FLINT '08

[serb]

Is it judged or not judged? I have seen it both ways on this forum. If it is not judged, I will have to think long and hard about taking my car to Flint. It is only 5-6 hours away; I was looking forward to the '08 nationals but not being judged, disappoints me. Since last lyear, I have been working on the items that I got hit for. I think I have almost all of them fixed. I know that different judges look at a car in different ways but all things being equal...I should move from a silver to a gold. Why worry about it, the next meet in '09 will be out west which means '10 is the next judged meet for me. Who knows, I can be old, worn out and beat by then (my car included).

TOO BAD!!

Stevo

[Pete Phillips]

The BCA Board approved a national meet with no judging for Flint in 2008. Unfortunately, no other 2008 national meet bids were submitted, so there was little choice. I would have preferred a judged meet, also.

Pete Phillips

BCA #7338

[Guest wildcat62]

I too, wish judging was an option. Not just for bringing out a car, but for continuing to learn how to be a good judge. This was second year judging at a National and I can say I did a much better job than my first, and I look forward to gaining more education and learning to be a better judge.

But...I can say I attended the Board of Directors meeting in Rochester and listening to the 2008 proposal. It sure seems like they have a pretty fun meet planned. The idea of a less formal celebration does have it's charms. I think of this particularly since that scramble between the judges meeting and cleaning up the car before judging begins is really hectic. I know I'll be there and it sounds like the Buicktown chapter has many great ideas and good plans in place to make sure people have a fun time.

If I recall correctly, and please someone correct me if I am wrong, BCA meets are not necessarily moved region to region each year. Any chapter can bid. The BOD will listen to all proposals and then make a decision. This is what I observed in Kokomo and what happened when our chapter bid in Plano. I've heard rumors of a possible bid from Florida for 2009.

After having been involved in helping to organize and run part of a National meet, I can say I have TONS of respect for the amount of work, time, and effort involved. I'm going to give a respectful nod to any chapter willing to take on such a monumental task and thank them.

That's just my opinionated 2 cents.

[Mr Buick]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The BCA Board approved a national meet with no judging for Flint in 2008. Unfortunately, no other 2008 national meet bids were submitted, so there was little choice. I would have preferred a judged meet, also.

Pete Phillips

BCA #7338 </div></div>

Pete, Instead of making it a "judged" show or "nonjudged" show, why not change things around a bit for Flint '08.....Why not make it a little less "formal" and have it set up so the public coming in to view the cars gets a ballot, and votes on their favorites, have a number trophies per class? Kind of like a "local" car show but on a bigger scale. Or, try this, every vehicle that comes to the meet will receive a jug when registered, and the public would come in and vote for their favorite by dropping money into the jug, (this would be Saturday only) the cars that raise the most money will win the trophies and the proceeds raised will go toward a charity of some sort, either locally or nationally. The car owners can have some fun and be creative to encourage the voters to give to their vehicle. Dressing in "goofy" costumes, or doing something to attract the public to their vehicles to garner the money (votes). Of course this would have to be promoted locally prior to the day of voting, but I think it could be fun and a change from the norm, especially if there is no judging at the Flint National anyway. I have seen these types of shows here in Wisconsin and they seem to go over well. Just my thoughts.

John

[Guest BJM]

What a political football this is. The by-laws stipulate that there needs to be 400 point judging at a national meet. A recent survey on this forum was overwhelming in it's favor of judging at the National meet. I attended the General Membership meeting in Rochester and most were in favor of 400 point judging at a National meet EXCEPT the folks representing FLINT.

So who is running the show here? Was the BOD held hostage by the Buicktown chapter because it is the fabled hometown chapter and because there were no other national bids for a meet still 2 years away?

Seems to me that is the case. Of course, BUICKTOWN will take offense at my remarks. But there are overwhelming reasons for having a 400 point judged show at EVERY BCA National, without exception.

The fellow from the BUICKTOWN chapter that spoke up at the General Membership meeting (I was not at the board meeting - I was in the salvage yard) stated he expected 700 plus cars and that's too many to judge.

My position is simple: The BCA has an ongoing mission as a steward of factory correct Buick products to judge at a high level annually to maintain the quality of the restored Buick motorcar.

Getting an award is personal achievement. Having a body of known correct senior cars is a membership obligation and challenge. the issue would be minimized IF the 2007 national was held in the mid-west because perhaps it would attract enough golds/seniors/restored cars to allow a year to be skipped but as was previously pointed out in this post, some folks will have to wait until 2009 or 2010 to show their cars.

No. 2 is the quality of judging. Everyone wants to complain that the seniority of judges is bad but how am I going to become better unless I judge every year or 4 out of 5 years?

I was a 1st time judge this year and enjoyed it. I am motivated to continue BUT I can not make Seattle 2007. There is no judging in 2008, there is no way to know where the National will be in 2009 but at the least I am 2 plus years away from judging my next National.

I know, I know - there are Regionals. Fine - but the number's are less and there are fewer Senior cars there to review prior to digging into Gold/Silver/Bronze class cars. I reviewed 4 Seniors before I even got to a car in my class at Rochester as a 1st timer. The purpose of a Regional is to attract newer restorations so they don't have to go across the U.S. to get 400 point judged. Regional 400 point judging allows fine tuning of a judged car prior to the biggest judged stage in the world for a Buick car. It is not a replacement for a National. Which leads to my next point...

How about thinking outside the box on judging at Flint for change? How about - limiting the number of judged cars to a normal National field. We had approximately 200 judges cars in Rochester. (475 registered cars I think) In order to control the judging, require a minimum score at a regional or prior National within the past year. Therefore, you will get cars must "qualify" for judging at the National. Limit the entrants per class to the best 10, if needed. This would allow a manageable amount of judged vehicles at a very high level of quality.

Again, I use the "Super Bowl" analogy. This is the Super Bowl of Buick collecting (a National Meet). What if the NFL said "we are cancelling the game this year but encourage you to come to the week long party".

It's a shame the BOD is held hostage by the bidding chapter who is allowed to set the conditions of the meet. What's to prevent a lone bidder for the 2009 meet from saying the same thing? And what if the BOD then insists the chapter have a judged show? Won't that be hypocritical in hindsight to what happens in 2008? Because the amount of cars won't be as high? That's not a good reason. In a perfect world, there would be too many cars to count at a National.

I go back to the CORE reason for my disappointment. Stewardship. We have a duty as an organization representing the Buick Motor Car to maintain a high body of factory correct seniors so that what was a Buick will be preserved for as long as possible. Senior cars come and go, some owners pass away, and relatives sell the cars to 3rd parties that may just have general collections, or museums, or they are driven and no longer qualify for senior status. The REQUIREMENT to have a judged National meet every year preserves the restoration and preservation of our history. We should not take one year off for "a casual get together and party among friends", period.

The issue of judging in Flint NEEDS revisited. I highly doubt there will be any more discussion from our leadership on this issue. What's voted on is done, right? It's not the leadership that should revisit this decision, it's BUICKTOWN. Sure, a National is meant to be a good time but it has a purpose too. What do you do at the awards banquet anyway on Saturday night?

