Please Take This Short Survey (For A College Report) **RESULTS**

[manikmekanik]

1. 1988 Buick Reatta

2. @ 20,000

3. 30 MPG Hyway, 26 MPG commute, 20 Mpg leadfootin'

4. No

5. Maybe a fuel cell powered vehicle.

6. Horsepower

7. Only if it will run on used cooking oil, and run like a Gazelle, or a Reatta.

[Guest JDHolmes]

1. 2003 Dodge 1500 longbed

2. My commute is 50 miles per day or 10,000 per year. However, I drive about 1500 per week.

3. 15 mpg

4. No

5. No

6. I prefer not to increase my cost of ownership per mile

7. No

[Guest AWBE]

1. 2004 Lincoln Towncar

2. Retired but drive about 5,000 miles/year. Half on 250 Mile trips.

3. 15.5 Town-----27.0 Interstate @ 70mph.

4. No way.

5. No, also.

6. Much prefer comfort of large, safe vehicle.

7. Ditto to 6.

[53Bob]

2004 Chrysler Pacifica

45K+

22mpg

No

No

Size too small for the equipment I carry for my job.

Nope, I have purchased my last Detroit money pit. Hope to get 10 years out of the Pacifica and retire. All future purchases will have ventiports and nailhead durability!

[40buick]

1998

dodge

truck

5,000 10,000

15mph

no

yes

[Mrbuick714]

Who you need to contact are the "Tree-Huggers",Also to get a true picture,go to the dealer and find out the battery cost. I have said from the beginning. "Before you buy economy,make sure you can afford it "

[Guest GRANNYS 70 SKYLARK]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Long story short, I'm graduating next month with my MBA.

I'm doing a monster report and presentation on the Hybrid Auto Industry (it was the only way I could do something about cars ).

Please reply to this thread, so I can have all the responses in one place.

Thanks!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1. What is your current daily driven car?

Year 2005

Make Dodge

Model Dakota 4X2

2. How many miles do you commute per year? Retired

<5,000

5,000-10,000

10,000-15,000

15,000-20,000

25,000+

3. What MPG do you currently get in your daily driver? 18-24

4. Have you ever owned a hybrid vehicle? No

5. If you answered NO for question 4, do you plan on purchasing a hybrid in the future? No

6. If you answered NO for questions 4 and 5, please state the reason. Not cost efficient yet.

7. If you answered NO for questions 4 and 5, would you be willing to purchase a diesel with equivalent gas mileage rather than a hybrid? </div></div> Nope

[Mrbuick714]

As a courtesy to all who participated.it would be nice to recap the results,not only what the "Gearheads" replied ,but also what the general public had to say.T he press was overly kind to these cars earlier,but that is waning.

[96roadmaster]

Thank you all for your replies. I am throwing all the numbers together into an Excel spreadsheet. Please be patient as I have over 140 replies between the handful of clubs I posted this on.

Once again, thank you all for your time and efforts,

Roupin

[Mrbuick714]

You should consider resale. One here has been in the want ads for five weeks, and almost no replies. The same dealer had a Buick which sold in hours!

[Electra_Wagon]

1. 2004 Toyota 4Runner

2. 25,000+

3. 19 MPG

4. No.

5. I would consider a Hybrid

6. NA

7. I would consider a Diesel

Good luck on your MBA. I am finishing my first year right now. Exams and papers due NOW!!!

[Mrbuick714]

The hybrid here was advertized for four weeks with almost no response. It was "dumped"at auction at a poor price. The owner got two hybrids for one price his first and his last !

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The hybrid here was advertized for four weeks with almost no response. It was "dumped"at auction at a poor price. The owner got two hybrids for one price his first and his last ! </div></div>

I have a black (traditionally the lowest resale value color) 2005 Prius with 11,000 miles on it. I live in Cincinnati (where both "import" and hybrid demand is just about the lowest in the country). I don't know what part of the country you're in or what "hybrid" you're talking about, but here according to Edmunds.com I could sell the Prius <span style="font-weight: bold">for [color:\\"green\\"]$800 more than I paid for it last year [color:\\"blue\\"]new</span>. If there's a seriously depreciating hybrid out there it's not showing up in <span style="font-weight: bold">any</span> of the value guides.

