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DEAD IN THE WATER


Guest kennyw
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Guest kennyw

HAVEN'T HAD TO USE THE BOARD FOR SOME TIME. Well, with a Reatta that doesn't last long........I started the car and drove just two blocks. The motor quite just like turning off the key. It will not start or even try to start. Was only at about 2,000 or so r.p.m. and just going into second gear. I had a friend tow the car the two blocks back home and have checked most of the fuses. I will post this message and go and look some more. The way the motor stoped it must be electrical, but where? Fuel system or the coil pack etc. Anyone have an idea where to look first. The screen say everything is still o.k. So much for the dig. on board. I will try to pull up any trouble codes,,,,,,,,,,,,thanks for the help. kenny w...........Barnie,,,,,,,,,, confused.gif" border="0

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Sounds like a failed ignition module (not the coil pack) or something in the primary circuit to me. You are right about "if it was like a switch being turned off, it probably was. Crank or cam sensor failure should set a trouble code.<P>FSM has a good section on "cranks but does not run".

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Guest kennyw

I'm back. Checked all fuses and changed the relays for the fuel system etc. Checked spark. There is none. I checked two plug leads. NO SPARK. -----CHANGE THE MODULE???<BR> KEN confused.gif" border="0

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Guest kennyw

First time I ever tried to get codes out of the computer without the motor running. What are the two codes for the crank sensor and the other one you listed.......k

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Guest kennyw

Padgett, how do I get to the fsm page to look for the crank but not start article? I would like to know what the problem is before I start throwing parts at it!!

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It is in section six of the service manual - the first part of the diagnosis section. As usual am 1k miles from my manuals or would send. <P>Would check the ignition module first. I believe it is under the coilpack assembly. <P>Would be very unusual to lose all three coils at once but common for the module to fail. Am pretty sure that the crank sensor and cam sensor provide back-up for each other so either the module or its wiring (discounting the ECM itself) would satisfy Willie the Barber best.

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Guest kennyw

PADGETT,<BR>I replaced the [iGN. MODUAL] as everyone said I should do. Nothing. Everything is still the same. No spark. So for the unrefundable price of $104 for the part I am back to square one. Waiting for the next experts to help. STILL, [DEAD IN THE WATER]. I am going fishing tomorrow, I have to catch a $100 worth of fish. Hope to have the answer posted on the board when I return.<P> ken

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a) didn't say to replace, suggested checking module first. Is a way involving a 12v light bulb to do so.<P>B) Used to be able to verify primary ignition on any car with a tach - if primary was good, tach would twitch when cranking even if no fire. Does the digital tach do anything when cranking ?<P>Supect that module probably has three leads - 12v, tach, spark pulse. Ground is probably through the mounting plate. Next thing to do is to verify pulse from ECM and 12v supply *at the module* . Can use a light bulb. <P>If all is good to there light bulb with connection to ground will be on wconnected to one in run and flicker connected to the other when cranking. Ignore the tach lead. Given the symptoms so far, would not be surprised if one is missing.

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Did you get any codes? If so, what are they? It could be an injector. On my old Grand Prix, a couple injectors went out, it did just what you said, they also took out the ignition module with them. Unplug the injectors one by one, and put an ohmeter between the two wires on them. If one is shorted out it will be significantly less ohms than the others.

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ANYTIME ANY CAR THAT I HAVE OWNED STOPPED DEAD (I MEAN DEAD! NO WARNING, RIGHT NOW!), CRANKED BUT WOULD NOT START, AND HAD NO PREVIOUS PROBLEMS, IT WAS THE IGNITION MODULE. $40 OR $50 EASY INSTALLATION.

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....don't want to take up too much space but i can tell you that i owned a "T" Type Century that did the same thing twice but both times for different reasons. Same thing...couple-three feet and it died(just the motor). In a state of panic i got a neighbor to turn the key while i looked in the oil filler hole and low and behold the valves weren't going up and down. It was the timing chain. i honestly don't recall if there was spark. The second time turned out to be the crank sensor. i was racing down the hiway(laugh...but this thing was faster than the Reatta on a good day)and the centrifical force or debris or something got caught in the harmonic balencer fins and shattered the crank sensor. The first thing i thought of as i coasted to a parking lot was Ign Mod. That was a waste of time. On the one occasion i had a bad module the car ran funny before it went.