[serb]

Jake,

I could not have said it better even on my best day. I agree with everylthing you say.

The question of 400 point judging came up at our chapter meeting last week and our membership was totally in shock when it was said that judging might be skipped for Flint '08.

The by-laws were brought up and it was asked "why", "how". Why won't there be a judged meet and how can they go against the by-laws of the National Organization.

I do believe there are many chapters that feel the same as our chapter. A little pressure on the National Board might get them to see just how the membership feels. I guess they must already know since you say that the majority of members attending the meeting were in favor of judging except for Buicktown.

???????????

Stevo

[TxBuicks]

Jake, you are a master wordsmith. I, too, could not have said it better. I want to know who said you can't have fun and good times at a judged event? For those who want to just pull out a lawn chair and sit in the shade beside their car, what's keeping them?

Judging is what sets a Nationals aside from any other Buick event. Will judging so many cars be easy? Nope. We might have to have two judging sessions. I'm quite certain you can find many judges that will work two shifts and enjoy it. There must be a sensible method of judging a lot of cars. The number of judges come out of the number of members coming to the show. The more members coming to the show, the more judges you will have. The classes can be arranged such that the number of classes will fit the number of judges.

Let's give the BCA Nationals the respect it deserves. Taking away the judging will deminish the importance of a National by lowering the bar. I would encourage the Buicktown Chapter to not get discouraged by the number of cars attending, but to put their heads together and figure it out.

[NTX5467]

3Jakes, let's look at a few of the issues you mention.

You desire to attend a BCA National Meet to use existing and new Seniors as reference for your future restored Buicks. This is a very good idea! But there can be some pitfalls in that orientation. For example, if the car has been restored, there is a distinct possibility that it has been "over restored" (i.e., nicer than when it was built by the factory), which is a "non-deduct" indiscretion in BCA judging (as I understand it). There's no harm in wanting your pride and joy to look better than when it was new, but that's not really accurate to the "end of the assembly line" standard. It might be better to seek out unrestored original vehicles and also look at those in the Archival Class, if there are any similar to what you might be looking for. Only looking at judged Senior vehicles, while a good orientation, is not the ONLY resource you should consider using.

When I was at Flint in 1988, for that year's BCA National Meet (non-judged, with the 400 point judging system first used in 1989, if I recall correctly), I was amazed to see the number of unrestored original cars on the show field. But then I remembered that I was "up north" where these vehicles might have been put up for the winter rather than down south were that didn't really need to happen. Sure, the paint on the top of the fenders of a 1957 Caballero wagon might be thin, but it's original (as was the basic car, with something like 50K miles on it). Or the 1964 Riviera with 12K original miles (which I doubted until I looked at it very closely, looking for indications that it was not--again, something that I had never seen down here).

How many Buicks? Seems like I recall reading that it was 1200? I do know that it took over an hour to get them out of the parking lot for the city-wide parade. Perhaps, with the 400 point system not yet in place, judging was not so much of an issue rather than bringing your Buick back to Flint to show it off?

On the "hostage" situation. Seems like I heard something about the Buicktown chapter being approached (by BCA operatives) about doing a Flint meet every 5 years from the Centennial Celebration? As you might have seen in other comments on Buicktown-hosted BCA National Meets, their tradition is "non-judged" meets and they desire to maintain that, with all due respect. Maybe the issue of judging was discussed then, or "assumed", or not brought up . . . I don't know.

Many seem to be of the orientation that if a BCA National Meet has no judging, it's not a "national meet". IF . . . IF the Buicktown Chapter had not done their bid for 2008, with no other chapters putting in alternative bid proposals, then 2008 would be a "blank" year for BCA National Meets. On a value scale, what's better . . . a non-judged meet or no meet at all? For some, they seem to be the same . . . your judgment call of whether to support the 2008 meet or not . . . with your $$$$$.

It is the culture of the BCA to have chartered BCA chapters host the yearly BCA National Meet. Unless that changes, the parent organization is somewhat at the mercy of the chapters to host the meets. Hostage? I hope not, but when no indication of a bid proposal for a particular year have been evident, the BCA Board has put out requests for chapters to consider hosting a meet in a particular year.

It is also desired that, for each year's meet to be a financially viable investment for the chapter, the meets do not necessarily repeat in a particular region each year. In other words, they need to move around to reach a different group of Buick owners in the BCA, to hopefully give everybody a chance to attend a BCA National Meet that's close to them. It has been observed that the main "drive-to-the-meet" draw is within a 5 state area from the host chapter's state. Hopefully, there are sufficient BCA members and their cars in that region to put together a financially viable meet in a particular year.

Yes, "Rules are Rules" and "By-Laws are By-laws" and the organization's designated means of self-government. In some places, statutes are on the books, but not strictly enforced (how about speed limits, for example?) whereas statutes covering more serious activities are given more priority. If the majority of the BCA Board of Directors desires to place a higher value on having a yearly BCA National Meet rather than refusing that bid (when none others might exist or were presented) and cancelling the meet for that year as the only bid proposal was for a "non-400 point judged meet", that's their judgment call and the paid-up members have the capabilities of making their orientations known to the Board itself.

It somewhat appears to me that the Board knew the Buicktown Chapter's proposal would be for a non-judged meet well before the national meet this year. Many DO read these forums, for example. Similarly, they also most probably read the comments from Buicktown Chapter members stating their tradition. Not to mention the multitude of forum posters! Therefore, it would appear that everybody went into this deal with their eyes open (i.e., Buicktown and the Board itself).

We elect the Board of Directors to act in our best interests in the operation of the BCA, similar to a city councilperson, for example. If the elected Board made a decision to accept the Buicktown Chapter's 2008 BCA National Meet proposal, as presented and approved, perhaps their orientations might need to be explored at a future BCA Board Meeting (which ANY BCA Chapter can also propose to host!) to possibly find out why they voted as they did. At a future date when "oil pressure" over this issue might have stabilized somewhat. Only thing is that it would be necessary to review the voting record and determine who voted for what and if they are still on the "new" Board.

In one respect, the 2008 BCA National Meet bid proposal of the Buicktown Chapter, BCA has been accepted and approved by a majority of the BCA Board of Directors, so what's approved is how it will be. The two parties have made an agreement and that most probably should be honored. IF there is enough interest in this issue, some might decide to petition the BCA Board to add to the existing By-Laws a section to specify that ALL BCA National Meets need to offer the option of a judged vehicle show (with the 400 point system and judged by BCA judging members ) in each bid proposal. Together with items concerning what could be done when no national meet bids are proposed for a particular calendar year.

This issue does NOT need to evolve into another discussion regarding a BCA National Meet Coordinator either! That is a whole 'nuther issue for which a firm business plan (i.e., profits, responsibilities, who takes care of travel expenses, who covers losses if the show bombs) can be very complicated and involved and also put the BCA at a serious financial liability. So, save those comments for later.

On the issue of "Qualification for a BCA National Meet" (of the vehicle) for judging . . . Many regional and local BCA chapter car show events are not necessarily judged by the 400 point system, therefore how they placed in those shows could not reflect on their possibility of entering a BCA National Meet of the particular vehicle.

