under a Dominion Charter on December 18, 1911 as the Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited. The old wagon works had by 1910 become a four-storey plant and office block. The location was chosen because of its proximity to Detroit, and by the possibility, later exploited in WW1, to provide parts for US requirements from another country with different labour laws, tariffs, and specialities. The Canadian company agreed to the release of the rights to export to the United Kingdom in 1906/7 upon request of Percival Perry and the subsequent Ford Motor Company Limited and Ford Motor Company (England) Limited were, with the German subsidiary, the only two overseas Ford manufacturing companies not a subsidiary of Ford of Canada which itself was only a partial subsidiary of Ford in Dearborn.

By the summer of 1911, an expansion of 500 feet on the waterfront was built which enabled the Ford Walkerville Plant to assemble radiators, machine rear axles, differentials, housings, and control levers, leading to a trebling of production. In May 1913, the first motors were machined and assembled on its own motor line, from castings produced by the Romeo Foundry Company of Port Huron, Michigan, owned by Michigan Senator, Eamonn A. Holmes, with castings with ?C? for ?Canada? and a sequential number cast in. By 1914, the Walkerville Plant had grown to 435,000 square feet. However, from early 1917 factory assembly branches were set-up to produce Left-hand Drive cars to cope with the production delays as a result of wartime production; those Provinces who required Right-hand Drive cars had to wait for Walkerville production, since only the main Plant built r.h.d. versions. These factory assembly branches were in Toronto, Ontario [Danforth Avenue, opened 1917?; Montreal, Quebec; Winnipeg, Manitoba [opened 1916] and possibly London, Ontario, announced December 1917. With the success of Ford?s facility in Walkerville, there was a dire need to expand the facilities, since the site had reached its production potential: 30,000 units per annum. An abortive attempt was made to buy-up land with options, along Brighton Beach on the Detroit River, in adjacent Sandwich, with the town of Windsor located between the proposed expansion site and the Walkerville Plant. This buying-up spree was dealt with anonymously with two sets of lawyers acting for Fords, one each side of the Detroit River handling the acquisitions in order to keep the prices from being inflated. The proposed deal was cancelled Henry Ford by the close of 1916, as a costly mistake: the word had gotten out, prices rocketed, and a key ?Beach Hut? site which was owned by a Philadelphia woman was valued at twelve times its actual value by the owners! Even Ford had their limits, and the Detroit office simply refused to bow to such financial oppertunism {read Blackmail!}.The proposed site was directly opposite the 1915-acquired tract of land along the River Rouge in Dearborn, just where the Rouge meets the Detroit River on the Great Lakes waterways system, and the idea was to bridge the plants by a short ferry crossing. The Rouge site was of course to become the famous River Rouge Assembly Plant and it had its origins here; clearly the Sandwich site was strategically placed: apposite and opposite!.

On April 30 1918, Holmes Foundry Company Limited was formed by Senator Holmes [owner of the Romeo Foundry Co, of Port Huron] on the opposite side of the Detroit River from Port Huron at Point Edward, adjacent to Sarnia, Ontario, and the new foundry then had a contract to produce Canadian-made castings for Ford a few miles away at what became Ford City. The Port Huron-based Romeo Foundry Company changed its name to Holmes Foundry Company as well in 1919. The company had, with other companies, produced castings for Chevrolet at Flint, Michigan as well: at least from 1916 [to 1922] and it seems that in addition to having a contract with Ford of Canada, Holmes Foundry Company Limited had a contract to supply castings for Canadian Chevrolet engines that were assembled in Walkerville from 1920.

In 1909, Charles Trescowthick, a South Australian engineer who had initially produced several small stationary engines around the turn of the Century, and then cars of his own design, travelled to Detroit in 1909 and was offered the importation rights for the new Model T in Australia, but he declined on the basis that the T did not look rugged enough for Australian roads!

