Can you identify the car in this photo in UK about 1906

[EvanLewis]

This photo is from a glass plate negative belonging to my great grandfather Anthony Lewis. They lived in Compton near Winchester in Britain. I have not been able to identify this car using photos on the web. Notice the license plate 122 ! I wonder whether there are old license registration records available in Britain. It is a huge vehicle and the design is typical of 1904 to 1910 approximately, similar to the 7.6 liter Rolls Royce Silver Ghost which had 33 inch wheel rims, but the radiator is very different. It is unusual in that it does not have leaf springs protruding out the front. Most cars of that period did. It appears that the headlights may have been removed as brackets appear to be present.

[cobourgkid]

Evan

My suggestion is that you contact the publishers of pre-war car mag (an online zine). You can check it out at http://www.prewarcar.com/. They often run a mystery column and usually have great success (and fun) identifying photos of oddball European motor cars which have been submitted to them .... something many of us here in North America (with a few exceptions of course) are rather poor at.

Stephen

[EvanLewis]

Thanks for the tip about prewarcar.com. They seem to be interested. We think it may have been in some kind of event such as a race as there is someone sitting in an upstairs window watching it. Also it appears that the headlights have been removed. The steering wheel is on the right, suggesting that it is British. The street has been identified as High Street Winchester, Hants, UK which is near the photographer's home. Other photos are marked 1904 to May 1906. It looks as though car registrations in Britain always had letters first so the 122 must be his entrance number for race or display purposes. There is no insignia and we wonder whether it is a one-off hand made production, or a prototype. There was a car manufacturing plant near by. Thornycroft cars, Hampshire. Could it be one of their models? The Gordon-Bennet Race of 1904 was suggested, but that was in Germany.

[EvanLewis]

I have changed the photo to a bigger version.

[tomchaney]

That looks a lot like a Christie.

[Terry Bond]

Resembles a circa 1903 Napier.

Terry

[EvanLewis]

There is accumulating circumstantial evidence that this is a Thornycroft car, possibly the 45 horsepower version which was modelled on the Rolls Royce Silver Ghost. The Thornycroft factory was less then 20 miles (32 km) from Winchester where this photo was taken.

However there are some similarities to the Napier cars as suggested by Terry Bond. Tom Chaney commented "That looks a lot like a Christie". These suggestions are a big help and any further comments that would help distinguish between these brands would also be greatly appreciated.

Are there links to photos of these cars for comparison? There is a Napier on Prewarcar.com where my photo is being featured today. Thanks to Steven (cobourgkid) for suggesting that site. Eventually I hope to build a web site around this photo, presenting all the evidence. You can view several photos etc at by clicking the raw index lists at

http://www.DrEvanLewis.com/glassplates

...

[Terry Bond]

I ruled out Thornycroft early on because of the radiator shape. My first guest was Panhard but I still think it's closer to Napier than anything else. I wouldn't be surprised to eventually find out it is a Gordon Bennet related picture with someone famous behind the wheel - maybe S.F.Edge himself?

Terry

[EvanLewis]

I have just written a reply to www.prewarcar.com. I had not seen your comment at that stage but will reproduce my remarks here.

Dear Joris,

Thanks to Michael and Mark for their suggestions. I have only found one photo of a Brushmobile - the one you kindly provided. The radiator is roughly similar but has the right-angle corners cut off the radiator core and a single headlight, the mudguard does not have the continuous curved sweep that we see in three photographs of Thornycroft cars - the original 10HP, 14 HP, and 24 HP models. See www.hants.gov.uk/thornycroft, www.thornycroft.org.uk and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornycroft for info and photos. These all have 12 spoked wheels as does my photo. The protruding hub appears to be similar. (see attached comparison of six Thornycroft wheels and the larger image of the wheel from the glass plate).

The simple rectangular radiator core in the photo is also characteristic of the Thornycofts. The other Thornycrofts have a curved radiator tank, but they are also much smaller vehicles. There is only one photo of a 45 HP model available and that is a side view so the width of the radiator cannot be appreciated. This photo has a similar seating arrangement, but has a a sharp angle at the joint between the mudguards and the running board. But then each car had a body built to order at the factory and various styles were offered. The headlights were in the same position on the extended firewall with no lights in front. There is a good collection of Thornycroft photos at www.motoringpicturelibrary.com.

The curved front mudguard and seating arrangement in the photo are similar to the Rolls Royce Silver Ghost 40/50 HP of Nov 1906 -see www.rrab.com/rsg_gb.htm. The engineering specs of this car were almost identical to the Thornycroft 45HP -see www.hants.gov.uk/thornycroft/cars/silverghost.html.

These observations and the fact that the factory was only 18 miles from Winchester make me convinced that this is a Thornycroft. But the evidence is not conclusive and I would appreciate more input to compare with other vehicles. The idea that the unusual plate under the radiator is hiding a front wheel drive gear is intriguing. Is there a photo of a Christy (or is it Christie) car somewhere? I felt that the photo I have of a Napier only has general similarities but there are also differences. It had characteristic air vents on the top and sides of the engine compartment that appear to be absent in this photo. It also had a ten spoked wheel on the front. I would love to hear more discussion about my comments. Do you think I have made a sufficiently convincing case to call it a Thornycroft?

Evan Lewis

See attached photos of Thornycroft wheel hubs.

[EvanLewis]

The photograph is dated 25th September 1903 and it is a

1903 20 HP Humber taking part in the 1,000

Mile Trial, driven by C Evinson. The car had the longest wheelbase (9ft) in the trials.

The clues were that it had no registration plate which means it was pre-1904

as the Motor Car Act of 1903, which was not only for the licensing of

drivers but also for the registration of vehicles, did come into effect

until 1st Jan 1904. The first registration of A1 was secured by Earl

Russell (the elder brother of Bertrand Russell) for his Napier just before

Christmas 1903. The car also had a competition number and being a high number (122) meant that it was part of quite a large race/field which lead the researcher to the 1,000 Mile Trial which had 140 entries in 1903 (104 of which officially started on the first day). Third clue was the clothing which was early 1900s.

It seems the photo may be the car leaving the city after a luncheon

at the Guildhall. The Winchester stage was 133½ miles from Crystal Palace London and return.

Technical details of car are:

Humber, entered by Humber Ltd,

Four cylinder engine

bore and stroke 4½ in by 5 3/4 in,

20 hp

Seats four

Weight 21 cwt

Price 787GBP 10 shillings

Wheelbase 9 feet

The engine size is 365.8 cubic inches or 5994 cc"

Mark Dauber in New Zealand gave me a long list of links to sites interested in Humber!

Automotive World Magazine - The Gateway: Humber World

[EvanLewis]

The photos from the 1903 magazine did not appear on the above entry so I will try again.

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Terry Bond]

Great! Finally got the answer. The forum works its magic once again! I had not considered Humber as I am most familiar with the smaller runabouts but now that a name has been attached to our mystery vehicle it all seems so easy. Once again, that radiator shape is distinctive.

Terry