Another possibility is an "Invitation ONLY" BCA National Meet judged car show. Deciding which vehicles would be approved or which ones would not would add a few other layers of organization where there currently are none now. Who's going to send in the applications and who's going to approve them AND who's to say that the applications are accurate (even with pictures!)? Lots of potential side issues that could end up "badly".

Putting a limit on the number of vehicles in the 400 point judged meet would also put a cap on the profits of the host chapter. Not a very good thing, with all due respect. At some point in time, that might be a necessity to keep the judged show event more "manageable" or easier to find a venue for, but I don't believe we're ready for that just yet. Some clubs also have "nationals" for different parts of the USA . . . I'm not sure if that's a good idea for the BCA to consider either. In some respects, the existing BCA National Meets seem to be getting too big to find a suitable venue to have them at, but I don't think they are big enough to make two out of it just yet.

It might seem like a good idea to section off a central section of the USA (perhaps with the Mississippi River on the east and the Rocky Mountains on the west) and try to have the BCA National Meets in that area, but not everybody wants to go to that region every year and the host chapter would probably get tired of it too. Moving things around each year is a pretty decent way to do it so that all regions of the USA are eventually used as venues for a BCA National Meet.

In a "continuous feedback loop" orientation, perhaps it's good that the national meet judging issue has come up. It seems to have put some sparks into the membership that can hopefully turn into something positive in the future--maybe even some MORE BCA Board of Director candidates?

A key issue is that the good of the organization is maintained as a central focus of ANY issue which might be considered by the BCA Board of Directors. Which comes back to the issue of whether or not the Buicktown bid should have been approved or not . . . BCA National Meet in 2008 or NO BCA National Meet in 2008 . . . all of which would have hinged upon the 400 point judged show issue.

Perhaps Buicktown has some ideas that have not yet been disclosed? Stay tuned . . . There's still about two years to go, yet.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

NTX5467

[BUICK RACER]

I was hesitaing to post in the fact that I am the instigater of no judging in Flint, based on previous National meets and regional meets. It takes from the event, it takes alot of time for volunteers to judge, it takes from what we are all about, being friends with Buick folks, ok, yeah, I see the points of having a judged meet, I've been a judge in '89 and '90 and '99 and it's not a fun thing to do, but a JOB, You can't do both respectively, show a car and also judge, it just doesn't work, so for '08 we are considering your comments but also looking at alternatives,like maybe some seminars on judging, and other ideas that you folks have already offered will definitely be considered, So have at it, we are welcome to ideas!

[jscheib]

I had prepared a similar response, but I keep getting bounced that I am using an "invalid document to post". However, I concur with this last message, except to add that there does seem to be littlke interest by chapters to host a National, and lets hope someone makes a bid for 2009, or we may be back to Flint then too.

John

[old-tank]

Jake

What a great essay! It should be required reading for all the BCA board members. Maybe they should read the bylaws also!

BOD

Willie

[Mr Riviera]

For the record - I voted NO ! Dick Sweeney

[The Old Guy]

I take the statement : "The Buicktown chapter is holding the board hostage ",to be ridiculous. I was at the meeting ,and the board was told that if they did not want the national to be a "non judged" meet ,it would not be a problem! the Buicktown chapter would simply convert it to the "Great Lakes regional" Many of you were not around, but if you check the records, there was no meet in 1974, because the Buicktown chapter was "burned out" We did the first three with a small chapter and could not do another. Everyone is crying about the fact that there will be no judging, but why doesn't YOUR chapter step to the front?? The buicktown chapter has done twice as many nationals as the next closest chapter, and there are many chapters that have done NOTHING!! I was told a long time ago " if you can't be a part of the solution to a problem, then you you are part of the problem." Why don't all you whiners step up and volunteer to do the next National? I know they have no bids for 2009!!

[Guest norb]

I am older than Joe but I am sure of at least eight national meets in Flint that I have attended.I still have pictures of no. 1 in 1971. Norb

[jscheib]

Joe,

Don't be so hard on them. I am sure most chapters are faced with a similar situation. About 25% of the members would like a National show in their area, but the total number of active numbers are not sufficient to properly conduct such an event.

By the way, anymore thought about coming east for our Regional?

John

[serb]

Just some thoughts:

If you are going to do a job, do it the right way or do not do it at all.

If you do not want to play the game my way, I will take my bat, ball and gloves home and then nobody can play.

[Guest BJM]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

Willis, it's not for me specifically but for the BCA. Over-restoration usually involves paint application and "show chrome" so the integrity of the restoration which might earn 390-400 points isn't effected. Hnak Deglman's car, now on ebay, highlight my concern over having 400 poiny judging every year. His cars are either seniors or golds and now they are being pursued by folks who (probably are not) may not be BCA members who will maintain the details necessary for an archival "shot" at what a new 58 Roadmaster 75 convertible should look like.

They may go to a museum or wealthy private collector who will store it and never show it for year, you just don't know.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> I see the points of having a judged meet, I've been a judge in '89 and '90 and '99 and it's not a fun thing to do, but a JOB, You can't do both respectively,

I liked judging this year. As a member of the host chapter with other duties I would not expect you to judge. Someone else made the point that with more cars, comes more judges. I think Seattle might have issues with judging then Flint would in 2008.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> For the record - I voted NO ! Dick Sweeney

Thanks Dick. Now if we could hear from the other board members. The more information we have as to why judging was not pursued or even debated, would help. National BOD members typically have more insight and experience into why they make these decisions.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> if they did not want the national to be a "non judged" meet ,it would not be a problem! the Buicktown chapter would simply convert it to the "Great Lakes regional"

Uhmm, old guy, sounds like blackmail to me...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> Everyone is crying about the fact that there will be no judging, but why doesn't YOUR chapter step to the front??

Agreed. This has been an ongoing issue for at least teh last 5 years. I personally think part of the problem is the aging of the membership. If your 65 years old, do you want the stress of hosting a National? Or do you just want to take your nice ride to the National and enjoy?

I'm all for a National in my backyard. I would even volunteer to be a National Meet coordinator and I am sure I could get National meets for at least 2 years out from the date of the last approved National.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div> The buicktown chapter has done twice as many nationals as the next closest chapter, and there are many chapters that have done NOTHING!! I was told a long time ago " if you can't be a part of the solution to a problem, then you you are part of the problem." Why don't all you whiners step up and volunteer to do the next National? I know they have no bids for 2009!!

Old guy - if you want I'll join the Buicktown Chapter, come up there regularly for meetings, I'll coordinate the judging for 2008. That's not bulls***. I'll do it. I would monitor registrations and based on your chapter's historical registrations for your National meet, the number of judged cars might have to be limited (see previous comments) but I willmake the personal commitment to drive from central Iowa to the Flint area for 4-5 meetings per year to coordinate the judging portion of what I am sure will be a great National meet with or without judging.

[serb]

Jake,

I have never judged since I have only been a BCA member for less than 2 years but count me in. I can be trained as well as any other monkey to do a job and do it right. If you are there and in charge, I will be there. Build it and they will come.

