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FLINT '08

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Is it judged or not judged? I have seen it both ways on this forum. If it is not judged, I will have to think long and hard about taking my car to Flint. It is only 5-6 hours away; I was looking forward to the '08 nationals but not being judged, disappoints me. Since last lyear, I have been working on the items that I got hit for. I think I have almost all of them fixed. I know that different judges look at a car in different ways but all things being equal...I should move from a silver to a gold. Why worry about it, the next meet in '09 will be out west which means '10 is the next judged meet for me. Who knows, I can be old, worn out and beat by then (my car included).

TOO BAD!!

Stevo

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The BCA Board approved a national meet with no judging for Flint in 2008. Unfortunately, no other 2008 national meet bids were submitted, so there was little choice. I would have preferred a judged meet, also.

Pete Phillips

BCA #7338

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I too, wish judging was an option. Not just for bringing out a car, but for continuing to learn how to be a good judge. This was second year judging at a National and I can say I did a much better job than my first, and I look forward to gaining more education and learning to be a better judge.

But...I can say I attended the Board of Directors meeting in Rochester and listening to the 2008 proposal. It sure seems like they have a pretty fun meet planned. The idea of a less formal celebration does have it's charms. I think of this particularly since that scramble between the judges meeting and cleaning up the car before judging begins is really hectic. I know I'll be there and it sounds like the Buicktown chapter has many great ideas and good plans in place to make sure people have a fun time.

If I recall correctly, and please someone correct me if I am wrong, BCA meets are not necessarily moved region to region each year. Any chapter can bid. The BOD will listen to all proposals and then make a decision. This is what I observed in Kokomo and what happened when our chapter bid in Plano. I've heard rumors of a possible bid from Florida for 2009.

After having been involved in helping to organize and run part of a National meet, I can say I have TONS of respect for the amount of work, time, and effort involved. I'm going to give a respectful nod to any chapter willing to take on such a monumental task and thank them.

That's just my opinionated 2 cents.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The BCA Board approved a national meet with no judging for Flint in 2008. Unfortunately, no other 2008 national meet bids were submitted, so there was little choice. I would have preferred a judged meet, also.

Pete Phillips

BCA #7338 </div></div>

Pete, Instead of making it a "judged" show or "nonjudged" show, why not change things around a bit for Flint '08.....Why not make it a little less "formal" and have it set up so the public coming in to view the cars gets a ballot, and votes on their favorites, have a number trophies per class? Kind of like a "local" car show but on a bigger scale. Or, try this, every vehicle that comes to the meet will receive a jug when registered, and the public would come in and vote for their favorite by dropping money into the jug, (this would be Saturday only) the cars that raise the most money will win the trophies and the proceeds raised will go toward a charity of some sort, either locally or nationally. The car owners can have some fun and be creative to encourage the voters to give to their vehicle. Dressing in "goofy" costumes, or doing something to attract the public to their vehicles to garner the money (votes). Of course this would have to be promoted locally prior to the day of voting, but I think it could be fun and a change from the norm, especially if there is no judging at the Flint National anyway. I have seen these types of shows here in Wisconsin and they seem to go over well. Just my thoughts.

John

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Guest BJM

What a political football this is. The by-laws stipulate that there needs to be 400 point judging at a national meet. A recent survey on this forum was overwhelming in it's favor of judging at the National meet. I attended the General Membership meeting in Rochester and most were in favor of 400 point judging at a National meet EXCEPT the folks representing FLINT.

So who is running the show here? Was the BOD held hostage by the Buicktown chapter because it is the fabled hometown chapter and because there were no other national bids for a meet still 2 years away?

Seems to me that is the case. Of course, BUICKTOWN will take offense at my remarks. But there are overwhelming reasons for having a 400 point judged show at EVERY BCA National, without exception.

The fellow from the BUICKTOWN chapter that spoke up at the General Membership meeting (I was not at the board meeting - I was in the salvage yard) stated he expected 700 plus cars and that's too many to judge.