The 1917 Palm was produced and marketed by E.W. Brown Motors Limited of Melbourne from imported l.h.d. parts, modified to r.h.d., and fitted with locally-made mudguards, hubcaps and radiator. However, court action by Ford put paid to production!</div></div>

So you can see that, just as in 1921 with GM exports, the Canadians tied-up Henry for the export market but only for the British Empire, except for the UK and Ireland. This was exacerbated by Henry refusing to produce r.h.d. cars for the UK so the Trafford Park, Manchester factory produced l.h.d. cars.

Turning back to Buick, history has shown that Flint produced r.h.d. export cars until 1954 Model Year, although Olds in Lansing stopped in 1951. It seems that there always was a small number of exported complete cars imported by dealers direct, and by individuals. Also there were some countries that received presumably because of low volumes, Flint-built Buicks as well as in the case of NZ, Canadian versions. Also, there was a significant but extremely important diplomatic export market. I know of a '49 Super Series 50 that was a US Embassy car in Canberra, and a '51 Super Series 50 that was a Brazilian Embassy car here in London! The US would have ordered US-built cars through GM Diplomatic Sales in New York not Canadian!

[Guest Oracle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It seems we were getting Buicks from both the USA and Canada in the early years. </div></div>

Here's some examples:

1915 CX24 ROADSTER CHASSIS # 110011 ENGINE # 111511

1920 K45 ENGINE # 702668

1924 24-33 COUPE CHASSIS # 1123114 ENGINE # 1104704

1925 25-49 MASTER SIX # 1293346 ENGINE # 130671x

It seems I have data for three Flint-built cars imported into the UK, probably having been bought there and driven to NYC, and then sent by liner to Southampton. However the five NZ 1923-5 cars I know of were all McL-Buicks, with McLaughlin bodies. By '25, starting in 1924 of course, Mclaughlins were quoting serial and engine numbers on the build plates.

May I just add that I am nor certain whether there was any delay in GM Australia bodying Buicks. There was as we know in later years a delay between model release in North America and the cars being available on the Australian market. Those who wanted "the latest model" with the pounds to pay the import duties could also order a US Fisher-bodied car.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Not entirely on topic, but here is a 1923 McLaughlin Buick for sale in rural Saskatchewan (Saskatoon would be the nearest city).

Oracle - thanks for the info on Sanford-Evans...I'll have to give them a call, especially since they are local.

[Guest Oracle]

Thriller, thanks for that! I know of a NZ 23-55 McL-Buick 5-passenger Touring and that's that..they were evidently not imported here. However perhaps I am being more dense than usual but cannot reconcile that serial number quoted nor the engine number with any known McL-Buick nor Flint Buick numbers. The engine should be a "CP" prefix .... unless anyone else knows different?

[50jetback]

The accelerator pedal or button is retained in the middle of brake and clutch into the early thirties RHD models. Easy to use once you learn to use the accelerator footrest and roll the foot sideways on and off the pedal. In this country, being relatively flat in many areas we get lazy and use the hand throttle on long distance runs.

Most of the early buicks here use Radiator caps incorporating a motormeter temp guage and if you give me a better description of the parts you need I'll see what's available.

From what you have said I would think your vehicle would be a fully imported McLaughlin which should be the same as sold in the UK. Does it have wooden intererior trim ( dash in particular ) and is it on wire or wooden wheels?

[50jetback]

How do you find the left hand gear changing?

[50jetback]

Oracle,

I'm still confused over those early 20's Buick imports to Australia and it still seems most probable that all Canadian McLaughlin Buicks were fully imported and were identicle to those received in New Zealand, South Africa etc, and yourselves in the UK.

The McLaughlins run different serial numbers to the US produced models.