Stevo

[The Old Guy]

3 Jakes, it is evident that you have never been involved in the preparation for a national meet. It takes more than one person. You can coordinate things to your hearts content, but it still requires people to do all the work! Every year the job gets bigger. The BCA now has more divisions that must be recognized, and the banquets take more and more time because of this. We started planning for the 2003 meet ten years before it became a reality, and the reason that the board is having a problem getting people to host the national is that it is becoming too much for a single chapter to handle. The 2006 meet had two chapters , and it still taxed them for enough people to do the job. They were not able to keep the hospititality suite or registration table open as much as they wanted to because of a lack of manpower. You mention about the aging of the club and must realize that many of us are getting old. I am 73,and many in the Buicktown chapter are equally as old, and you are right, we are just tired ,and want to enjoy the cars and people without any hassle.

I do not look at the offer as blackmail! It was presented to the board, and if they did not want to accept, all they had to do is say "NO" I personnaly would have preferred that it be a regional ,as I like to go different places for our national meet. I have driven a Buick to every national, and hope that I can continue for many more.

[Barney Eaton]

The board voted for Flint because there was no other choice. I cannot disagree with anything said in the preceeding posts, when the rubber meets the road and it is time to make a decision, the vote was but a formality...the only other choice was NO national meet in 2008. If it make you feel better, blame the BCA board, but the real problem is the lack of Chapters coming forward with meet proposals.

Some of the discussion at the board meeting included determining (approving) the national site 3 maybe 4 years in advance instead of the present 2 year plan.

This would give us an extra year in the event the proposal was unacceptable.

Buick Town and Chicago are the two largest Chapters in the BCA. If Buick Town cannot put on a judged event, then why can other smaller chapters? Simple answer, they don't want to. They did a fabalous job in 2003, and will do a great job in 2008. The up side, as someone posted earlier, people may bring cars that would not win trophies, cars that we would not otherwise see. It also does give the attendee more free time.

This year I was on the Board and was expected to attend the general business meeting and the board meeting. I also judged and attended the judges meeting, breakfast, and judged. I only had time for the Elmer's tour. I could not go on the Reatta Rendezvous because of a meeting conflict (I am also the Reatta technical advisor). The only time I had to view the cars was after judging (I was team leader and had the responsibility of getting the judging sheets validated ) and my camera was in the hotel since Saturday was consumed by the judging.

I am no longer on the board because I was the low vote getter.... hopefully it was that lousy picture in the Bugle, and not my performance on the board.

Put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself if you would run for the board again next year? I don't see an upside, I expected we would not make everyone happy, but is it worth the effort and expense?

[Guest BJM]

Barney, you are a great board member and I'll miss you. I don't own a Reatta but I'm getting closer everyday, thanks to folks like you and other forum members. Having a National is better then not having one. I only place some fault on the BOD for capitulating so easily to the no judging issue. Clearly, Flint has experience hosting a National so that's not an issue. had the only bid been from a 1st time chapter somewhere, then maybe it would have gotten rejected, I don't know.

Old guy, judging administration is a nationally held office. I am volunteering to administer the judging aspect of the National meet only and I am sure I will have plenty of assistance. I am not saying I will run the whole show. There's Alan Oldfield and Pete Phillips, for instance.

You obviously have the capacity for the cars. BCA has known classes for judging. The awards are provided by BCA?? (Not sure on that one) The judges will be there. We can modify or tweak the system by limiting entrants. I assume there will still be an awards banquet on Saturday night for speeches/Bugle awards, etc.

I'm not going to win this one but don't tell me there aren't members willing to step up and be judges. The meet won't be held for 2 years. I can learn a lot about judging administration/coordination in that time.

I also have experience coordinating events, just not BCA Nationals. Alan Oldfield, our new chief judge, will be in Seattle for his 1st full year on the new job, then unfortunetly, there is no National meet to judge and use his expertise learned in Seattle FOR 2 YEARS.

Perhaps, and I don't know for sure, but perhaps the Rochester meet suffered from low numbers of chapter volunteers. The ones who were there I think did a great job. But there didn't seem to be many around. They did a good job of planning. Old Guy, 2 years is enough time to for me to coordinate judging so that the BCA can have a continuous 400 point judging tradition.

Barney, The driven class is growing every year. These are the folks I think that come and don't want 400 point judging. There has never been any discouragement that I can think of - of just bringing what you have. In 1997, at St. Louis I had the worst car there. A 64 LeSabre convertible that leaned to one side!

Old Guy, my offer stands and I am going to send in my chapter application for Buicktown. BUT, if I do come up (I need to do some research at Sloan Museum anyway) don't kill the messenger please! I don't want to be told the next meeting is in the middle of the town lake and I need a boat the get there, and oh by way, hold this cinder block <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Gotta get back to the 49 Roadmaster....

[lrg50]

Enough already about the judging. Just go and take in the sites, go on the tours, mingle with Buicks and Buick people and don't worry about spit shining your Buick so it can be judged in the oppressive heat or a rainstorm. Just go to have a good time. Most National meets have judging, this is a welcome change in my opinion. Go for it Buicktown!

[raleets]

FINALLY! A post from a gentlemen who's head is screwed on without a left-hand thread!

Bob Leets <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[BUICK RACER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FINALLY! A post from a gentlemen who's head is screwed on without a left-hand thread!

Bob Leets <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Ok, you all two or three of ya that don't want judging in Flint can go fly a kite, would be way more fun for me, that's for sure. IT's a done deal, and when the group from Buicktown championing this mess meets in next week or so, and decides it's going to be a Great Lakes Regional, and there will be no National Meet in 2008, then what are you going to do about it? We want to have fun, you can bring your pretty car and show it off, as in reality, your car is your trophy, not some $6 plaque or some other piece to put on the wall, if you have a wall to put it on, my walls are already covered with pictures of my cars, and I like it that way, trophies, just get dirty, and such! I'll be very serious about this shortly. We may have to make a major change in plans, as I have a new work assignment that will take me out of the loop, somewhat, more to come. R

[The Old Guy]

3 Jakes, when you get a few years into the judging , you will find that it is EXTREMELY difficult to get judges! Every year there are new judges, and they try hard, but it is difficult . The program we use is modeled after the AACA judging system, and they have a cadre of judges that do 10-15 shows a year. using this system once a year ,and training new judges every year is a thankless task! Mac Blair, Rick Shick, and now Alan Oldfield have a tremendous task. They work hard, but it is almost impossible to have any continuity in the judging system. What you don't seem to realize is that there is much more to judging than going out on the field. I have seen 17-18 year old girls judging, and I find it very hard to believe that they are competent. I know this will open a can of worms,but it is one of the problems we face.

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen 17-18 year old girls judging, and I find it very hard to believe that they are competent. I know this will open a can of worms,but it is one of the problems we face. </div></div>

Not that I want to be compared to a teenaged girl, but even though I attended the judging school this year, I didn't feel competent to judge any class, despite having a variety of Buicks myself. Yes, competency and numbers does lead to a few issues, but so long as members want 400 point judging, they will have to realize that they will have to participate as well. Otherwise there is no point in having judging at all, and that doesn't seem to be the consensus here or at the membership meeting in Rochester.