My position is simple: The BCA has an ongoing mission as a steward of factory correct Buick products to judge at a high level annually to maintain the quality of the restored Buick motorcar.

Getting an award is personal achievement. Having a body of known correct senior cars is a membership obligation and challenge. the issue would be minimized IF the 2007 national was held in the mid-west because perhaps it would attract enough golds/seniors/restored cars to allow a year to be skipped but as was previously pointed out in this post, some folks will have to wait until 2009 or 2010 to show their cars.

No. 2 is the quality of judging. Everyone wants to complain that the seniority of judges is bad but how am I going to become better unless I judge every year or 4 out of 5 years?

I was a 1st time judge this year and enjoyed it. I am motivated to continue BUT I can not make Seattle 2007. There is no judging in 2008, there is no way to know where the National will be in 2009 but at the least I am 2 plus years away from judging my next National.

I know, I know - there are Regionals. Fine - but the number's are less and there are fewer Senior cars there to review prior to digging into Gold/Silver/Bronze class cars. I reviewed 4 Seniors before I even got to a car in my class at Rochester as a 1st timer. The purpose of a Regional is to attract newer restorations so they don't have to go across the U.S. to get 400 point judged. Regional 400 point judging allows fine tuning of a judged car prior to the biggest judged stage in the world for a Buick car. It is not a replacement for a National. Which leads to my next point...

How about thinking outside the box on judging at Flint for change? How about - limiting the number of judged cars to a normal National field. We had approximately 200 judges cars in Rochester. (475 registered cars I think) In order to control the judging, require a minimum score at a regional or prior National within the past year. Therefore, you will get cars must "qualify" for judging at the National. Limit the entrants per class to the best 10, if needed. This would allow a manageable amount of judged vehicles at a very high level of quality.

Again, I use the "Super Bowl" analogy. This is the Super Bowl of Buick collecting (a National Meet). What if the NFL said "we are cancelling the game this year but encourage you to come to the week long party".

It's a shame the BOD is held hostage by the bidding chapter who is allowed to set the conditions of the meet. What's to prevent a lone bidder for the 2009 meet from saying the same thing? And what if the BOD then insists the chapter have a judged show? Won't that be hypocritical in hindsight to what happens in 2008? Because the amount of cars won't be as high? That's not a good reason. In a perfect world, there would be too many cars to count at a National.

I go back to the CORE reason for my disappointment. Stewardship. We have a duty as an organization representing the Buick Motor Car to maintain a high body of factory correct seniors so that what was a Buick will be preserved for as long as possible. Senior cars come and go, some owners pass away, and relatives sell the cars to 3rd parties that may just have general collections, or museums, or they are driven and no longer qualify for senior status. The REQUIREMENT to have a judged National meet every year preserves the restoration and preservation of our history. We should not take one year off for "a casual get together and party among friends", period.

The issue of judging in Flint NEEDS revisited. I highly doubt there will be any more discussion from our leadership on this issue. What's voted on is done, right? It's not the leadership that should revisit this decision, it's BUICKTOWN. Sure, a National is meant to be a good time but it has a purpose too. What do you do at the awards banquet anyway on Saturday night?

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Jake,

I could not have said it better even on my best day. I agree with everylthing you say.

The question of 400 point judging came up at our chapter meeting last week and our membership was totally in shock when it was said that judging might be skipped for Flint '08.

The by-laws were brought up and it was asked "why", "how". Why won't there be a judged meet and how can they go against the by-laws of the National Organization.

I do believe there are many chapters that feel the same as our chapter. A little pressure on the National Board might get them to see just how the membership feels. I guess they must already know since you say that the majority of members attending the meeting were in favor of judging except for Buicktown.

???????????

Stevo

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Jake, you are a master wordsmith. I, too, could not have said it better. I want to know who said you can't have fun and good times at a judged event? For those who want to just pull out a lawn chair and sit in the shade beside their car, what's keeping them?