Besides all that, there is value in not screwing up my kid's world for my own egotistical reasons. If money is the only measure you use for evaluating things I'm sorry for you.

Life moves on. Progress is good.

[96roadmaster]

OK, here goes. I'm not even sure how to present the data on the forum (numbers everywhere!), so I'll just break it down. If there is any specific information you would want me to post, please ask.

I ran the survey through a bunch of online car clubs I'm on, so here is the gearhead point of view on hybrids.

4% actually own hybrids.

72% will NEVER touch a hybrid. 39% of these people said it is due to looks/performance. 11% said they prefer feeling safe in larger cars. 32% said they are concerned about long term costs/savings. 17% said they will never sacrifice performance for economy. (Note some people gave more than 1 reason).

67% are definitely interested in Diesel when/if it can burn clean and match the MPG of the hybrids.

The average miles commuted each year fall in the 15,000-20,000 category.

Now for the meat of my report, hybrids don't deliver the claimed MPG in real world driving conditions. Considering the available rebates and gas mileage, it takes 4 years to break even on a Prius Hybrid (not considering the battery costs 7 years down the road), and a WHOPPING 22 years to recover the extra hybrid premium on a Lexus RX400h.

Hybrid sales have recently slumped, and dealers are offering many incentives to buyers. My local Toyota dealer was overeager to sell me a Prius, and started offering discounts before I even asked. Honda Accord Hybrids are now officially on a on-order basis, since they spend about 90 days on the dealer lots before they are sold. Ford is offering 0% financing and employee prices on the Excape Hybrid, and they still had about a dozen on the lot when I stopped by.

I didn't include any safety concerns in my paper afterall, since it was going to get very messy. But from the things I've found...

Hybrid cars are supposed to be safe in controlled environment conditions. They claim there is no risk of electric shock. Since when is the real world a controleed environment? I think my 1996 Buick Roadmaster is a safe car. Buick and the DOT also thought the same thing. Has anyone ever died in a car accident while driving a 1996 Buick Roadmaster? Yes, because the real world is not a controlled environment.

That said, so does the Prius carry a risk to its passengers? The main battery cable runs from the front to the back of the car under the driver's seat, 18 inches into the doorsill. I think that's mighty close, since all it would take is a Chevy Tahoe to embed itseld 18 inches into the side of a Prius. The electrical system is supposed to cut off to prevent any shock to its passengers. But what if it doesn't work? That would send 700 volts straight to its passengers. BMW has the same technology on its cars where the battery cuts off in severe accidents. Did a newer model BMW ever go up in flames because of an electrical fire after an accident? Yes.

Since we know that electrical currents have magnetic fields, how does that affect the driver and passengers of hybrid cars? There are no tests or reports on this issue, but it will be addressed in the future. It is advisable not to stand in front of our washing machines and dishwashers when they are working. How about sitting on something that has 3 times as much electrical power?

As for the people who responded that they will consider a diesel when it matches the MPG of a hybrid, your car has arrived. The Toyota Camry hybrid offers a real world return of 33MPG, while a Volkswagen Jetta Diesel gets 36MPG. The EPA estimates of the hybrids are incorrect and overstated, so they stand about 20% higher than what they can actually return. The MPG test results are in the current issue of Car and Driver.

Thank you all for your time and information. This has been an enjoyable project for me, and a learning experience as well.

[Reatta Man]

Roadmaster,

You (and the survey respondents) have confirmed what many auto enthusiast sites and consumer publications have picked up on; that hybrids are NOT the end-all be-all some people claim they are, especially when factoring in the battery cost and safety concerns.