So here's the question I've been begging to ask, and I mean no offence to Buicktown members. With Buicktown being the largest chapter, and having decent facilities available, as well as experience hosting national shows, why no judging? If you can't put it together, then why is it expected for other chapters? If Gopher State and Fireball (many of whose members belong to both chapters, by the way) chapters were short on volunteers, and Rochester was the Heartland Regional as well, why were no others volunteering to help out? Is a National strictly for a chapter to get stressed and for everyone else to [censored] and complain? As I understand it, judging is a huge component of a National, so without judging, does that just mean Buicktown gets to kick back and relax and put more people on parking patrol?

It's late and I'm tired, so I'm probably not making as much sense as I would like. However, I know I am tired of the bickering. 3Jakes has offered to be Head Judge for the 2008 National. He may be going into it naively, but help has already been offered to him. I don't see why it can't work. If there is a legitimate reason (not just treating Jake like a child who is trying to bite off more than he can chew), please let us know.

Other than watching the sparks fly, I think I'm done with this thread. After attending the Centennial, GM's centennial doesn't mean as much to me...perhaps it will be time for a different type of vacation.

[NTX5467]

3 Jakes, your enthusiasm and stated committment to being involved in national meet judging activities is highly commendable! Similar for others that also desire to become involved!

My point about "over-restoration" is that too many people come to perceive THAT to be the standard that the BCA or other organizations reference to, rather than an accurate "end of the assembly line" reproduction. It's the "O-R" cars that indoor car show attendees usually flock to, rather than a car accurately restored--it's the "O-R" car that THEY perceive to be "correct", unfortunately. Be that as it may . . . it's nothing really "new" by any means.

In getting a chapter to make a bid proposal to host a BCA National Meet, having a willing membership is just ONE of the hurdles to cross. Another MAIN HURDLE is finding a suitable venue for the meet that meets some main BCA criteria (host hotel cost, banquet room size, show field size, indoor swap meet venue, and some others). As I found out in doing some research on my own (in prepration for the 1996 BCA National Meet bid), some parts of the country have hotel venues that are similar to what the BCA members seem to desire (hotel and all show activities on one piece of real estate). We also found out that some places might be really good places for a regional meet, but not quite big enough for a national meet. Luckily, we had a person that we could send in different directions to check out ideas we had for locations--for close to 2 years prior to the finalization of our bid proposal for 1996. For the 2004 meet, we had a better idea of what was out there and quickly narrowed our choices to the final one.

Many hotel/visitor-convention bureau operatives book their events at least one year in advance. Therefore, two years is better to plan and get the date nailed down for them. Plus those things are "contracted" for added security. Trying to do it on a "three years out" basis might not be a contractable situation, especially for room rate pricing. Adding all of those lead times into the mix, and you're looking at basically 4 years from getting chapter approval to make a national meet bid, to making the meet happen.

With an unlimited budget, we could have rented the Dallas Convention Center and had everything inside, but that was not possible. Budgeting is extremely important when you know your meet will be smaller than some of the much larger ones in other parts of the country. In many cases, where it was suspected there would be a great place, there was none or it was way too expensive or not enough banquet space or not enough outside physical space for even show parking, much less trailer parking. Many times, it takes time to find a suitable venue for a BCA National Meet, unless you've "been there before", with all due respect.

I know that you and others might like for Hank's cars to stay within the BCA family, but we'll have to wait and see about that. By observation, there are many dyed-in-the-wool car enthusiasts that don't like to be part of a car club, even if it might help them enjoy their vehicles better . . . much less that they investigate to see what's out there in the way of clubs for their brand of vehicle. Some people are just that way. I hope that somebody gets the car that appreciates it for what it is and treats it with the respect and dignity that it might deserve, maybe even joing the BCA as a result.

Planning and running a BCA National Meet is not much different than running a corporate project or activity. Basic business principles apply there as elsewhere. Basic coordination and planning also apply, but in different orientations and intensities. One of the great things about (what I call) Pete's Reverse Time Line Planning was that a complete two year timetable was laid out of what tasks had to be completed by what time and before what other tasks could be started. THAT was a Masterpiece of effective planning!!!! In ALL cases, you have to consider the attendee (ultimate CUSTOMER) and how what you do might affect their enjoyment of the meet and its many activities.

Judging Administration is a very serious activity, for obvious reasons. When Pete allowed me into "The Room" in Plano, I noticed that everything was highly regimented and controlled, not to mention supplying data that later became the awards ceremony itself. Everything is done in order and highly deliberately,by obervation. What happens on the show field, in judging, is what you see, what goes on in the Judging Administration "The Room" makes it the finished product, which culminates in class printouts by Roy Faries' software programs (for awards issues plus banquet announcements of awards). In some respects, it's one of those total activities that might seem ominous, but when broken down into smaller chunks (with an understanding of what each chunk does and how it interrelates to the other chunks), becomes better manageable.

3 Jakes, IF you might go to the beautiful venue of the June, 2006 Buicktown Chapter's meeting, you'll probably find a small lake with a gazebo overlooking the water vegetation surrounding the hidden shoreline. From the pictures, it looks big enough to host a sizeable regional show! I didn't see a cinder block in sight . . . . but you might not desire to race across the lake with a cylinder head in your arms, hehe . . . just kidding . . . even if the lake is shallow, the bottom is probably a little soft, anyway.

In trying to plan when what happens during the few days of the actual national meet itself, things can become highly hectic. It seems there is some sort of standardized schedule that is desired, but sometimes ends up with lots of meetings/seminars/happenings on one particular day. Kind of like trying to cram a whole week into a weekend, it seems. It can be daunting to try to make them all, much less include the other things like the Driver's Class or a BCA Divisional meeting/activity. And that doesn't include trying to administer to a car on the show field.

I DO like the idea of having a judging seminar in Flint, hopefully with some of those very low mileage original cars in that region. Other than the issues of being a judge and also enjoying the meet, perhaps if more people knew what sort of indiscretion would result in what level of point deduction, it might be an educational experience for all? Knowing the "game plan" can be a key thing in effectively playing the game.

Learning about Buicks in Buick's hometown would have a special meaning, perhaps? I suspect there is still a great knowledge base there, which we can hopefully tap into for these things.

From what I've seen, the AACA is a well-tuned organization. Plus an extremely large organization! As mentioned, if their judges do as much judging as was mentioned, they should be good at what they do. Plus that is a multi-marque organization rather than a specialized organization as the BCA is. As was mentioned at the 1996 meet, (overheard, actually), the BCA should have higher judging standards of correctness as WE are supposed to know what is correct for a Buick rather than any other brand of vehicle. Building our own respective "databases" of accurate information can go a loooonnnggg way toward effective and accurate judging activities. Again, the key words are "accurate information" rather than what we might perceive or desire to be correct in a particular situation on a particular vehicle of a particular model year.

I also like Bob's idea of a meeting/seminar to kick around some ideas of how we might make the national meets better national meets. Maybe we can't solve anything for "two years out", but initiating dialogue can be a start. I feel that anything that can start and maintain a continuous improvement feedback loop situation can be a good thing to do in any organization--not with the orientation of "restructuring" or "reinventing the wheel", just trying to make things better and better each year.