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....oh. And i believe you're going fishing to have a good time.....not to catch a $100 worth of fish. Just like my friend who spends $150 skiing but unfortunately can't bring home $150 worth of ski fillets....but claims he has a great time.<P>"Give a man a fish...and he eats for a day....Teach a man to fish.....and he ends up losing his job">>>>>>>>>>

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Guest kennyw

The module was $104, not $50-60. I will check for valve movement. That at least will be easy. No movement, no spark. That makes sense. There are four wires from the module to the coil pack and a gang connector to the module. What leads do I check with a light? I will also check the tach for movement while cranking. Cought the limit of fish and have had fish for the last three days. Fishing trip was free, just show up. Can't loose a job from fishing, don't have one. Wish I had bought the manual on ebay now. Can't do much without one...........ken

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Guest kennyw

NATASHA,<BR> just love your name. Brings back old t.v. memories of bullwinkle. Now you know how old I am.,,,,,,,,,,I don't know how you do the things you do on the computer but the scan was perfect. Just click the link. I wouldn't know how to make a link........Anyway, Harry says that the -FSM-section cranks but does not run in section 6 of the service manual is where I need to start. Can you copy this and get it to me? I will give you my email address. That might make it easier. Any help will be appricated.......dkwatson247@hotmail.com

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Tried to send e-mail but it bounced.<P>Would it be possible for you to scam just the page with the cooling fan<BR>relay schematic from the 90 FSM ? It is in section 8A-31-0 in the '88 FSM.<P>The '88 just turns one fan on in LOW and I would like to rewire like the '90<BR>where both fans are on in LOW.

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Guest kennyw

Natasha,<BR>what ever Padgett says. I just wrote what he said in his post #79. Hope someone can get this to me. When are you going to be back home Padgett? Also Harry Y.. Where is perryman Md.? Sounds like you know the Reatta or the 3.8 system. I might have to let the experts finish this one.

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Kenny I havent been here much with a bunch going on but BEFORE You replace any more parts, Get the codes out of the computer, It will point You in the right direction. It sounds like a possible crank sensor but You need the code info before You do much more. It is invaluble

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Guest kennyw

Padgett,<BR>thats only 35 miles from me here in Md. Why not come over and help with the car before you go back home......ken

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Guest kennyw

skip,<BR>the computer doesn't have any new codes. Just two old ones. b552 and b673 what ever they are. SAYS- no emc codes. Would pulling all the fuses to check for bad ones have erased any codes? I did check and the valves are moving so the cam chain is still working.

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Kenny the b552 is telling You that the BCM has lost power. I would guess because of the fuse being pulled. The other is a problem with Your cruise control. The older GM cars would blow away the codes if You pulled the fuses so I am betting that this one does too but I cant swear to it. Anyway if there were codes in it and You blew them away they would come back if You tried to start the car and it sensed a problem that kept it from starting. I will look at something and add more in a bit

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Kenny this is part 2! I did a bit of research and guess what? The computer system does not monitor the crank sensor! It just wont run if it fails. The crank sensor is the electronic version of points. So if the points dont tell the ignition to fire, it doesnt. See if You can get Natasha to scan section 6E3-C4 pages 1 through 5. It will help You to diagnosis it. I have had mine off and the only real problem is getting the crank shaft bolt broke loose to take the dampner off. It is tight. I had to pull the cover off My flexplate and lock the motor to get Mine off. The sensor is not too expensive ,I think. I cant tell You for sure that is it without having the car here but it sounds like it could be probable.