Judging is what sets a Nationals aside from any other Buick event. Will judging so many cars be easy? Nope. We might have to have two judging sessions. I'm quite certain you can find many judges that will work two shifts and enjoy it. There must be a sensible method of judging a lot of cars. The number of judges come out of the number of members coming to the show. The more members coming to the show, the more judges you will have. The classes can be arranged such that the number of classes will fit the number of judges.

Let's give the BCA Nationals the respect it deserves. Taking away the judging will deminish the importance of a National by lowering the bar. I would encourage the Buicktown Chapter to not get discouraged by the number of cars attending, but to put their heads together and figure it out.

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3Jakes, let's look at a few of the issues you mention.

You desire to attend a BCA National Meet to use existing and new Seniors as reference for your future restored Buicks. This is a very good idea! But there can be some pitfalls in that orientation. For example, if the car has been restored, there is a distinct possibility that it has been "over restored" (i.e., nicer than when it was built by the factory), which is a "non-deduct" indiscretion in BCA judging (as I understand it). There's no harm in wanting your pride and joy to look better than when it was new, but that's not really accurate to the "end of the assembly line" standard. It might be better to seek out unrestored original vehicles and also look at those in the Archival Class, if there are any similar to what you might be looking for. Only looking at judged Senior vehicles, while a good orientation, is not the ONLY resource you should consider using.

When I was at Flint in 1988, for that year's BCA National Meet (non-judged, with the 400 point judging system first used in 1989, if I recall correctly), I was amazed to see the number of unrestored original cars on the show field. But then I remembered that I was "up north" where these vehicles might have been put up for the winter rather than down south were that didn't really need to happen. Sure, the paint on the top of the fenders of a 1957 Caballero wagon might be thin, but it's original (as was the basic car, with something like 50K miles on it). Or the 1964 Riviera with 12K original miles (which I doubted until I looked at it very closely, looking for indications that it was not--again, something that I had never seen down here).

How many Buicks? Seems like I recall reading that it was 1200? I do know that it took over an hour to get them out of the parking lot for the city-wide parade. Perhaps, with the 400 point system not yet in place, judging was not so much of an issue rather than bringing your Buick back to Flint to show it off?

On the "hostage" situation. Seems like I heard something about the Buicktown chapter being approached (by BCA operatives) about doing a Flint meet every 5 years from the Centennial Celebration? As you might have seen in other comments on Buicktown-hosted BCA National Meets, their tradition is "non-judged" meets and they desire to maintain that, with all due respect. Maybe the issue of judging was discussed then, or "assumed", or not brought up . . . I don't know.

Many seem to be of the orientation that if a BCA National Meet has no judging, it's not a "national meet". IF . . . IF the Buicktown Chapter had not done their bid for 2008, with no other chapters putting in alternative bid proposals, then 2008 would be a "blank" year for BCA National Meets. On a value scale, what's better . . . a non-judged meet or no meet at all? For some, they seem to be the same . . . your judgment call of whether to support the 2008 meet or not . . . with your $$$$$.

It is the culture of the BCA to have chartered BCA chapters host the yearly BCA National Meet. Unless that changes, the parent organization is somewhat at the mercy of the chapters to host the meets. Hostage? I hope not, but when no indication of a bid proposal for a particular year have been evident, the BCA Board has put out requests for chapters to consider hosting a meet in a particular year.

It is also desired that, for each year's meet to be a financially viable investment for the chapter, the meets do not necessarily repeat in a particular region each year. In other words, they need to move around to reach a different group of Buick owners in the BCA, to hopefully give everybody a chance to attend a BCA National Meet that's close to them. It has been observed that the main "drive-to-the-meet" draw is within a 5 state area from the host chapter's state. Hopefully, there are sufficient BCA members and their cars in that region to put together a financially viable meet in a particular year.

