Bill Harrah Collection ====TODAY

[caddyshack]

Very interesting thread. I visited Harrah's in the late 60's and was amased at how many autos were in one location. Fantastic collection, but the best part was the research and parts area. I was so impressed that I too purchased a 1904 Cad touring in 1973. Have had the old car syndrome ever since. This is a little off topic, but John Harrah (dad) and Bill Harrah started a horseless carriage caravan in 1949 that went from L.A. to Reno and back. Floyd Clymer published a story of the event in 1950 and it is full of great pictures and stories. It list all the entries by name and the type of auto participating. I wonder how many of these cars would later end up in Harrah's collection. I would love to see Reno and the present collection. Sounds like it would be a good trip.

[keiser31]

I wonder if there will ever be another Bill Harrah.

[caddyshack]

Keiser,

I am not sure it was all Bill. Dad must have had something to do with it. Namely money. Can you imagine how much money would be needed to duplicate that collection in its hayday, using todays dollars?

[Guest prs519]

Great post and fun hearing the many stories, especially from you elders! Several expressed a great satisfaction in tracking cars which had a museum provenance. My fetish is in hearing the stories of how the cars were originally found and the details of the ensuing purchase. The purchasing agent Bud who is mentioned in this thread by Ivan and others, once co-authored such an article for (if memory serves me) Motor Trend. It told of chasing down Pierce Arrows which had been made into farm tractors, and of fishing one of the original Pierce Silver Arrows out of a river, among other things. I wish someone would write a book about these acquisitions; many are worthy narratives for sure! That article I still have, having cut it out as a boy of about 10 years old back in the sixties!

[1937hd45]

prs519, You need a copy of Dean Batchelor's book, the best on the Harrah Collection IMO. http://www.amazon.com/Harrahs-Automobile-Collection-tribute-automobiles/dp/0917473000 The last time I was at the collection I mentioned I had a better set of rear tires for the Schafer 8 Buick INDY car they had just bought at the Tiny Gould auction. Dean introduced himself to me and gave me a behind the ropes tour of the place. The Type 57SC Bugatti was in pieces at that time, one of the nicest restorations to ever come out of their shops. A few years later it was on the show field at Hershey, and a judge wanted to deduct a lot of points since a magnet would not stick to the body, and fiberglass was not available in the 1930's. Bud or Dean overheard this and asked the team captain if he had ever seen an aluminum body? They pulled out a knife and scraped off the paint under he hood down to bare aluminum, and collected a First Junior that evening. One of my all time favorite AACA Judging stories.

Edited February 4, 2012 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[automuseum]

Harrah's F.R.P. (Finlay Robertson Porter built in Port Jefferson, NY)

In October of 1975 the F.R.P. was sold to Tom Dawson, Purchasing Agent for Bill Harrah. The car is featured in "Harrah's Automobile Collection, One man's tribute to the great automobiles of the World" by Dean Batchelor. The book states: "The car at the top of Harrah's want-list... was the F.R.P." The book goes on to describe in detail Dawson's acquisition of the F.R.P. for Harrah. Later, an issue "Harrahscope" ran a full page feature about the car... "Harrah's Finds 'Most Wanted' Auto; Elusive F.R.P. Touring".

The F.R.P. is also featured in Automobile Quarterly, Volume 31, No. 4, Summer 1993.

With the demise of Bill Harrah and the sale of many of his cars, the F.R.P. went to a Mr. Charles Mallory of Connecticut who later donated it to the Collier Automotive Museum. When the Collier Museum closed, the F.R.P. was donated to the Seal Cove Auto Museum in October of 1994.

The Seal Cove Auto Museum had the pleasure of showing the F.R.P. at the 2011 Amelia Island Concours D'Elegance.