Many people already might have their own versions of "stress" in their lives, much less the additional increases from volunteering to help host or orchestrate a BCA National Meet. Although age can be a factor, it's NOT the only contributing factor!

I DO wish that this whole deal had not become so controversial and intense! In one respect, that is good, but we now need to make something positive and mutually beneficial out of it. I certainly hope that a "105th Anniversary of Buick and 100th Anniversary of General Motors" would not, with all due respect, become a regional meet rather than a BCA National Meet--for any reason.

Take care,

NTX5467

[Guest BJM]

Willis,

As usual you bring up many good points which I will refer to in the future.

Folks, there are 26 entries on this post and I only have 3 of them. I don't want to become the 'poster child' for BCA negativity. I'M NOT. That's why I was very specific about the why we need judging (stewardship/continuity of senior level cars). I have administered judged shows on Sunday where we got done judging at 1pm and even with a computer, it took 3 hours to finish at which time the gathered crowd was ready to kill us for not getting the award portion going by 1:01pm.

So what I get out of the total body of comments on this post is -

1. Flint 2008 will not be a judged meet and the hope is that Buicks of all sort will come in a homecoming atmosphere, and we can spend more time talking with owners and enjoying the cars.

2. The BCA membership at the chapter levels, not necessarily the BOD - needs to step up and present viable bids for judged Nationals for 2009 and beyond and that this process may take more then 2 years to plan. (Thanks Willis)

Old guy, thanks for the comments regarding judging in AACA. Luckily, Pete Phillips will continue to develop good, consistent judges for our National meet. So, as a compromise, can the Buicktown chapter at least try to allocate time/space for a judging seminar that would include real original cars as Willis mentioned? Going fom car to car would be great, as oppossed to seeing a video presentation.

I'll turn my focus personally to the 2009 and 2010 National sites, and my restorations underway...

[Barney Eaton]

At the BCA board meeting, when Buick Town presented their proposal, they were ask about an alternative plan. In that discussion, Roberta stated that something might be workable associated with judges training. I don't know if the SOP requires judges training classes at a national, but again it is one of those activities that some members want (and need).

The thought was.... Someone that had just finished a restoration wants to know how his car stacks up under the 400 point system. There should be a small number of these first time cars and it could be workable that the judges training could encompass "unofficially" judging these cars. This could be a compromise for judging certain cars. Again, this will not make everyone happy and it is another item that the host chapter and the Judging team would need to manage.

[raleets]

3Jakes,

Just curious.....('cause it doesnt' say) how long have you been a member of the BCA? What Chapter are you a member? Have you ever held a Chapter office? You seem to be the "voice of experience" in many matters, so PLEASE enlighten us as to what your experience(s) may be.

No, I'm not trying to cause a ruckus, just attempting to get a better understanding on how you can be as learned and wise on all matters BCA.

Looking forward to your response,

Bob Leets <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Buicktown Chapter Director 3 years

National Board of Director 5 years

"In the hobby" 20 years

[BUICK RACER]

HMM....

[Guest imported_Thriller]

Considering that the membership meeting in Rochester discussed membership and how to attract new members, perhaps enthusiasm and positive attitude should sometimes get the nod over experience, not to say that experience isn't important....

[Guest my3buicks]

I'm going to agree with you 100 % on that one Derek

[Guest BJM]

Mr. Leets. I don't have the BCA resume you have, nor Robertas. I am 42 years old, been in the hobby since I was 11 years old. I asked if I could buy an abandoned Dodge 1/2T PU and the owner gave it to me. I had it running by age 12. I read Richard Langworth's article on the historic 49 GM hardtops in 1978 and began communicating with him. I have been an automobile history junkie since.

My 1st Buick was a 1956 Special 2 door hardtop purchased in 1993. I joined the BCA from an application that was in the glovebox! I joined the Houston Texas BCA chapter and began specifically studying Buicks from then on.

I am not a member of the Hawkeye Chapter (I live in Iowa). I have owned every full size model of the 1964 Buick, a 61 Electra 2 door hardtop, two 72 Electras, one 72 Centuriona nd a 73 Centurion among countless others. I currently own "only" 2 Buicks, a 68 Riviera (my favorite year) and a 49 Roadmaster. I hope to gain enough experience on the Riviera to be a technical advisor.

I was active in the WP Chrysler Club for the Iowa Region. I was membership director and increased regional membership 250% in 2 years. I was also the newsletter editor for 2 years. We organized and ran an annual fall car show that typically runs to 150 to 175 cars. We judge them and hand out trophies in a 4 hour time frame.

I have an extensive professional resume. I am a professional writer for the world's biggest mortgage company. I have written letters for 2 sitting governors after doing research.

You see Mr. Leets, you at one time were NOT a chapter leader nor a member of the Board. At that point,if someone would have asked you about your qualifications, I suspect your answer would have been similar to my own. It's because we both love and enjoy the old car hobby that we are fundementally motivated to serve the club's better purpose.

I am no longer carrying the "judging" torch for Flint 2008 BUT I am advocating for a "better then normal" judging seminar in 2008 AND I will bring motivated chapters to the table for 2009 and 2010. IF I receive extreme resistance from chapters in this goal, then the problem is much bigger then we think and we may be seeing a shift in priorities in the club, I'm not sure.

Guys like Derek and Adam and myself, even at 42 I am one of the younger crowd - need encouragement and motivation. I look to the Robertas, the Willis', Pat Brooks, Barney Eaton, and Paul Meyer for guidance and expertise BUT I am not without my talents.

I remember communicating by email with Roberta probably close to 10 years ago. As far as judging goes, I have been reading, owning and restoring Buicks and cars for 31 years. I am an ASE Master technician who is very familiar with GM's products the past 15 years from 1st hand experience.

I made a personal decision 4 years ago to get out of the WP Chrysler Club, the OCA, and the CLC. I was spread too thin! I decided to only belong to the BCA and to pursue a more active role in the club. (I will be joining several BCA chapters this year, including yours if you don't reject my app) 4 1/2 years ago our daughter Abby was born and that obligation has derailed my club activity. But that adjustment is over. Abby turns wrenches on the Riviera right next to me and the Rochester meet was our family vacation this year.

I hope that explanation is sufficient. Not many guys my age have 31 years of experience and have owned well over 200 cars.

[Guest my3buicks]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3Jakes,

Just curious.....('cause it doesnt' say) how long have you been a member of the BCA? What Chapter are you a member? Have you ever held a Chapter office? You seem to be the "voice of experience" in many matters, so PLEASE enlighten us as to what your experience(s) may be.

No, I'm not trying to cause a ruckus, just attempting to get a better understanding on how you can be as learned and wise on all matters BCA.

Looking forward to your response,

Bob Leets <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Buicktown Chapter Director 3 years

National Board of Director 5 years

"In the hobby" 20 years </div></div>

And we wonder why it is hard to get people into leadership roles in the BCA, we all have to start somewhere. Three cheers 3Jakes, shake up the tree! ! ! !!

[raleets]

3jakes,

Many thanks for your prompt response to my inquiry. As stated, I in no way wanted to create a ruckus, simply acquire a better understanding of your background. You have generously provided that, and I now have a much better appreciation of "where you're coming from".