Yes, "Rules are Rules" and "By-Laws are By-laws" and the organization's designated means of self-government. In some places, statutes are on the books, but not strictly enforced (how about speed limits, for example?) whereas statutes covering more serious activities are given more priority. If the majority of the BCA Board of Directors desires to place a higher value on having a yearly BCA National Meet rather than refusing that bid (when none others might exist or were presented) and cancelling the meet for that year as the only bid proposal was for a "non-400 point judged meet", that's their judgment call and the paid-up members have the capabilities of making their orientations known to the Board itself.

It somewhat appears to me that the Board knew the Buicktown Chapter's proposal would be for a non-judged meet well before the national meet this year. Many DO read these forums, for example. Similarly, they also most probably read the comments from Buicktown Chapter members stating their tradition. Not to mention the multitude of forum posters! Therefore, it would appear that everybody went into this deal with their eyes open (i.e., Buicktown and the Board itself).

We elect the Board of Directors to act in our best interests in the operation of the BCA, similar to a city councilperson, for example. If the elected Board made a decision to accept the Buicktown Chapter's 2008 BCA National Meet proposal, as presented and approved, perhaps their orientations might need to be explored at a future BCA Board Meeting (which ANY BCA Chapter can also propose to host!) to possibly find out why they voted as they did. At a future date when "oil pressure" over this issue might have stabilized somewhat. Only thing is that it would be necessary to review the voting record and determine who voted for what and if they are still on the "new" Board.

In one respect, the 2008 BCA National Meet bid proposal of the Buicktown Chapter, BCA has been accepted and approved by a majority of the BCA Board of Directors, so what's approved is how it will be. The two parties have made an agreement and that most probably should be honored. IF there is enough interest in this issue, some might decide to petition the BCA Board to add to the existing By-Laws a section to specify that ALL BCA National Meets need to offer the option of a judged vehicle show (with the 400 point system and judged by BCA judging members ) in each bid proposal. Together with items concerning what could be done when no national meet bids are proposed for a particular calendar year.

This issue does NOT need to evolve into another discussion regarding a BCA National Meet Coordinator either! That is a whole 'nuther issue for which a firm business plan (i.e., profits, responsibilities, who takes care of travel expenses, who covers losses if the show bombs) can be very complicated and involved and also put the BCA at a serious financial liability. So, save those comments for later.

On the issue of "Qualification for a BCA National Meet" (of the vehicle) for judging . . . Many regional and local BCA chapter car show events are not necessarily judged by the 400 point system, therefore how they placed in those shows could not reflect on their possibility of entering a BCA National Meet of the particular vehicle.

Another possibility is an "Invitation ONLY" BCA National Meet judged car show. Deciding which vehicles would be approved or which ones would not would add a few other layers of organization where there currently are none now. Who's going to send in the applications and who's going to approve them AND who's to say that the applications are accurate (even with pictures!)? Lots of potential side issues that could end up "badly".

Putting a limit on the number of vehicles in the 400 point judged meet would also put a cap on the profits of the host chapter. Not a very good thing, with all due respect. At some point in time, that might be a necessity to keep the judged show event more "manageable" or easier to find a venue for, but I don't believe we're ready for that just yet. Some clubs also have "nationals" for different parts of the USA . . . I'm not sure if that's a good idea for the BCA to consider either. In some respects, the existing BCA National Meets seem to be getting too big to find a suitable venue to have them at, but I don't think they are big enough to make two out of it just yet.

It might seem like a good idea to section off a central section of the USA (perhaps with the Mississippi River on the east and the Rocky Mountains on the west) and try to have the BCA National Meets in that area, but not everybody wants to go to that region every year and the host chapter would probably get tired of it too. Moving things around each year is a pretty decent way to do it so that all regions of the USA are eventually used as venues for a BCA National Meet.

In a "continuous feedback loop" orientation, perhaps it's good that the national meet judging issue has come up. It seems to have put some sparks into the membership that can hopefully turn into something positive in the future--maybe even some MORE BCA Board of Director candidates?