[Ivan Saxton]

In early September 1980 I visited Harrahs, but Bud Catlett was away so I missed meeting him again. Jim Edwards gave me an adhesive patch for the pocket of my boiler suit, which entitled me to step over the ropesbut not touch the cars, though I could lie on the floor to look from underneath. (That is why I had the overalls). When I wanted to look at an engine, Jim opened the bonnet. He took me into storeage areas to see particular cars of interest to me that were not on display. In the restoration shop I clearly remember just three unusual vehicles. the first was a passenger truck with the carefully made engine pulled down for some sort of structural problem. One Bugatti owner told me he thought everyone should own a Bugatti at some time for experience of the idiosyncracy and maintenance difficulties: In this he likened them to Ferrari. I would like to own and drive one of the twin cam Bugattis like some variant of T57. His chassis were elegant and beautifully crafted, but his engines were artistic but not inspired until he had time to study those Millers.

The 1929 supercharged LeMans Stutz, ex Rodney Heath and ex Paul Grist in UK was there undergoing a meticulous authentication and restoration.

The third car in restoration was the FRP. I have a few photos. The 4 cylinder engine was big, and it was big. It would be interesting to know what the performance and handling were like on the road. Mr Harrah used to drive or have cars driven, I understand, probably unless there was a specific reason not to do so. Possibly after his passing it may not have been driven much. It is so different than the T-head Mercers, that Finley Robertson Porter may have been directed down a side road by whoever was backing his work. His real memorial is the T-head Raceabout.

A couple of weeks later I visited Ralph Buckley. He had known where the FRP was, and indicated that he had reservations that big collections were vacuuming up the significant rare cars. Apparently he let slip that the car existed but gave no directions. Harrahs rapidly found out where it was and bought it.

In the far distant past there was a feature on Porter in Antique Automobile. It was effectively the same car as FRP but with different styling. I recall it said that there were a significant number of unsold new cars sold at auction for very little money. I am amazed that there seem to be no survivors.

[mdsbob]

I wonder if there will ever be another Bill Harrah.

Not trying to make a comparison between the two men, but maybe some comparisons to their collections.

I would say that John O'Quinn was well on his way to a comparable collection before his untimely death.

You might even say there were some parallels between the two with neither of them having any provisions in their estate planning for the collection after they were gone.

[Guest Herbie3Rivers]

I would go as far to say maybe Jay Leno. His collection may not match the scale of Harrah's but it makes up for it in quality and diversity.

[Guest Nancy DeWitt]

Last year our museum acquired an interesting car that was once owned by William Harrah and later John O'Quinn. It's an attractive 1913 Argo Model C electric fore-drive limousine. If anyone has photos of the Argo while it was at Harrah's, we love to see them.

I should add that the Alaska DMV titled this car as an "Argg," so we'll be sure to drive it next time Talk Like a Pirate Day rolls around.

[nzcarnerd]

I visited Harrah's collection in July 1978 as part of my road trip around the US. It was just a few days after Bill Harrah died. The museum was continuing as normal, there were vehicles all over the outside yard being prepared for one of their regular sales. It took me three days to see everything, but even then, as someone else commented there were that many important cars that you bypassed several to see another that had caught your eye from further down the hall. I think in terms of sheer numbers the museum was about at its peak at that time. One car I remember because I had read an article about Harrah having not long since acquired at that time was the 1910 Chalmer-Detroit with two engines in line. Whatever happened to it?

[Guest Bill Miller]

[quote Not trying to make a comparison between the two men, but maybe some comparisons to their collections.

I would say that John O'Quinn was well on his way to a comparable collection before his untimely death.

You might even say there were some parallels between the two with neither of them having any provisions in their estate planning for the collection after they were gone.

Herbie3Rivers also mentioned Jay Leno as being on his way to rivaling Harrah's collection. Most people would be surprised to know that there are collectors out there with fabulous collections that NOBODY (even those in the inner circles of the hobby) knows about because they want to remain very private and don't publicize what they have. Within the past year I was with a group which had the privilege of viewing one such private collection near Reno which consisted of probably 300 cars including just about every CCCA Classic imaginable in multiple iterations, brass, nickel and even modern cars too, every one pristine and maintained by salaried specialists in top show condition, and including Pebble Beach Best of Show cars (not to mention class winners). It's not open to the public because the owner doesn't want the publicity and no photos are allowed. There are other such collections all over the world. I live in Kentucky and once visited the home of a man in the northern KY suburbs of Cincinnati who built his house around his car collection ( a mere 50-60 vehicles, all American made, mostly brass-era with a pair of brass Pope-somethings in his entry hall flanking the staircase and a Mercer Raceabout in the master bedroom). He told me he normally didn't invite people to his home because he didn't want them to think he was crazy. There have to be many other folks like these two, just crazy enough.