It's amazing that some people, including an ultra-small minority on this forum, still cling to the hybrid myth in a very rabid, in-your-face sort of way, going so far as to say we are all idiots if we don't agree with that erroneous point of view.

Yet, in other parts of the forum, many Buick owners are showing high 20's to low 30 MPG figures for their FULL-SIZE cars on the highway.

To me, it seems like the best real-world solution that is likely to be appealing to large car owners AND have a good chance of coming to market in the next few years is a large car capable of running on E85 fuel while still getting in the mid-20s mileage even after the loss in mileage and power is factored in for the mostly alcohol fuel. We will have the safety and comfort of a large affordable car while we lower our dependence on oil from countries that hate us just because we are Americans.

Thanks for the survey.

Joe

[Dave@Moon]

I love it. People will believe what ever they want, data means nothing.

Hybrid sales have "slumped" to 100% more than they were in January 2005, and have been limited only by production capacity since last summer, data which may be presented in this form:

My Prius is rated at 51 mpg highway. Up and back to the Indy time trials today (now that the car is well broken in) got me 50.7 mpg @ 75 mph. I'm not disappointed myself.

Hybrids are the fastest production models of the Escape, Accord, Highlander, RX400 and probably the Camry (which explains why some of them aren't the gas misers they could be), yet hybrid owners are sacrificing performance. Gee.

The next major hybrid to be released by GM in 2007 will be full hybrid versions of the Yukon and Tahoe (not the same as the current partial hybrid pickups), a couple of terrible "small cars" to be caught in.

The Prius has a better accident survivability rating than most SUVs and <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> other mid-size car. What a death trap!

The Toyota Camry hybrid is rated at 43 mpg city/38 mpg highway by the EPA. Even granting the over-emphasis of most EPA hybrid estimates 33 mpg is a leadfoot number at best.

Not one Toyota hybrid battery has gone less than a quarter million miles and needed replacement. That must be a rough 7 years!

BTW--The Insight is being canceled (after 10 years) to make way for a hybrid version of the Fit, which will be a true 60 mpg 4 passenger car. Also the 4 year break even for the Prius you mention is about right, <span style="font-style: italic">if gas never goes up again!</span> What are the chances <span style="font-weight: bold">that</span> would happen?

<span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"green\\"]Finally, money is not why I bought my Prius, or why almost anyone does. There are bigger considerations to the burnt fuel we spew into our own skies everyday. <span style="font-style: italic">If</span> I'm paying more for my Prius (a <span style="font-style: italic">HUGE "if"</span> at this point), that's why. And it's well more than worth it.</span>

This is indeed a learning experience. I wonder what a bunch of conservative 60 year old men would have to say about automatic transmissions in 1940 (when <span style="font-style: italic">they</span> were 2% of the market)?

Times never change.

[96roadmaster]

Dave, that chart is skewed. The only reason the hybrid sales are up on that chart is because there are more hybrid models offered now. If you compare the same car over the past year, yes, sales have slumped. If you would like, I can insert the charts and references from my paper.

Your Prius is a freak to return those miles. Btw, owners have reported a discrepancy between the mpg the car indicates on the dash and the actual mpg it is getting.

The only "muscle" hybrids that are faster than their gas counterparts are the Lexus RX400h, Toyota Highlander (same platform) and Honda Accord. You will note that these hybrids only return marginally better MPG's than their gas counterparts.

The Camry hybrid is a pig, and only returns 33mpg. That's less than a Diesel VW.

The battery replacement is not dependant on mileage, rather on age. At the 7th year mark (some cars are 5 years), the batteries get to come out. They can only be replaced by the dealer at their standard hourly rates.

Please understand that I am not bashing the hybrids. I'm only reporting the information I found. I have all references to my claims.

[Rawja]

I gotta weigh in on this one....