A key issue is that the good of the organization is maintained as a central focus of ANY issue which might be considered by the BCA Board of Directors. Which comes back to the issue of whether or not the Buicktown bid should have been approved or not . . . BCA National Meet in 2008 or NO BCA National Meet in 2008 . . . all of which would have hinged upon the 400 point judged show issue.

Perhaps Buicktown has some ideas that have not yet been disclosed? Stay tuned . . . There's still about two years to go, yet.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

NTX5467

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I was hesitaing to post in the fact that I am the instigater of no judging in Flint, based on previous National meets and regional meets. It takes from the event, it takes alot of time for volunteers to judge, it takes from what we are all about, being friends with Buick folks, ok, yeah, I see the points of having a judged meet, I've been a judge in '89 and '90 and '99 and it's not a fun thing to do, but a JOB, You can't do both respectively, show a car and also judge, it just doesn't work, so for '08 we are considering your comments but also looking at alternatives,like maybe some seminars on judging, and other ideas that you folks have already offered will definitely be considered, So have at it, we are welcome to ideas!

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I had prepared a similar response, but I keep getting bounced that I am using an "invalid document to post". However, I concur with this last message, except to add that there does seem to be littlke interest by chapters to host a National, and lets hope someone makes a bid for 2009, or we may be back to Flint then too.

John

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Jake

What a great essay! It should be required reading for all the BCA board members. Maybe they should read the bylaws also!

BOD

Willie

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I take the statement : "The Buicktown chapter is holding the board hostage ",to be ridiculous. I was at the meeting ,and the board was told that if they did not want the national to be a "non judged" meet ,it would not be a problem! the Buicktown chapter would simply convert it to the "Great Lakes regional" Many of you were not around, but if you check the records, there was no meet in 1974, because the Buicktown chapter was "burned out" We did the first three with a small chapter and could not do another. Everyone is crying about the fact that there will be no judging, but why doesn't YOUR chapter step to the front?? The buicktown chapter has done twice as many nationals as the next closest chapter, and there are many chapters that have done NOTHING!! I was told a long time ago " if you can't be a part of the solution to a problem, then you you are part of the problem." Why don't all you whiners step up and volunteer to do the next National? I know they have no bids for 2009!!

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I am older than Joe but I am sure of at least eight national meets in Flint that I have attended.I still have pictures of no. 1 in 1971. Norb

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Joe,

Don't be so hard on them. I am sure most chapters are faced with a similar situation. About 25% of the members would like a National show in their area, but the total number of active numbers are not sufficient to properly conduct such an event.

By the way, anymore thought about coming east for our Regional?

John

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Just some thoughts:

If you are going to do a job, do it the right way or do not do it at all.

If you do not want to play the game my way, I will take my bat, ball and gloves home and then nobody can play.

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Guest BJM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

Willis, it's not for me specifically but for the BCA. Over-restoration usually involves paint application and "show chrome" so the integrity of the restoration which might earn 390-400 points isn't effected. Hnak Deglman's car, now on ebay, highlight my concern over having 400 poiny judging every year. His cars are either seniors or golds and now they are being pursued by folks who (probably are not) may not be BCA members who will maintain the details necessary for an archival "shot" at what a new 58 Roadmaster 75 convertible should look like.

They may go to a museum or wealthy private collector who will store it and never show it for year, you just don't know.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> I see the points of having a judged meet, I've been a judge in '89 and '90 and '99 and it's not a fun thing to do, but a JOB, You can't do both respectively,

I liked judging this year. As a member of the host chapter with other duties I would not expect you to judge. Someone else made the point that with more cars, comes more judges. I think Seattle might have issues with judging then Flint would in 2008.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> For the record - I voted NO ! Dick Sweeney

Thanks Dick. Now if we could hear from the other board members. The more information we have as to why judging was not pursued or even debated, would help. National BOD members typically have more insight and experience into why they make these decisions.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> if they did not want the national to be a "non judged" meet ,it would not be a problem! the Buicktown chapter would simply convert it to the "Great Lakes regional"

Uhmm, old guy, sounds like blackmail to me...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> Everyone is crying about the fact that there will be no judging, but why doesn't YOUR chapter step to the front??