Bill

[trimacar]

Bill, I've been to the gentleman's house you mention in Cincinnati, an incredible collection at his house, and even more cars stored elsewhere.

At the time he had a Pope on one side of the stairway, an Autocrat (Oldsmobile) speedster on the other. I knew the speedster, as it lived next to my Pierce in New Orleans for years.

You could be in his dining room and look out through glass windows on more brass Oldsmobiles than can possibly exist anywhere else in the world.

Yes, there are collections out there...

[Max BURKE]

G,day to all.

In 1970 an international rally was held here in Australia.Our first.Harrahs sent down a Pierce 66 and a Thomas flyer tourabout .The Thomas was painted creamy white with a white top and all white tyres. It spawned several all white restorations in Australia there after.My memory is that Bud Catlet drove the Pierce and Ralph Dunwoodie the Thomas. Mr Harrah did not come down for the event but did for the next International a few years later. Both tours had a 1930 cut off date. Max Burke. Nulkaba Australia

[mercer09]

The double engined Chalmers was for sale for awhile in Hemmings many moons ago....

Apparently nobody could ever get it to run correctly!

Believe it was being sold in the Philadelphia region-Farmount Park comes to mind....

[Robert G. Smits]

GREAT THREAD; Brings back memories of the good old days. My first trip to the museum was in 78 during spring break. We left Des Moines late on a Friday night and stayed in Omaha. There was Antique Auction on Saturday so we decided to preview it before heading for Reno. I fell in love with a 34 Pontiac which I still have today. After skiing for 5 days we stopped at the Harrah Museum on our way back to Des Moines. The first car I saw was a 1913 Garford (actually a 1912) It was love at first sight. I tried to purchase it at one of the auctions but it was above my pay scale. I was able to privately purchase a unrestored 31 Cad 370A 5P Pheaton however. The Garford ended up in the Lassiter collection and I was finally able to purchase it in 98 or 99. Still my favorite car. I couldn't agree more with James Bartlett that the break up of these collections from time to time is healthy for the hobby. Just think how many people are enjoying ex-Harrah cars today. Just my opinion.

[Guest Herbie3Rivers]

"Just think how many people are enjoying ex-Harrah cars today."

I'm one!

[Layden B]

Max,

I sure remember the Pierce 66 and the Thomas, Bill sent them as a pair on many tours. On a tour on Vancouver Island Canada I was pulling quite well up a long straight hill or so I thought until I looked back and the 66 was passing everyone and coming on strong. As it went by I realized the Thomas was behind being towed on a rope!

[1937hd45]

Robert, Thank you for your Garford story, well worth the wait, now you have a car that was in two of the best collections in the USA. Bill Lassiter, had a great eye for cars, and it was always a pleasure to chat with him at Hershey. Bob

[Guest cben09]

Has anyone ever seen a Garford with a Sleeve Valve engine,,built AROUND 1913,,

The engine was built and patented by Frederick Hartung of Boston area and assigned to

Knight,, The body was in the style of Labrodette [sp],,well almost,,,Wondering for years,,

I met Fred when he was 93 !! He was still driving a 400+ T bird,,,,really,,,Ben

[kbeach]

If someone has the Harrah auction catalogs, could I impose upon you to look and see if there is a 1931 Hudson rumble seat coupe listed? I bought one in the Northern California area about 3 years ago that was said to have been one of two cars that a gentleman from the Sacramento area had purchased at one of the auctions.

Thank you very much.

[1937hd45]

kbeach, is your 1931 Hudson restored or in the same condition it was in at the Harrah auction? Bob

[kbeach]

Hi Bob

Not restored. Have spent the last three years collecting missing parts. Have put in a new clutch, wheel bearing and exhaust system. Cleaned the gas tank & oil pan and rewired. It does run real sweet now but smokes so have not driven it much.