I think a great deal of the value of a hybrid is based upon geography and the local driving conditions therin. Here in the metro NYC area Hybrids are definately "hot" and our driving conditions make the most of hybrids' advantages. I know 2 people who commute with Toyota Prius(s) and both report getting over 50 MPG in our usual bumper to bumper driving conditions.

I run 8 vehicles and on any given day 7 of them are in use. As you can imagine the ever-escalating cost of gasoline is having a major impact on me.

1 vehicle is a full-sized van, and not a candidate for substitution with a Hybrid.

1 Vehicle is a 3800-equipped Pontiac Trans Sport, 95% of the time used to commute and bang around the city with the occaisional carrage of a large load. Real world MPG under our local driving conditions: 15 MPG with a 105 mile round trip commute.

1 vehicle is an '03 PT Cruiser GT easily replaced with a Prius with no loss of functionality. Real world MPG under our local driving conditions: 17 MPG with a 87 mile round trip commute. (this car requires premium BTW)

1 vehicle is an 03 S10 Pick-up, which 99% of the time carries nothing but the driver to and from work at a remote jobsite. Real world MPG under our local driving conditions: 17 MPG with a 110 mile round trip commute. (unlike the other vehicles in my fleet, this vehicle does not travel to Manhattan so its mileage is probably better than what it would get if it was doing our "standard" commute)

Another is a '97 Jeep Cherokee almost all of its use is for commuting and bouncing from job to job in Manhattan and given its minimal cargo carrying capacity it could be replaced with a Prius, but given its short commute it wouldn't pay. Real world MPG under our local driving conditions: 15 MPG with a 28 mile round trip commute.

My sister-in-law drives an '01 Dodge Stratus non-commuting and gets 20-22 MPG.

As for me, I've been commuting in my Buick Reatta which at a weight of 3,400 Lbs. is the equivelant to the proverbial "full sized 3800" car y'all keep referring to. Yes, I can get 27-30 MPG on steady-state cruise at 70 MPH. The reality is however that if I don't pay attention to driving technique I get around 14-16 MPG commuting, 18-20 MPG if I leave the gas mileage screen up and really feather it on the gas and minimise braking. My commute is only 60 miles round trip.

I could (and would if business was better) replace most the vehicles I'm running with Prius or Insight hybrids with little to no loss in functionality, and with a signifigant savings in fuel costs.

My fuel bill for April: $ 2,206.36

As I mentioned before I know a number of Prius drivers routinely getting 50 MPG under our "normal" driving conditions here. I've been monitoring used Honda Insight ads on Autotrader and ebay and oftentimes they show the lifetime MPG readout as part of the ad and I've yet to see one where the MPG was below 40, I've seen many with over 50MPG as their lifetime average.

If I lived in Nebraska (or somesuch) hybrids wouldn't make nearly as much sense. But at least in my neck of the woods the economics do indeed work.

[Rawja]

Roadmaster-

I'm wondering, did you by any chance talk to the people over at www.insightcentral.net ? I've lurked over there for a long time and there are definately some serious gearheads over there that are fixated on maximizing gas mileage.

[Guest sintid58]