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Guest kennyw

Skip,thanks for the new information. Since I have no new codes in the computer it is looking like the crank sensor. You state the computer doesn't monator this part. Sounds like the first place to look. I just know that getting the dampner off is going to be a bear. If it were something else I would think the computer would show some codes. Will keep the board informed,,,,,,,,k

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kennyw here are your scans from that section. <A HREF="http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta1.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta1.jpg</A> <A HREF="http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta2.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta2.jpg</A> <A HREF="http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta3.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta3.jpg</A> <A HREF="http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta4.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta4.jpg</A> <A HREF="http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta5.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta5.jpg</A> <A HREF="http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta6.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://natasha38.botbuilders.com/reatta6.jpg</A> <P>I hope it's the right ones, if not please advise on what else you may need. <BR>I'll be more then happy to make some more if you folks would direct me to the section.<BR>Natasha

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Those are the right pages. Note that you check the entire system first with a test light on an injector connection. The cold start does not use much of the ECM.<P>Kenny note particularly that there is a way to test for a CRANK sensor fault without removing it from the car (page 4 of 4). I still have not figured out exactly what the CAM sensor adds.<P>Was talking to an ex-Buick service writer. He recalled a service bulletin that said in the case of an intermittant "crank but no start" in 3800s for a wide range of years the preferred fix was to replace everything in the circuit including pulling the timing cover to replace the cam sensor.<P>(if going that far, best replace the water pump and timing chain while at it). He also said the bill was around U$1300.

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Good news - thumbing through the 1990 bulletins book (now have all four: 1988-1991) I came across 90-8-22 which states that if the Cam Sensor fails, an EO41 code will be set. More the cam sensor is not used for the first revolutions so the engine should fire at least once on crank then either stop, run rough, or run (1 in 6 chance).<P>However not running at all, no error code, and no spark is apparently going to be something that does not require timing cover removal.

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If You want a bit more info on sensors, they can be checked in other ways then with scanners. Most cars use 2 types of sensors, Hall effect and magnetic. Both can be checked with a multimeter. Hall effect needs a power source to check. They are a little more complex to check but remember if You put a 12 volt power source to it and spin the reluctor around it will produce a 12 volt off and on, DC voltage. We used this a lot with the old distributors. The easy one are magnetic sensors, like cam and wheel speed sensors. They use 2 wires and if You put a voltmeter set on AC voltage on them and spin them, they produce a voltage. But remember it is AC. Dont worry about how much it produces. If it produces volts it is ok. So if You unplug a cam sensor and connect Your meter on the 2 wires and crank Your engine, You can tell if Your sensor is ok. This works on any magnetic 2 wire sensor.

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Guest kennyw

Natasha,<BR>thanks for the scans. I finally got them printed. Had to save each to file first and them fit to page. The copyer would only copy half of a [paged scanned] from your site. I had to learn something new on the computer to copy the whole scan. Now to the car. The truck battery went dead while parked two spots from the Reatta, and you won't believe this but my son in laws almost new Mercedes failed to even crank when he parked behind the Reatta. So there are now [three] vehicles setting that will not run. Honest, this is not a joke........ken mad.gif" border="0shocked.gif" border="0

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kennyw any time!<BR>Sorry about scanning them so large but that way at least we can make sure the print is readable.<P>Can I kill them for server spave now?<BR>Tash

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Guest kennyw

TASH,<BR>YES, KILL THE SCANS FOR SPACE. I have all printed now--------WELL---THE----OLD----REATTA-----LIVES----AGAIN. THIS IS DO TO PADGETT AND HIS UNBELIEVEABLE HELP WITH MY CAR. HE WENT AT LEAST TWO STEPS BEYOUD THE CALL OF DUTY. It ended up being the crank sensor that was the problem. Test and retest until the only thing left was to pull the crank pully.----wala----a broken sensor. I finally saw something I could relate to. I could see it was broken. Padgett even had a doner sensor already installed in the holder ficture. G.M. has a special tool to get the [about] 25th clearance needed for the instalation. I am glad I didn't have to do this part as the donor was is perfect alignment. Getting the 219-ft.lb. on the crank bolt was another matter but it was finally done. My hat is off to PADGETT, couldn't have done it without him. I am now reading a cruise control problem on the screen. I guess this is from pulling all the connections and fuses,,,,,,,,padgett----help!!! Thanks to all who helped with my problem.............D.K.W. sr.

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