clatter from under the hood

[Guest DTerry]

I have a noise coming from the vicinity of the power steering pump/alternator/belt tensioner. Comes and goes, but mostly noisy. Clattering, possibly bearing. Started intermittently about a week ago and has steadily gotten worse. I've stethoscoped it and can hear it from both alternator and PSP. Apparently transferred. I replaced the tensioner pulley and lubed the springy part of it, so I'm pretty sure that's not it. It's there at idle or acceleration, so probably not timing chain, and the harmonic balancer is good. I tried to spin them up with the belt off using an electric drill, and didn't have much luck, but both seemed okay. A tiny bit of play in the PSP shaft. No noise from water pump. New (rebuilt) alternator last year, works fine.

I guess the next thing is to get a pump from the local salvage yard and see if anything changes. If not, then take in the alternator for a check. If not one of those, then I'm totally out of altitude, airspeed and ideas. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Or wait for it to fail and then I'll know....

Any suggestions?

[Reatta45]

Dave?

It sounds like you are looking at all the right places?Good luck and post back if you find anything. KennyV.

[alexhouston]

I suggest you check the hormonic balancer first. That is the most common cause of noise in that area. Look for deteriorated rubber.

[Guest DTerry]

Harmonic balancer is good.

[pkmike]

Did you try turning the A/C off? A bad compressor can make a clatter sound.

[Guest DTerry]

New compressor, noise comes and goes with compressor engaged or not engaged.

[Machiner 55]

Hello Dave,

My son and I recently reassembled a 3800 engine from an 89 Riviera. There was no abhorrent noises emanating from the engine prior to taking it down. At about one hundred seconds after initial startup a noise that sounded like nuts and bolts tumbling around in a steel bucket started up and was getting louder. I was not happy about this development at all, to say the least. The noise disappeared at higher RPM's but came back at idle. Also, the noise eased up when turning the steering wheel to its stops in either direction. Initially I thought it to be the PSP. I took off the serpentine belt to see if it was the engine or some accessory connected to it. The sound was gone. I reattached the belt... the sound returned. Well then, it must be the either the power steering pump, the alternator (the manual calls it a generator), water pump, idler pulley or the AC compressor. I went with the AC compressor as it was the only component from the front of the engine that was changed out. We took the comp. back to Auto Zone and got a replacement. Gotta say that it's a lot easier to de-mount and re-mount that sucker while the engine is out of the car. (I read your post earlier about changing it in the car... I felt your pain!!!) It really helps matters if the radiator and the condenser are removed first. Anyway... started the engine again listening... checking ... counting (I count things as a habit developed over years of working on machines... helps determine patterns.) and there again at about 100 seconds the noise returns! Bummer! Again, take the serp. belt off. Belt off no noise... belt on, noise! Can't be the Harmonic Balancer. I'd inspected it when it was off the crank during the rebuild. It looked OK. There was no noise prior to the tear down. So... what else could it be??? Used the stethoscope and the noise was the loudest at the water pump. There was a bit of play in the shaft but, I changed it not too long ago... what the heck, I'll change it anyway. Again we're draining the coolant out of the system. (I think we drained it four times before all was said and done.) Installed a new pump, filled the radiator and before we got it filled completely we noticed coolant dripping from the bottom of the new water pump! Root cause... I'd miss read the torque wrench settings and over torqued the bolts there by causing the gasket to fail. Damn!!! Off comes the water pump to replace the gasket and re-torque the bolts.

Once again we start the engine. All systems go, we have lift off. My son and I are smiling... for about 100 seconds. I can't describe the sensation I was feeling somewhere in the vicinity of my heart and pancreas. It wasn't good I can tell you that. The look on my sons face wasn't too encouraging either.

After I got my tail out from between my legs and the curvature out of my spine I came to this board and searched for... OK I'll let you guess...

Give up? I searched for "Harmonic Balancer"

After reading those posts (again) I came to the conclusion that that is what it had to be. I couldn't rationalize it. It went against my diagnostic abilities but... it had to be something on the front of the engine and I was going to have to start changing out items located on the serpentine belt train so it might just as well be the Balancer. Back to Auto Zone. They have a little punch card promo going on where after five purchases over $20.00 they give you a $20.00 gift card. (I've redeemed several of those cards in the past year.) so, the $90.00 Balancer cost $70.00. I installed (I say "I" because the boy got discouraged and bailed on me. Can't say as I blame him.) the Balancer, buttoned things up and started the car and started counting 1...2...3...4....101...102.......234........1,000,497...........