My wife does not watch how she drives her Park Avenue at all. If I drive if for a week and watch it I can improve her mileage by a minimum of 1.5 MPG, she has no concept of trying to time the car for stop lights and easing away from a light is a foreign concept. I do not just trust the trip computer and check it manually every time I fill the car, she drives 34 miles round trip daily and it is combined city and hwy, she consistantly averages 23.5 MPG. Yes you can mess with the numbers, I can say I get 36 MPG on the highway with this car because last Saturday we drove to Omaha to pick up my daughter from the airport. We stopped in Sioux City IA and filled with gas, from there to Omaha the computer said we got 36 MPG, we had a 20 MPH tail wind and it is as flat as a pancake. Coming home our mileage dropped to 27 average pushing the headwind, I did fill when we got home, we averaged 27.1 MPG. If you sit down with a calculator and put the numbers to it, I can not afford to buy a new car that gets 50 MPG. The gas mileage will never pay for that car, espescially when you can buy very good used Park Avenue's and Le Sabre's for less that 6 or 7,000 dollars. If I drive 18000 miles per year with my Park Avenue at $3 per gallon it costs me $2298 for gas. If I buy a Hybrid and get 50 MPG it will cost me 1080 for gas. That is $1218 per year savings or $101.50 per month. If I buy a used Park Avenue with 80,000 miles on it for $7000 and drive it for five years and it is worth nothing when I am done it will cost me (without maintence) $116.66 per month to own not counting gas, if I add the extra cost for gas over what I would get with the hybred the car costs me 218.16 per month for five years. If I pay $33,000 for a new hybrid, keep it five years, at the end of that time it is worth $10,000 (which I doubt very much) that car will cost me over five years (with no maintenance) $383 per month to own. I just lost $164 per month or $9840 over five years. I know that I may have more maintenance costs with my older car but most of that cost will be made up by lower insurance costs because I am driving an older car that has lower replacement costs and I most likely will not have to carry full coverage. There is no interest figured in either and if you are borrowing most of the money to buy either car it will cost you a lot more than $33,000 in car payments over 5 years. Even if you borrow all the money for the $7000 car you will have a couple years without any payments. I also am pretty sure that for $9840 in five years I could pretty much totally rebuild any Park Avenue or Le Sabre and then it would be a wash. That is I believe what most of us old morons are talking about.

[Guest sintid58]

I did figure just a little bit more. If I pay $200 more per month for my Hybrid that my Park Avenue I can finally justify the additional cost when gas hits $6 per gallon. Of course by then I will have been walking or riding a horse for a couple years.

[Rawja]

I predicated my observations on my local driving conditions, and probably wouldn't consider a hybrid if I lived in South Dakota, and you couldnt duplicate our congestion there even if you tried.

As I stated, our local traffic conditions ideally suited to hybrid's strong suits.

Take my commute for example:

Believe it or not I live a great deal closer to the city than most of the people coming in and out via automobile.

29.45 miles one way.

Friday's trip home: 2 hours 15 minutes (it rained).

This kind of congestion applies to the over 1 million commuter vehicles entering and leaving Manhattan everyday, in addition to the similar congestion levels that comuters to and among the outer boroughs, Nassau, Westchester, and Jersey necessarily share in.

You are wrong on hybrid depreciation, believe me I've been monitoring pricing on these for over a year and a half.

A five year old Honda Insight with 60,000 miles (12K/Yr.) is worth around 60% of its original sticker.

The oldest current-generation Prius (2004) with 24,000 miles (12K/Yr.) is worth almost 80% of its original sticker.

With my gas consumption/gas prices I'm within spitting distance of the improved mileage covering the monthly car payment if I purchase used.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, that chart is skewed. The only reason the hybrid sales are up on that chart is because there are more hybrid models offered now. If you compare the same car over the past year, yes, sales have slumped. If you would like, I can insert the charts and references from my paper.</div></div>

Better?

(The decline since last August is less than the overall sales decline of late, and likely more reflective of winter's effect on sales than anything else.)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Your Prius is a freak to return those miles. Btw, owners have reported a discrepancy between the mpg the car indicates on the dash and the actual mpg it is getting. </div></div>

No freak. Typical actually. City mileage is the one that is usually lower than the EPA estimate. I usually get around 48 mpg city, 45 if I use the a/c. I've seen leadfoot write-ups from people who've beaten the cars as low as 36 mpg, however. (BTW--The dash monitor on my car generally under-estimates by 1-2 mpg.)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Camry hybrid is a pig, and only returns 33mpg. </div></div>

http://www.hybridcars.com/camry.html

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/buyingahybridcar/p/camryhybrid.htm

http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/ID/25173/article_id_int/1260