Do you know of the car? It is a nice solid, rust free vehicle so I would love to know its history.

Looks like it was not listed the the Sept. 1986 catalog. If it did come from Harrah's it may have been used as a parts car judging by the parts that were missing.

Ken

[1937hd45]

Ken, I have most of the auction catalogs, I'll see what I can find now that I know I'm looking for an unrestored car. One catalog is from '74-'75, I was out there for the preauction inspection. The notes I made with value estimates is really funny to read today. Bob

[kbeach]

Thanks for your interest Bob.

It has wood wheels and was repainted (before it went to Harrahs judging by the quality of the paint job) maroon body with black fenders and most of the bright work was rechormed so it would look nice in a picture. As the story goes, the fellow in Sacramento who bought it had a couple of teenagers that tried to get it running but never did. The fellow that I bought from had started to strip it since he was going to make a hot rod out of it so I am not sure just when the parts went missing. Some of the missing items include; top of transmisson with shift lever, bracket that mounts hand brake lever to frame, door latches etc.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Ken

[john2dameron]

Ken, the nearest thing I see listed in a Harrah's catalog is a 1930 Hudson Roadster in the 1985 catalog. It is an off-white with tan fenders, side-mount tire cover and trunk mounted on the rear bumper. Here is what it says: "Greater Eight model. 8-cylinder, 80 hp. Older cosmetic restoration (typical museum car) in fair overall condition. Paint and plating fair. Upholstery good but not authentic. Top and tires good. Car runs. There was also a rough looking 1928 roadster in the 1984 catalog that sold for $13,500 and was reported to be in Number 4 condition. There's nothing close in the 1986 catalog. I think the final sale was maybe in 1989.

[Seldenguy]

Ken-- I have two of Harrahs Automobile Collection books one dated 1967 (6th edition) and one dated 1973. They purport to show a complete listing of the collection cars. There are several 1931 Hudsons listed, but none in the coupe configuration. In '67 they list 1 phaeton, 1 club sedan, and two sport roadsters. For '73 the list shows 1 phaeton, and 2 sport roadsters. All of the above cars are listed as Greater Eights. But keep digging, you may turn up something positive. ---Bob

[mrspeedyt]

it would be really cool if the harrah catalogues could be online. i wonder if any of my cars were in the collection. also... what came of the 'jerrari'? i see where first looked like a stock wagoneer and later the ferrari nose was grafted on and the jeep sides smoothed out. the first version looked better in my opinion.

Edited June 5, 2012 by mrspeedyt (see edit history)

[kbeach]

Thanks for all your help in looking. It is a 1931 greater eight coupe so maybe it was not part of the Harrah's collecton as reported. I do remember a lot of cars being sold 15 - 20 years ago listed as an "ex-Harrah car". I think this was an effort to jack up the price (did not work in my case).

Ken

[Guest Nancy DeWitt]

An update on Harrah's former 1919 McFarlan Type 125 Sport Touring (once owned by silent film star Wallace Reid): Al & Paul Murray of Murray Motor Car in Monroe, WA completed the restoration of this car in time for us to show it at the 2012 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance last week. It won Best in Class (A-2 Antiques) and the Ansel Adams Award for Most Desirable Touring Car of Its Era. We will be showing it and our 1918 Biddle Town Car (once owned by Henry Austin Clark) at the Kirkland Concours on September 9 at the new LeMay Museum before shipping them north to Alaska. Stop by and say hello if you are there! Photos by Al Murray

[smithbrother]

NICE.....I don't believe it was a rattle can paint job, or painted on a dirt floor.

Very nice.

Dale in Indy

[Guest Nancy DeWitt]

I should also add that we got the former Harrah's 1921 Heine-Velox out for some exercise last week. That big beast sure turns some heads when it goes lumbering down the street!

[A. Ballard 35R]

Congratulations Nancy on your Pebble Beach win with the McFarlan! You had some interesting competition. Sorry to miss seeing you and saying hello.