I've always been one to ask an individual what qualifies them to copius opinions on any given subject. Surely, in your years of professional experiences, you've heard of "background checks"?

Now, on with the subject at hand........as stated in a MUCH earlier post, I'm of the personal opinion the judging hiatus of 2008 would afford the perfect opportunity to round up some folks like yourself and attempt to hammer out as many improvements in the BCA judging system as possible. Rather than whine and grumble about the situation, why not use it to our advantage and put forth a solid effort to improve.

Also, as stated in my earlier posts, I've NEVER felt qualified to judge Buicks which I'm unfamiliar. It simply doesn't seem fair to their owners that a person who has no knowledge of what is, or isn't, correct should stand in judgement of their pride and joy. During my one and only judging experience in Danvers, Mass. I felt like a royal pain in the butt to all of my judging team members because I had no clue if the interior was correct. My many questions, I'm fairly sure, became an irritant to the rest of the judging team.

So.....somehow, someway, by hook or crook, there's got to be a better way to skin this cat. Let's take the golden opportunity by the throat in 2008 and discover the secret!

Go Buick,

Bob Leets <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest johngudaitis]

not to be sarcastic, but the buick crowd has one foot in the grave and the other right behind it. they are that old.

while everybody is arguing about their show points and not enough help, how come you are not inviting younger people to join the bca ????

i have been to 2 nationals and found the older than me(55) quite snobbish. why not invite the crowd to come over, show them the car, 'why not sit in it' or 'how about a ride in my old car' or how about getting along with the modified or hi-performance people. we will let you sit in them and probably drive them. nope, havent seen or heard any of that yet. how about this, when you set up the cars on the field, put 32's and 75's back to back, etc, etc. instead of the current snobbish method.

talk about the cars going to museums or hidden garages, are you willing to sell it at a price the younger crowd can afford(make a contract that the car stays in circulation at a reasonable price) and continue the buick tradition or is it the one who dies with the most money wins???

btw, my buick background goes back to the early 70's racing buicks.

john

[Guest my3buicks]

John, with all due respect, I doubt with your attitude right off the bat here, that you approached or even gave any "OLD" BCA'ers even a chance to show you any kindness, chat with you etc. For many of us our Buicks are our legacies to pass to our children, and most of us can't afford to sell our cars lower than market value nor would it be fair or right to expect our families to forgo their inheritance so that someone got a "steal" on an old car, probably only to turn it over and make a profit.

You obviously have a bee under your bonnett for more than meets the eye.

[NTX5467]

With all due respect, there has been NO ban (or similar) on younger members being asked to join the BCA--FOR ANY REASON. It should also be understood that when you get a vehicle to the level of restored execution that are displayed on the BCA show fields, being somewhat protective of them kind of goes with the situation (after spending time and money and such to get them to be able to be there). By observation, NO DIFFERENT than any other higher level car club event--whether USA brands, "tuner", or otherwise.

There are, and have been for several national meets now, a "Buick and Its Parts" program for younger members of BCA Members' families. It might not be as successful as it might be, at this point in time, but it has been reasonably successful to date. Yet, it's still there where nothing was there before.

You mention openness to allow people to sit in and drive the cars displayed on the show fields. Sure, younger "public" or BCA members might enjoy that sort of thing, but unless a friendly relationship is built with the particular car's owner, you're still something of an "unknown quantity" that many car owners would rather shy away from. Who's to know whether or not this person will show respect toward the property of others (even highly RARE property!) in these "sits" or "drives"? What if something might break on the vehicle while it's being driven by this person? Who's going to pay to get it fixed? If it broke while the owner was driving it, that's one thing, but if it broke while the other person was driving it (possibly in a manner of which the vehicle was not designed to operate in?), does the owner expect the "unknown quantity" to offer to pay or what? COULD the "unknown quantity" be able to pay for the repairs? Sure, you might term that "paranoia" of sorts, but when it's your property the orientation might change somewhat.

As for pricing issues, that would be determined by current market conditions. Also, with the time and effort and monetary investments many car owners (BCA or otherwise) have in their vehicles, they might well desire to know that they will be going to a "good home" where they will be respected and cared for very well. We have seen situations where primo collector cars (not necessarily Buicks) have been sold to somebody that allegedly thought highly of a particular car, even lusting after one, only to see it a year or so later in a state of total deterioration. Deterioration as it was put into daily driver service, "modded", etc. Sure, what the new owner does to the vehicle is their business, but if the seller can somewhat control the situation, that's their decision also. So THAT issue can play both ways.

An example . . . a guy that used to work where I do, found a "Yellow Bird" Pontiac TransAm (approx 1979 model year). It was purchased from the original owner and had been sitting in their garage for a few years. He took the time to go over and change the oil and filter before getting it fired off for the first time--all with the then-current owner's permission and blessing. In other words, he appeared to be highly interested in purchasing the vehicle (which he was). Everything turned out to his satisfaction, so they struck a deal on the car. He came and trailered it away. On the way home, he stopped at a speed shop and bought some aftermarket tires and wheels for it, saving the originals. All looked well and good at this point.

When he got it home, it was his pride and joy. Low miles, garage-kept, very good condition, etc. Only thing was that it sat out all of the time, which means "exposed to the elements", which can mean "hail" in TX in the summer--which DID happen. So he had this reasonably pristine, relatively low production TransAM, original paint, original decals . . . and now it has hail damage. Looks pretty good at 50 feet, but then you see the hail dents as you get closer. Insured? Probably. Easy to fix and be worth what it could have been? Not really as all of the originality that he sought would immediately disappear with the new paint and hail dent repairs. Not all private sellers might be picky about who they sell their vehicles to, but some are.

In another situation, a friend was looking for a 1975 Lincoln. He found one in the newspaper and went to see it. The seller specifically asked him why he wanted that big, old car. My friend told him that he liked the car and wanted to keep it original and nice. The seller made him a deal he could not refuse as most of the other interested parties had wanted it for the big trunk to haul lawnmowers and such in. To his credit, my friend did do what he could to keep the car original and would not have modified it in any way while he had it. So , yes, the seller can determine whom they might desire to sell a vehicle to as it's theirs to sell.

On the issue of what might appear as "dissention" between various groups/divisions in the BCA, there are many items that might not be readily apparent to those that have not followed how these issues have transpired over the past decades, with all due respect. Personally, I feel that the BCA should be for ALL Buicks rather than particular segments of the Buick production mix. With all due respect, every BCA member can determine their own areas of specialization and pursue those orientations as they desire. In talking to other national marque club members, almost every club has some sort of dissention in the membership at one time or another. These things tend to happen in cycles, some cycles longer than others, yet the main orientation is to promote, preserve, and enjoy the vehicles. Really not that much different than segments of a single family unit, which grows and diversifies over the later generations, not always getting along, but still "being family". Similarly, older family members might mentor younger family members (whether "mentor" might be defined as "dictate to" or not could be open for discussion in some situations), whether or not the younger members understand "why" and "how" of various subjects. How these mentoring situations are received by the younger generations can also be highly variable--a definite "point of reference" situation.