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

Need any more?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The battery replacement is not dependant on mileage, rather on age. At the 7th year mark (some cars are 5 years), the batteries get to come out. They can only be replaced by the dealer at their standard hourly rates.</div></div>

http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html :

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

[color:\\"green\\"]The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. [color:\\"blue\\"] We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle.[color:\\"green\\"] We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. [color:\\"red\\"]Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear. </span> </div></div>

see also: Business Week: The Top Ten Hybrid Myths

BTW--good used battery packs with at least 100,000 miles of remaining expected lifetime for Gen 1 Priuses are currently selling for $500-$1000, in the rare case that someone needs one due to <span style="font-weight: bold">mileage</span> or physical damage. The $200 bounty Toyota pays for the old one to recycle the contents helps with much of that. There also isn't a single web site listing to be found on Yahoo or Google describing hybrid car batteries wearing as a matter of age, or any reference to a 5- or 7- year lifetime. If it were true then every single 2000 Prius out there would be running with an "expired" battery, as <span style="font-weight: bold">not one has ever been replaced</span> (see above). It's a lie.

------

People can back up misconceptions with misconceptions and convince themselves of anything. This antique hobby was started in part as an homage to people who laughed off the incorrect assumptions of the "<span style="font-style: italic">Buy a horse!</span>" crowd and brought forth the America we know. I wish <span style="font-style: italic">we</span> had <span style="font-style: italic">their</span> guts.

Hiding from the future won't change it. Effiency will be the watch-word of the coming generation of road-going vehicles, be they hydrogen/bio-fuel/syn-fuel/or any other primary energy source. <span style="font-weight: bold">SOON they will ALL be what we today call "hybrids".</span> The increasing expense of operation will dictate that this technology be used just as much as effiency dictated the use of the vacuum advance, four-stroke engine, self-energizing brakes, radial tires, etc., etc., etc. Every single one of them had groups of old codgers sitting around and spitting as they decried the future potential of these new-fangled contraptions. Why should today be any different?

[Guest sintid58]

To be honest with you if I worked in a city like New York and espescially if I was as worried about the environment as you say you are I would be riding mass transit and not driving any car. Just think of the money and the ozone and noxious gases that would save. Also right now maybe you can get that much for a 5 year old car I guess I don't know but in time that will not be the case because just like any other new technology the glow will pass on this too. I was using some numbers tilted a little in your favor anyway. If you took care of a $7000 Le Sabre that starts with 80,000 miles, it would hardly be worth nothing at the end of 5 years. If it runs good and looks good even cars like this with 200,000 miles on them will bring $1,500.

[carbking]

1 - 1996 Ford Aerostar 4.0 4x4

2 - <5000 commute, about 25,000 total

3 - Hwy about 24, city about 16

4 - No

5 - No

6 - Do not believe the hype

7 - No! Will bicycle first!

Congratulations on your graduation!!!

Jon.

[96roadmaster]

Rawja, I agree. Heavy traffic is obviously better for a hybrid vehicle since it decreases the idle time of the gasoline engine. Those who sit in traffic all day long are better able to realize the MPG gains. I didn't talk to the people at InsightWorld, but I did browse their forum and also a Prius forum as well (don't remember the site offhand).

Dave, it's interesting to note the increased sales between January 2005 and January 2006. What was your source on those figures?

Here is the chart we have:

Also I found a number of articles stating the declining sales of the hybrids. These sources included Motor Trend, MSNBC, and I think Bloomberg. They reasoned that the hybrid sales have started declining because consumers have realized these cars don't return the stated MPG, and are now calculating their breakeven points.

With a marketing background, we also concluded that many of the early purchasers of hybrids were the First Movers, who consist of the type of people who embrace new items on the market. This further justifies the $10k price markup when gas prices were just $2.20 a gallon.

When I said the Camry was a pig, I meant that it doesn't return the MPG that Toyota advertises with most people's driving habits. I can sit in traffic for 8 hours a day and obviously it will work great for me, but when driven 50/50 on the freeway and surface streets, it's just not returning the numbers. However, that argument is like beating a dead horse, since everybody's driving styles may vary.