Your friend Norm Darwin in his earlier book " The History of Holden Since 1917 " identifies the starting serial number for 1923 model 41 and 45's in Australia as 868521. This is consistant with Holden bodied 1923/24 Buicks I have seen in this country. This is also consistant with the US serial numbers supplied in the "Standard Catalogue of Buick" which tells us the first serial number for those 1923 models in the US is 871321. It is logical the preceeding 2800 serials numbers ( difference between Aussie 1st number and US 1st number in 1923 ) were used for export chassis so they could be shipped and have local bodies fitted to have them released at a closer date to the US release of the new models. These numbers of course do not relate to Canadian manufacture, or McLaughlins at least. Was the Oshawa factory using two sets of serial numbers, one distinct for fully assembled McLaughlins and another which corresponded with the US numbers for export stripped chassis?

Interestingly, other US Buick reference books I have access to don't list export stripped chassis until the 1930 models. In 1930 2,056 stripped series 40 chassis are listed for export and we know from Norm Darwins figures that Holdens Woodville supplied 571 bodies for series 40 chassis that year and the other 1,485 chassis were destined to go elsewhere in the world. The same refernces dont show any stripped chassis for export in 1928 yet we know Holden built 2621 bodies for the 1928 model Buicks.

Does this mean there are really more Buicks out there than we thought?

[Guest DaveCorbin]

To all on this thread:

I've examined the numbers given on that Buick in Sask. and it appears to be a numbers matching USA built Buick. Buick did make chassis type cars and also "body-in-white cars" as early as 1907. The 1943 Buick factory record book shows cowl jobs also in the 1920's. For refernce as to how many are there, the answer is 9,634,219, which includes 35,007 Marquettes thru 1958. The records of GM of Canada list another 298,716 Buicks thru 1958. Additional ambulances, hearses, etc total fewer than 5,000. Based on solid info, another 20,000 more or less, built by Holden pre 1940 with engines and chassis parts from Buick. In other words, a little under 10,000,000 cars.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Further Comment:

Mclaughlin did not use different serial numbers for cars exported or cars for Canada. They did have a change in the serial number system starting with the 1935 models. Up to that time, the numbers were sequential, with some numbers not used at the end of each year. Over a 30 year time span from 1908 thru 1933, this "skipping" appears to amount to approximately 30% of the serial numbers for each year. These cars were NOT built and didn't exist,then or now. Buick was guilty of the same thing, but to a lesser degree. Buick also mixed frame numbers between years, so the "generally accepted" frame number ranges for model years, especially in the teens and twenties, should be viewed with care, if not outright doubt.

Buick mixed frame numbers between years as early as 1907 and 1908 that I know of. They also left a block of frame numbers totalling approximately 11,000 not used at the end of the 1949 model year.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest Oracle]

My understanding is that up to 1921 Model Year, all Buicks imported into Australia and NZ would have been Flint export models. However, from Fall 1921, for 1922, GM of Canada supplied all export Buicks as Sam McLaughlin had agreed that they would have an exclusive agreement. However this deal fell apart in 1924, and in 1925 as a result of the scrapping of the British McKenna duties, it was a pot-pourri of supply deals. In 1925 only both Flint and Oshawa Buicks were imported into the UK for instance. As regards Chevrolet, well that is indeed confusing and I refer you to work done by my friend Ken Kaufmann for the VCCA as well as Norm's book.

Those figures that Norm quotes were supplied by GM-Holden's in 1954 to the authorities and they are clearly inaccurate for some years and GM marques. In some years though they are all we have to go on, e.g. export Canadian Oldsmobiles.

[50jetback]

Oracle,

Yes, the body build numbers supplied by Holden have always been regarded as suspect at best but the serial numbers quoted by Norm Darwin for various years have been regarded as accurate and are known to exist on remaining cars. That being accepted, are the serial numbers commencing 868521 for 1923 Model 41 and 45 Buicks consistant with numbers supplied to either complete of stripped chassis coming from the McLaughlin/Buick Canadian plant?