Agreed. This has been an ongoing issue for at least teh last 5 years. I personally think part of the problem is the aging of the membership. If your 65 years old, do you want the stress of hosting a National? Or do you just want to take your nice ride to the National and enjoy?

I'm all for a National in my backyard. I would even volunteer to be a National Meet coordinator and I am sure I could get National meets for at least 2 years out from the date of the last approved National.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> The buicktown chapter has done twice as many nationals as the next closest chapter, and there are many chapters that have done NOTHING!! I was told a long time ago " if you can't be a part of the solution to a problem, then you you are part of the problem." Why don't all you whiners step up and volunteer to do the next National? I know they have no bids for 2009!!

Old guy - if you want I'll join the Buicktown Chapter, come up there regularly for meetings, I'll coordinate the judging for 2008. That's not bulls***. I'll do it. I would monitor registrations and based on your chapter's historical registrations for your National meet, the number of judged cars might have to be limited (see previous comments) but I willmake the personal commitment to drive from central Iowa to the Flint area for 4-5 meetings per year to coordinate the judging portion of what I am sure will be a great National meet with or without judging.

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Jake,

I have never judged since I have only been a BCA member for less than 2 years but count me in. I can be trained as well as any other monkey to do a job and do it right. If you are there and in charge, I will be there. Build it and they will come.

Stevo

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3 Jakes, it is evident that you have never been involved in the preparation for a national meet. It takes more than one person. You can coordinate things to your hearts content, but it still requires people to do all the work! Every year the job gets bigger. The BCA now has more divisions that must be recognized, and the banquets take more and more time because of this. We started planning for the 2003 meet ten years before it became a reality, and the reason that the board is having a problem getting people to host the national is that it is becoming too much for a single chapter to handle. The 2006 meet had two chapters , and it still taxed them for enough people to do the job. They were not able to keep the hospititality suite or registration table open as much as they wanted to because of a lack of manpower. You mention about the aging of the club and must realize that many of us are getting old. I am 73,and many in the Buicktown chapter are equally as old, and you are right, we are just tired ,and want to enjoy the cars and people without any hassle.

I do not look at the offer as blackmail! It was presented to the board, and if they did not want to accept, all they had to do is say "NO" I personnaly would have preferred that it be a regional ,as I like to go different places for our national meet. I have driven a Buick to every national, and hope that I can continue for many more.

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The board voted for Flint because there was no other choice. I cannot disagree with anything said in the preceeding posts, when the rubber meets the road and it is time to make a decision, the vote was but a formality...the only other choice was NO national meet in 2008. If it make you feel better, blame the BCA board, but the real problem is the lack of Chapters coming forward with meet proposals.

Some of the discussion at the board meeting included determining (approving) the national site 3 maybe 4 years in advance instead of the present 2 year plan.

This would give us an extra year in the event the proposal was unacceptable.

Buick Town and Chicago are the two largest Chapters in the BCA. If Buick Town cannot put on a judged event, then why can other smaller chapters? Simple answer, they don't want to. They did a fabalous job in 2003, and will do a great job in 2008. The up side, as someone posted earlier, people may bring cars that would not win trophies, cars that we would not otherwise see. It also does give the attendee more free time.

This year I was on the Board and was expected to attend the general business meeting and the board meeting. I also judged and attended the judges meeting, breakfast, and judged. I only had time for the Elmer's tour. I could not go on the Reatta Rendezvous because of a meeting conflict (I am also the Reatta technical advisor). The only time I had to view the cars was after judging (I was team leader and had the responsibility of getting the judging sheets validated ) and my camera was in the hotel since Saturday was consumed by the judging.

I am no longer on the board because I was the low vote getter.... hopefully it was that lousy picture in the Bugle, and not my performance on the board.

Put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself if you would run for the board again next year? I don't see an upside, I expected we would not make everyone happy, but is it worth the effort and expense?