I wouldn't go as far as calling any information a lie. I've referenced all my information in my paper and have sources for everything. I could also argue back and forth about your sources, but choose not to go that far.

According to the information I pulled, the batteries do indeed need to be pulled out at a recommended 7 years. Sure the car will keep on running with an older battery, just not as long. The gasoline engine will kick in more frequently. The issue of used batteries are situational, and does nothing for my report, which is focused on the hybrid industry as a whole.

As you can see in my first post with the results, I said the hybrid is a great technology, but I wouldn't jump into a hybrid car just yet. I know it's the way of the future, and all the automakers have hybrid plans in their near future (Chevrolet Tahoe is a good example). Lexus is now pushing to produce its "muscle" hybrids, whereas the Toyota lineup is focusing on increased MPG. Nissan is about to enter the market with the Altima hybrid, Ford has plans to release a hybrid version of the Five hundred (and a few other cars), GM is supposed to have a 2007 Tahoe and Yukon hybrid... You get the idea. Everyone is embracing the technology.

Good luck with your Prius. I understand how your driving pattern and habits make the Prius work for you, since it is returning remarkable MPG's. But I think I'll stick to my Buick for now. Hey, I AM supporting the General

[Dave@Moon]

Prius sales are off about 10% overall in 2006 over 2005 (not 23%--which was for just one month), but it's not what you think. It's an embarrassment of riches that's causing the problem for Toyota.

Hybrid Camrys are built on the same production line as the Prius in Japan (there are no U.S. built Priuses yet, read on for news on that front). This has cut Prius production capacity world wide. Currently there is a 5 day supply of Priuses nationwide. Anything under 30 days is considered "short supply". Waiting times for delivery are actually longer than ever, with waits up to 9 months necessary in some markets. This story is the most comprehensive write up I could find on the web regarding the current situation.

All of this is why I could sell my car at a profit tomorrow. I won't!

(BTW--The sales charts I used were both from the Green Car Congress. If you read the charts they match your figures, they just present the data in a more comprehensive manner.)

There was a short story on CNN this morning profiling Toyota's search for a new plant site in the U.S. to be dedicated to Prius production, beginning with the introduction of the third generation car in two years. I haven't been able to find an online reference to it as yet.

As far as imparting motives on Prius buyers (or the lack thereof), that's dangerous ground. My Prius is the first new car I've ever owned that has had so much as an automatic transmission. I'm hardly a "First Mover". Hybrid cars address concerns that go far beyond, and most people would consider far more important than, the automotive market or hobby.

This is likely the biggest change in automobiles since automatic transmissions opened up driving to millions. Exploring it as if it were a new kind of all-wheel drive system or some other appealing but ultimately frivolous option won't make sense of what's going on.

[Rawja]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To be honest with you if I worked in a city like New York and espescially if I was as worried about the environment as you say you are I would be riding mass transit and not driving any car. Just think of the money and the ozone and noxious gases that would save. </div></div>

I have to have multidirectional mobility at all times given the pinball-action and odd schedule of my workday.

I think mass transit is a great idea (for everybody else). <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think you're conflating the positions of Dave and myself.

While I do have concern for the environment, and don't doubt the scientific consensus on global warming, I will never ever give up my personal mobility to ride with the proletariat on the subway.

I drove a car to work in Manhattan long before I could afford it and will probably continue long after I can no longer afford to, but hey I'm a "car guy".

That said, anything I can do to minimize the wastefulness and cost of my peculiar affection for sitting in traffic alone rather than whisking along jammed in a steel tube with rude strangers, I'm up for.

The Prius, Insight and the new Civic hybrids are simply cool cars, that they get astonishingly good gas mileage is but one of their charms for me.