[1937hd45]

I've said this before Nancy, whoever picks the cars to add to your collection has a great eye for quality and great looking cars. Bob

[Guest mberberich]

A discussion with a friend reminded me of a long ago moment concerning the FRP. I worked for Harrah's starting in 1980 and thus had free admission to the auto collection. I got to know one of the mechanics there--been over 30 years so I can't remember his name, though I vaguely recall it might have been "Mikey." Anyway, my friend slipped the word to me that if I wanted to see something really neat to be at the collection at a certain time the next day. I was there early and got to watch as the mechanics pulled a vehicle out using a rope, then gathered around it and tinkered with it for a bit. The first time or two they tried to start it, they could not get it to start so they went back in and tinkered a bit more. I don't have a mechanical bone in my body, so I could not even begin to describe what they were doing. But after about 20 minutes and a few false putters the "Forp" as they called it started up and stayed started, whereupon the mechanics whooped it up and started dancing right there in front of and alongside the car. I wsa told it had been decades since the vehicle had run and that they had had to manufacture a key component themselves to get the thing into working condition. I'd to love see any of the articles referred to about this vehicle if anyone might still have a copy they could run off. It was a thrilling moment.

[wws944]

I lived in Reno 1980-1984, so occasionally went over to see the collection. One day there were several 300SL Gullwings in the parking lot, and of course a couple of them inside in the collection too! The Jerrarri was always a favorite. Considering some of the high-end SUVs available today, e.g., Porsches Twin Turbo Cayenne and the like, Harrah was certainly ahead of the times.

Can totally relate to the 'overload' factor. There were so many cars that it was impossible to take it all in. Besides the hundreds of cars on display, there were apparently warehouses full of them. Plus the Wild West Museum, the airplanes, and so on.

Joel Finn was hired by Holiday Inns to cull the herd. In one sense it was a shame to break up the collection. But in another, it helped a lot of cars get preservation and restoration attention that they would not have otherwise had. There were just too many cars for one organization to deal with. Lots of duplicates and near duplicates, etc.

[Guest mberberich]

I can't remember how many acres of cars were on display, but I do recall that at its peak the collection numbered over 1,800 cars, hundreds of which were, as you note, stored in warehouses. I believe over a thousand at a time were on display and there was a constant rotation as he sent cars off to promote the casino. But man, talk about a feast for the eyes and the imagination. Another story was that Harrah had a young up and coming comedian billed as an opening act for a big name star. The young comedian was some guy named Cosby, not yet having hit it big in the national consciousness. So Bill Harrah takes the young Bill Cosby out for a tour of the collection, and Cosby is, of course, awed. Harrah says, "So which did you like the most?" Cosby names a car or two whereupon Harrah sends an assistant off to get a set of keys, hands them over to Bill Cosby, and says, "Here are the keys. This'll let you get around town for the week." (I'd love to hear Cosby's account of this one, first just to corroborate the story, but second just because there is no one in the world who can tell a story like Bill Cosby can!)

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I thought you were telling a story about Jay Leno.

[Guest mberberich]

Ha! As a high limit dealer on the graveyard shift I got to deal to a fair number of big name entertainers. Never got to deal to Leno (or Cosby, for that matter), but I can say that among the famous people that used to play Harrah's you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with a better reputation among all employees than Jay Leno. To a person everyone said Leno was the same in real life as on stage, and that he was deep down nice, sincere, considerate, polite, and funny. (That last one is important on TV but those first four will make you much beloved when interacting with the hat check girl, the hotel staff, and the dealers. Anyone can be nice when the cameras are on; Leno--and Cosby--were nice when the cameras were off.)

[1937hd45]

If you get to tour the Leno garage it is as close as you can ever get to the Harrah collection of the 1970's, but there is far more wall art. I wonder if Jay looked at some of the Harrah cars and years ago and hoped to own a few someday. I know the Crane-Simplex is now his, there may be others. Bill Cosby used to MC the car show that Bill Harrah put on in Reno, and had a very nice early 1930's Aston Martin.