Well, after a couple of days I quit counting 'cause I got tired of it. But the noise NEVER came back.

Is your Harmonic Balancer the source of your noise? I don't know.

Good Luck!

Oh yah... [color:"red"] See attached for the noisy Balancer.

[Machiner 55]

Backside of H.B. [color:"red"] See Attached.

[Guest DTerry]

RJ, you're probably right, but - like you - I just can't believe the HB is the problem. I <span style="font-style: italic">must</span> try the other things first, and if I end up replacing the harmonic balancer, I'll post a picture of my red face.

[manikmekanik]

Look very carefully at the Harmonic Balancer!!!

The cracking around the edge isn't always clearly visible, try to feel it with your fingernails. I'll attach a photo of one of mine that went bad-sounded like A/C clutch, or water pump. The owner sold the car because they thought it was a broken rod.

The noise you're hearing could still be A/C clutch, or water pump, but verify it's not the H-B first, as the others are also expensive to fix.

[Guest DTerry]

Well, I can only make a visual inspection of the HB, but it looks good. Can't feel any movement in it. Took off the alternator but can't spin it with a transverse load on it. That's the easiest thing to remove, so start there. It does sound a little scratchy. I'll take it to a shop and see if they can put a load on it.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a parts department next door so you could replace items at will and put them back on the shelf if that doesn't fix the problem? As the professionals do.

'Course I can replace all of the items spun by the accessory drive belt for less than what it would cost to have the GM folks repair it. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Howard]

I vote for the HB too. I had noises just like you describe, yet I could see no problem. The sound would only occur at idle when I turned the steering wheel. Then it seemed to get louder and happen more often. Then when sitting in traffic for 15 hours evacuating from Hurricane Rita, I heard a pop, then the noise got really loud and would not stop at all. When I got to where I was going, I took a flashlight and saw a hunk of the HB was missing!

[Howard]

One item, I'm sure you have checked, but how new is the fan belt? Rarely, but sometimes when cracked internally, they will make noise, then fail. Just a thought, and cheap to replace. Never hurts to have a new fan belt.

[Guest DTerry]

Good point, Howard. I've had that experience, too. I'll do that today. Do the easy (cheap) things first.

How 'bout the timing belt? Would it get noisy? JUST KIDDING.....! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(I have one with a TB, and that's the next chore. Sometimes I think my wife may be right. "Why don't you just get a new car?")

[91Reatta798]

Unfortunately, I have to vote for the HB. I replaced mine this past winter. I drove to work one morning just fine, but when I started her to go home I got a terrible rattle sound. I stuck my head in the engine and was CERTAIN it was the power steering pump. I changed it w/ some difficulty and having to send it to the Napa machine shop to have the pulley removed. Still rattled after the switch. It turned out to be the HB and it was the the biggest (female dog explitive) I've ever dealt with. She was out of commission for a week before I completed that project. Anyway, good luck, especially if it's the HB.

[Guest DTerry]

Took the alternator in to AutoZone. That was a total waste of time. Stopped by NAPA, folks were real nice, spent about half hour with me spinning the alternator and listening. Some bearing noise, but doesn't seem like enough to cause the noise I'm getting. If I get a round tuit, I'll pick up a power steering pump at the local jun - I mean recycled parts yard. That'll be cheap enough.

The clatter definitely comes from the top, but I can't pin it down. No noise whatsoever from the bottom - in the vicinity of the balancer, which is why I just can't believe that's what it is.

Howard, I changed the belt. No help. Seems like the last belt I bought was about 12 bucks. Now they crowd thirty. What happened?

If I just ignore it, it'll sooner or later let me know what the problem is. Maybe that's what I'll do. I don't expect it to heal itself. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all the input.

Experience is the best teacher. Especially when it's someone else's experience.

[alexhouston]

You may want to start the car, turn on the AC very cold with the doors open to keep the compressor running. Have someone in the car turnong the wheel to activate the PS pump. Suddenly accelerate the engine and listen for a squeel from the HB. That would be the rubber slipping. In other words, put all the load on the belt you can and listen. If it does squeel, replace the HB.