Where else can you get digital dash in a new car? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[96roadmaster]

Dave, your car is no doubt a great choice for yourself. I'm not here to argue whether or not it's a money-saver with the MPG you are getting. Your driving habits seem to be optimized at increasing your savings. It also sounds like the Prius is a popular car in your neck of the woods.

While doing the report, I talked to a friend of mine who works at a Toyota dealership in New Jersey. He has trouble keeping them on the lot and has a few month waiting list at all times. That contrasts sharply with the cars here in California. The Toyota dealer near my house has been having a hard time selling the hybrids they have on the lot. In fact, the same 3 Prius' that were sitting there 2 weeks ago are still there. There are NO markups or extra costs of the sort.

Rawja, with the ever increasing price of gas, I think people are going to start looking at hybrid cars all over again. There is news now that Panasonic is looking to manufacture the batteries for the Prius, which will drop the price down to $3k for the new battery. Their target price is $1k.

I will be interested to drive the upcoming Lexus LS600h, just out of personal curiosity. I wonder if they were able to overcome the artificial feel of the steering and brakes that were reported by many owners of the RX400h.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Toyota dealer near my house has been having a hard time selling the hybrids they have on the lot. In fact, the same 3 Prius' that were sitting there 2 weeks ago are still there. There are NO markups or extra costs of the sort. </div></div>

This is a listing of used Priuses in the Los Angeles area on Yahoo. Ther are currently 98 for sale within 50 miles of downtown L.A. There isn't one Generation 2 car selling for less than new list ($21-$24K). Most are at least offered at a $3000-4000 markup over new list, whether they have 9000 miles or 49,000. Less than 10% of them are selling below $20,000 regardless of year/mileage. To get down to a car selling for $10K you need to go to a Gen 1 car with 176,000 miles.

If you buy those "new" "no markup" Priuses at your local dealer you could re-sell them and make almost 20% on your money in a week. What are the chances your dealer's employees wouldn't know that? I think it's a lot more likely that what you're looking at are the three most overpriced used Priuses in L.A., massively over-priced dealer markups you have to get behind a desk to discover, or the salesmen's cars (dealer employees are buying them up like mad--often for resale after 1 year when they can buy another one). Unless it's the third case I'd avoid that dealer like the plague!

L.A. is just about the peak of Prius demand (the Bay Area might be #1, it's close). Waiting periods reported on priuschat.com from that area range from 6 months to a little over a year. (This area [Cincinnati] is just about the lowest demand area in the U.S. Waits here were measured in weeks until this spring.) There's no way unclaimed new ones are sitting around in L.A.

Also my mileage is really fairly typical. On occasion I read of some that are higher (there's a thread on Priuschat about a guy who averaged 51.8 over 10.000 miles), but most are in the 45-48 mpg range. Hybrids are much more sensitive to driving style than old-fashioned cars (<span style="font-style: italic">Get used to that one!</span> ), and people who beat their cars don't get good mpg results because they're never in the range where the hybrid system is most effective (low- to mid-throttle). Even then your talking about 40+ mpg city mileage in a mid-size family car!

[96roadmaster]

I'd like to give that Prius a shot. I bet I can undercut anyone's MPG's. If I can get 10.4 MPG in the 96 Roadmaster averaged over the past 3000 miles, I think I can find a way to hit an all time low in the Prius as well. Of course, that's assuming the car would live long enough to report back

The dealer I'm talking about with the 3 Prius's on the lot advertised the cars with a $3k markup, but as soon as I sat down they knocked it down to sticker. I was even surprised at how desperate they were to get me into a car. I called my friend in NJ immediately after and he confirmed that his dealership was still on a waiting list. I could have kept haggling, but in the interest of time I took off since I still had to visit Honda and Ford.

[Mrbuick714]

A very large newspaper ran the ad for SIX weekends to try to sell his 05 low mileage hybrid and got a total of TWO phone calls. It was literally dumped at auction at a disappointing price. (P S,there is another at auction this week)