[Guest Oracle]

You'll have to ask Dave Corbin what he thinks but my BRITISH period info is that serials ran # 57700 to # 65184 and the lwb chassis # 57700 to # 64964 with Engines # CPX3000 to # CPX6750. These might not be accurate of course! The # quoted # 868521 is quoted in my 1927 Branham's as a Flint 23-41 start # with 23-45 at # 871321 and up, so GM-Holden's seem to be quoting Flint numbers. To the best of my knowledge, information and belief, all 1923 Model Australian imports were McLaughlin-Buicks. However after looking up my detailed history of GM in Australia, not in my friemnd Norm's books, and also from "actuals" I can confirm that GM Export Co. exported both Oshawa and Tarrytown chassis to Australia. It is thus possible that some Flint-built chassis came over for State dealer-assembly.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Stuart & Dave:

The break between model year 1922 and 1923 is a mess, and not a clear point. The very first 1923 frame number is 832673. The last 1922 frame number is 868520. The first 1923 that was for export was 887336, a 1923 Model 34X. That block continues thru several models to 887381, a Model 49X. Other blocks of X designated models ran from 932807 thru 932849, wuth one little block of 2 cars at 949689 and 949690. The last 1923 frame number was 1060176 with a clean break to 1924 at that point. I call this overlap of model years the "Dave Chambers Effect" after the great Buick historian who first wrote about in the early 1970's in Automobile Quarterly.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest Australian 1923]

Hi Stuart

I really don't mind if the rad cap has a motormeter or not. I just want to get in her and drive for more than a mile or so. If you would like to view her try www.classicandvintage.com click on weddings and she is the first car you come too. She has a metal dash and wooden wheels. I also need the saddles for locating the top bows when the rag top is down at the moment there is nothing other than the spikes that stick out from the sides of the car and there is a danger of them ripping the new top. I am also trying to find a set of bumpers but if anyone has a 22/23 with bumpers and could measure and photgraph them I am sure I could get them made

Regards

David

[Guest Australian 1923]

Will anyone be at Hershey. I am flying over tomorrow (28th) for a day at Carlisle and then on to the Hershey Fall Meet. I can be contacted by leaving a message at spot C4F14-16. Which is Barry Eash Restoration and leave a message or I will be there around 2 o'clock on the Thursday (5th) for the Oakland board and general meeting. If anyone is going and the know where they will at a certain day and time let me know and I do my best to be there. My cell/mobile number is +44 7799 885 990

Regards

David (Australian1923)

[50jetback]

Dave,

Have a look at this, you may find it interesting

http://picasaweb.google.com/unimogjohn/23McLaughlinBuickFirstDayAtHome

[50jetback]

Same site, different album, includes a couple of good views of the hood saddles you require.

http://picasaweb.google.com/unimogjohn/PickingUpThe1923McLaughlinBuickInNY

[Guest Oracle]

Yes that is "ROOTES" As in Rootes Brothers, as in Hillman, Humber, Commer, Karrier, Singer, Sunbeam, etc.!

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear David (Aussie 23):

I'm going to be at Hershey. I will be on duty at the BCA tent noon to 2PM Thursday. I've also invited the owner of that 1923 McLaughlin RHD to be there at that time. A RHD Buick convention? Pete Phillips will be there from 10 AM to noon.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[jbbuick22]

Dave, Is that steering wheel correct for a 45 or is that one only used on the 54 and 55?

I am restoring a 22-55 and need a steering like that. Does anyone have one for sale??

JB

22-55 Sport Touring

[Guest Australian 1923]

Hi Dave, I have let David know where to meet you Thursday, have fun y'all.

Best regards

Daniela

[Guest Australian 1923]

Hi Dave C, message from David - he is tied up in Oakland board meeting 11 till 3 on Thursday. Could you make another time? Either reply to me, see him at the Oakland stand C4F 14-16 or leave a message there for him or with Barry and Lindy. He is really looking forward to meeting you and your friends and talk Buick..........

Kind regards

Daniela