This may seem odd but it worked for me now on three different cars.

[Guest DTerry]

Did that. No real change. While turning the wheel the sound (subjectively) seemed as if it might have diminished somewhat. I'll pick up a used PSP one of these days and see what happens.

[Guest Jim Piro]

Happened to me a few years ago and I put in a new PS pump (flushed the lines and the rack and got some foul oil out of the system), replaced the belt tensioner twice, replaced the water pump and the alternator. Noise still there but only at idle. I was frustrated and went to Buick. Roy, MY MECHANIC, told me what it was. Common repair to them. Brand new to me! If I had replaced the HB first, I could have saved a bundle. But, the front end is new including the AC compressor. A few less things to worry about!

[Guest DTerry]

I'm almost convinced...but not quite yet. It seems that everyone but me has a harmonic balancer failure story. Except on Reatta engines they seem to last forever. I did have one fall off. Taurus 3 litre, all the bolts broke and it fell off. I <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to try the PSP first, and if that's not it, I'll go ahead and do the HB thing.

[Howard]

Sorry the belt did not do the trick. Also sorry the price went up. But, it never hurts to have a new belt.

[Guest zreatta]

I have a similar noise. I've had several service people listen to it - from a trusted dealer, to a couple guys I know that work on cars for a living. First, I have yet to hear anyone say anything bad about the 3.8 V6, and I support that with my Reatta with 187000 miles, and a Lesabre T Type with 197000.

Anyway, my Reatta has a noise, but steering doesn't affect it. Mine is at idle, a little bit of acceleration, then its gone. Many of the above mentioned people have mentioned the counterbalance bearing(s). I'd prefer the harmonic balancer. Mine has been like this for just under a year, and its never run better or stronger.

Good luck and keep us posted.

z

[Guest DTerry]

Well, sure 'nuff, I knew that if I let it go long enough it would let me know. Turned out to be the alternator. Finally got loud enough that it was obvious. The front bearing gave out.

When did re-man alternators get to be a hundred bucks? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Vincent Vega]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">......When did re-man alternators get to be a hundred bucks?....... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

When they started importing new cheap crap for sale at "discount" Auto parts stores......

[Machiner 55]

Well... so much for Internet diagnostics!

Glad to hear it was something easy to get to, to work on.

Also, thanks for posting the outcome.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Will keep this in mind. My alternator appears to be original, and i can feel some vertical slack on the pulley, but hey, it hasn't crapped out yet <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Might upgrade to a higher-amp unit though, since I don't know if it can keep up with my 1200 watt inverter at full load at idle (I might get a larger one which won't help).

[padgett]

Well my experience with alternator bearings is that they whine or sometimes groan but I never heard one clatter.

[Guest DTerry]

Yup, me too, but at the end it sounded like a clothes dryer full of walnuts. Became really obvious. Square bearings. I bought the $15 power steering pump on EBay as a cheap diagnosis tool, but the car let me know before I got around to installing it.

Really, stethoscoping it I could only tell it was one or the other. Somehow the noise was transferred and both of them sounded the same, but it was definitely at the top of the belted accessories. Oh,well - now I can relax and wait for the next Reatta adventure. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[padgett]

Had something similar a while ago on the Bonne but was a whine. Could not tell where it was coming from but went away when pulled belt. Finally just swapped the alternator for a spare and noise went away.

[89REATTAJIM]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well my experience with alternator bearings is that they whine or sometimes groan but I never heard one clatter. </div></div>

Flashback: Sounds like my 1st wife. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[HNLCityLights]

Had a similar problem and went through the gamut trying to find the problem.

My Reatta's clatter came from the crankshaft timing mechanism which is behind the crank dampner. It got separated from the dampner and I replaced the dampner which came with the crankshaft timing mechanism....clatter disappered.

Getting that dampner bolt out though was a bear ....had to use a very long extension on my 3/4" drive breaker bar and practically stood on the bar to "crack" the bolt free. You will need a flywheel stop to keep the crank from spinning.

Be sure to disconnect the battery to prevent engine starts when working on the engine...you don't want the breaker bar between your teeth.