As with any beneficial situation, there needs to be a full circle of communications such that all benefit from the sharing of information and experiences regarding particular vehicles (or groups thereof). By observation, this situation has no age boundaries. I've learned a huge amount of information from older members of the automotive hobby and business by asking questions and listening to the answers, then doing my own research to position all of this information such that a viable database is built. The more concurring sources that can be found, the greater the possibility that accurate information (much of which is historical in nature) will exist. Unfortunately, there are "good" information sources and "not-so-good" information sources, so being able to filter the bad from the good is something that will only happen over time. My information was not obtained "overnight", but over many decades of watching, listening,reading, and observing--for what it's worth.

"Perception is reality" is a popular "buzz phrase" for many people, in recent times. Unfortunately, it is not accurate nearly as much as those that seem to subscribe it perceive that it is. If some member of the BCA (or other similar group) is perceived as "snobby", perhaps the correct "way to their heart" (on vehicular issues) has not been found? Many car owners like to talk about their cars, but you have to trip the right triggers to get there--including personal attire, talk, attitude, and appearance. In other words, if you want anything, it has to be on THEIR terms and not otherwise. Once you get through all of the "filters" and "barriers", you might be surprised what might happen.

On another related issue . . . Buicks were never aimed, as new vehicles, at a price point that a younger person could afford. They were configured and oriented more toward "older people" . . . people who had attained a level of income in their later lives so that they could afford a Buick. Sure, there were lower level Buicks (i.e., the "junior" or "small" series cars) that could be afforded by people of lesser means (with a larger downpayment for smaller monthly payments, for example, or the later GMAC 36 month finance periods). Still, a base model Buick did not chase the same customer that Chevrolet (the "value brand" and "entry brand into General Motors") did. Although a slightly-used Buick could be purchased for about the same money that a new, lower trim level Chevrolet might be bought for. So, Buicks were not a "young person's car" as Chevrolets were in that earlier times. EACH GM division had their own focus and clientel, which also tended to relate to the price points of the various division's vehicles. For reference, the divisional hierarchy started at Chevrolet (at the bottom), the went to Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Cadillac, respectively. You started life with a Chevrolet (purchase price and value issues, basically), then moved up to Pontiac, Olds, Buick, and then Cadillac as your age and "place" elevated over the years. That was the way it was designed and worked VERY WELL until recent history (also something aking to what Toyota is orchestrating now!).

So, unless your family "had money", you worked your way UP to a Buick rather than starting at that higher level in the first place--as a new vehicle rather than a used vehicle. By observation, most of the sales demographics that the press like to quote are for new vehicles only, yet if the similar data was tracked for used Buicks, it would reveal that as the new Buick changes hands each time it's traded-in, the age demographics tumble drastically to lower ages of owners.

Unfortunately, or FORTUNATELY, many long-time BCA members were around when their cars were new, or reasonably new. That places their age demographics as you describe. Yet these same BCA members most probably have children (and grand children!) that might be interested in Buicks, although that is not always the case (for whatever reason). I would agree that it's hard to get younger members in a group that is mostly "older", just like getting the female spouses to come along unless there are others similar spouses they can "talk to"--for an example. Sometimes, there are insurmountable generation gaps which can't be easily dealt with.

In the MoPar realm of things, there are many groups for each of the various models and years of Chrylser vehicles. Some are highly segmented, but many have an inter-generational appeal and orientation. I've seen some of the same things in Ford and other GM enthusiast groups too. Many of the more dynamic groups have fathers, offspring, and their kids involved, but that doesn't happen in every case. It does seem to happen more in the groups that are oriented toward the "younger" generation's vehicle orientations (i.e., muscle cars) rather than the "senior" models of vehicles (i.e., Chrysler vs Dodge or Plymouth, Lincoln vs Mercury vs Ford).

As much as we might like for the BCA to be a "one size fits all" or "one club to be all things to all Buick owners/enthusiasts" group, we can strive to attain those noble orientations, but achieving them might not be that easy or doable in the magnitude that might be desired. Again, the the MoPar realm of things, there are multitudes of enthusiast clubs/groups at the local, state, regional, national, and international levels, yet the Walter P. Chrysler Club (a BCA-type equivalent club) seems to get lost in that total mix of activity. Because "Chrysler" is in the name, younger people tend to head toward the other groups, I suspect, yet it was Chrysler model engines that powered the musclecars and drag racing legends that people still talk about (from back when each division had their own particular size of engines, with Chrysler having the largest, yet readily fitting in the lower divisional model vehicles).

At the present time, the age demographics of the "typical Buick owner" and "typical BCA member" are not going to appreciably change in the near future, I suspect. Many ideas have been proposed to attract new and younger members into the BCA, yet I personally feel that a definition of "younger" should include "40-somethings whose kids have left home" rather than (as perceived) "teenagers" or similar.

Also, I believe that if you (or anyone else) might go to www.RegalGS.org, you might find many younger people in that forum. Many working class families that live in the suburbs (from the pictures of their cars in their driveways, typically) and even hard pressed to find somebody in there older than about 45 years old (by observation, a few years ago). Younger people don't drive Buicks, or are interested in Buicks? Just look and see them exchange information and such as older hot-rodders (even some "typical BCA members!!!) exchange information!

What's the problem? The bulk of their cars are "too new" to be on a BCA show field (the "Twelve Year Rule"), which sends them to "other places" to show and play with their cars--not to the BCA. I'm not quite sure where that rule came from, but many BCA members (by observation, with all due respect) consider anything newer than 25 years old (the general definition age of an "antique" vehicle) to be a "used car" and nothing more. Not to mention that it's "modern" and "front wheel drive". But they are still just as "Buick" as anything ever to have a Buick nameplate on it (even with the amount of component sharing now going on at GM). "B-U-I-C-K" is still on the car and it has a VIN with a similar Buick orientation. This is one of those things that you might not see at first in considering the "younger member" subject, what some might call a "side issue", but a side issue to not diminish the great Buicks of the past either.

So, as you might see, getting "younger members" into the BCA is a multi-faceted situation with many twists and turns throughout the history of the BCA. Some of these side issues might well have driven the formation of other Buick model-specific groups (i.e., Riviera, Reatta, GS) over the years, when those particular model lines were "new cars" and not eligible for BCA judged national level shows.

Many thoughts,

NTX5467

[Aaron65]

I'm 29...I drive a '65 Skylark and a '53 Special as often as I can. My wife drives an '00 Century. I too have been working on cars since I was 11 and I would put my mechanical and historical knowledge up against almost anybody. I've loved the look, smell, and sound of old cars, and 40s and 50s Buicks in particular from a young age. I didn't need an older mentor to do this for me. My Dad's a Ford guy who doesn't particularly like old cars (but is very mechanical). As callous as it sounds, I would never join the BCA because of the politics displayed in this thread. I just love driving my old cars and couldn't care less if some judge thinks it's got the correct washers under the fender bolts. My Buicks are nice but could use paint and I'll get to it eventually, but it's no hurry because I like driving them so much. People comment positively on them just the same, and they look just as cool going down the road (where nobody can see the paint chips). Plus, nothing beats the sound of a straight 8! So good luck with your judging, I'll be out driving my old Buicks where "younger" people can see them and maybe think they're cool like I did when I was a kid.