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Guest BJM

Barney, you are a great board member and I'll miss you. I don't own a Reatta but I'm getting closer everyday, thanks to folks like you and other forum members. Having a National is better then not having one. I only place some fault on the BOD for capitulating so easily to the no judging issue. Clearly, Flint has experience hosting a National so that's not an issue. had the only bid been from a 1st time chapter somewhere, then maybe it would have gotten rejected, I don't know.

Old guy, judging administration is a nationally held office. I am volunteering to administer the judging aspect of the National meet only and I am sure I will have plenty of assistance. I am not saying I will run the whole show. There's Alan Oldfield and Pete Phillips, for instance.

You obviously have the capacity for the cars. BCA has known classes for judging. The awards are provided by BCA?? (Not sure on that one) The judges will be there. We can modify or tweak the system by limiting entrants. I assume there will still be an awards banquet on Saturday night for speeches/Bugle awards, etc.

I'm not going to win this one but don't tell me there aren't members willing to step up and be judges. The meet won't be held for 2 years. I can learn a lot about judging administration/coordination in that time.

I also have experience coordinating events, just not BCA Nationals. Alan Oldfield, our new chief judge, will be in Seattle for his 1st full year on the new job, then unfortunetly, there is no National meet to judge and use his expertise learned in Seattle FOR 2 YEARS.

Perhaps, and I don't know for sure, but perhaps the Rochester meet suffered from low numbers of chapter volunteers. The ones who were there I think did a great job. But there didn't seem to be many around. They did a good job of planning. Old Guy, 2 years is enough time to for me to coordinate judging so that the BCA can have a continuous 400 point judging tradition.

Barney, The driven class is growing every year. These are the folks I think that come and don't want 400 point judging. There has never been any discouragement that I can think of - of just bringing what you have. In 1997, at St. Louis I had the worst car there. A 64 LeSabre convertible that leaned to one side!

Old Guy, my offer stands and I am going to send in my chapter application for Buicktown. BUT, if I do come up (I need to do some research at Sloan Museum anyway) don't kill the messenger please! I don't want to be told the next meeting is in the middle of the town lake and I need a boat the get there, and oh by way, hold this cinder block <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Gotta get back to the 49 Roadmaster....

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Enough already about the judging. Just go and take in the sites, go on the tours, mingle with Buicks and Buick people and don't worry about spit shining your Buick so it can be judged in the oppressive heat or a rainstorm. Just go to have a good time. Most National meets have judging, this is a welcome change in my opinion. Go for it Buicktown!

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FINALLY! A post from a gentlemen who's head is screwed on without a left-hand thread!

Bob Leets <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Ok, you all two or three of ya that don't want judging in Flint can go fly a kite, would be way more fun for me, that's for sure. IT's a done deal, and when the group from Buicktown championing this mess meets in next week or so, and decides it's going to be a Great Lakes Regional, and there will be no National Meet in 2008, then what are you going to do about it? We want to have fun, you can bring your pretty car and show it off, as in reality, your car is your trophy, not some $6 plaque or some other piece to put on the wall, if you have a wall to put it on, my walls are already covered with pictures of my cars, and I like it that way, trophies, just get dirty, and such! I'll be very serious about this shortly. We may have to make a major change in plans, as I have a new work assignment that will take me out of the loop, somewhat, more to come. R

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3 Jakes, when you get a few years into the judging , you will find that it is EXTREMELY difficult to get judges! Every year there are new judges, and they try hard, but it is difficult . The program we use is modeled after the AACA judging system, and they have a cadre of judges that do 10-15 shows a year. using this system once a year ,and training new judges every year is a thankless task! Mac Blair, Rick Shick, and now Alan Oldfield have a tremendous task. They work hard, but it is almost impossible to have any continuity in the judging system. What you don't seem to realize is that there is much more to judging than going out on the field. I have seen 17-18 year old girls judging, and I find it very hard to believe that they are competent. I know this will open a can of worms,but it is one of the problems we face.

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