Packard Firsts???

[R W Burgess]

Not trying to have a "Rants and Raves" in the General Forum, <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> but I thought this Packard Thread, which has become 4 pages long(make that 5 now), makes a nice list of interesting firsts! What? Was the Packard Motor company that far ahead of everyone else?

The post below is credited to 55PackardGuy;

Well, the jury has been out for some time, but I don't know how much deliberation has been going on.

I went through this thread and made some notes on what readers have said about items that should be removed from the "Packard Firsts" list, what should be modified, and what should be added.

Please remember this is presented for discussion only, and I am NOT maintaining that I have any sort of final word. I am basing the changes on my best efforts at understanding what others have offered on the thread. If there was unresolved debate about items, I will note that. If I found NO debate, I will note that. As a GROUP, we may be able to construct a more satisfying list.

There were objections to the structure of the list, and the fact that some of the items have no dates. Dates have been supplied for some of these and if they are verifiable I think they should remain, otherwise I would eliminate them.

Originally, I said that if just half the items on the PAC list were true and verifiable, it would still be an impressive list. I think it may have met that test, especially if some of the additions are included.

Here is the list as originally posted (from the PAC website with no modifications except to eliminate redundancies such as starting each entry with "First...") suggested modifications and deletions from the discussion, if any, noted below each entry:

1. ?H? pattern selective gear shift (1899)

Modify to 1900 because of first appearance on model "B" per Packard53

2. Steering wheel (1901)

Modify to First steering wheel offered on U.S. vehicle? (no other U.S. cars cited)

3. Automatic spark advance (1899)

Not challenged.

4. Rumble seat (1908)

Out. Too difficult to define exactly.

5. Hand brake left of driver (1915)

Not challenged

6. First twelve cylinder engine in U.S. (1915)

Out. Widely debated.

7. Aluminum piston automobile engine (1915)

Out. Widely debated.

8. Hypoid differential (1925)

Not challenged.

9. Hydraulic shock absorbers (1926)

Challenged by Silverghost (RR was first? 1925) Modify to first in U.S.?

10. Backup lights (1927)

Not challenged.

11. Pressurized cooling system (1933)

Modify to 1938 per Lake Powell. Not determined if that constitutes a "first."

12. Oil temperature regulator (1833)

Not challenged.

13. Full flow oil filter (1933)

Not challenged.

14. Central automatic chassis lubricator (1933)

Out per K8096 (Stutz was first?)

15. Standard automatic radiator shutters (1933)

Out per Silverghost (RR first? 1926) Others indicated probably not first in U.S.

16. ?Ride control? for shock absorbers (1933)

Not challenged.

17. Self cleaning full flow oil filter (1934)

Not challenged.

18. Power hydraulic brakes (1936)

Debated, but earlier "power" brakes listed are mechanical not hydraulic. Change to Power vacuum assisted hydraulic brakes?

19. Aluminum crankcase

Not challenged.

20. Air conditioning (1939)

Corroborated by Jack Harlin (dealership experience), possibly modify to 1940 per Eric (http://inventors. about.com) and Craig, History Channel, citing 1940 Chicago Auto Show. Disputed by some other lists.

21. Sealed beam headlights (1939)

Out per Bill-W although he only cites they were "industry standard" by 1940, so Packard may have beaten the general intro by a year.

22. Padded dash (1939)

Not challenged.

23. Pleated upholstery (1939)

Not challenged.

24. Power windows (1940)

Not specifically challenged, but debated.

25. All steel station wagon (1948)

Out per bernardi and others (1949 Plymouth was first?)

26. Reverse rear window (1953)

Not challenged.

27. Torsion bar suspension (1955)

Modify to First fully interconnected 4-wheel torsion bar system.

28. Electric load leveler (1955)

May be modified to first in U.S.?

The following did not provide dates. Those supplied have been added.

29. Thermostatically controlled water circulation

30. Accelerator pedal joined with hand throttle

31. First patent on interchangeable wheels

32. Ribbed jacket water-cooled cylinders

33. First patent on radiator with top and bottom reservoirs with tubes

34. First U.S. application of ?trunnion block?

35. Glove compartment in instrument panel

36. Folding interior sun visors

37. Pump aided vacuum windshield wipers (1955)

38. Lateral stabilizer

39. Under fender cooling tunnels

40. Electric overdrive

41. Standard front and rear bumpers

42. Limited slip differential (1956)

43. Fiberglass body

44. Only automobile with complete torsion bar suspension (already listed)

45. First diesel aircraft (not automotive)

These additions have been suggested:

1. First power antenna, 1952(?)

from Kev,, 1954 Packard and Packard Clipper "Fact Book"

corroborated by Randy Berger, 1952 Mayfair personal experience

2. First power steering linkage directly acting on steering geometry (frame mounted), 1953(?)

from Guy, Kimes, pg 567-568

3. First to offer standard tubeless tires, 1954

from Guy, Kimes pg 572

4. First to offer signal-seeking radio (Delco "Wonderbar"), 1955(?)

from Brian

5. First direct drive (locking) torque converter, 1955

from Brian

6. First use of pushbutton automatic transmission, 1956

from Brian

7. First reversible seat cushions, 1956

from Guy, Brian

Not sure on some of the dates for these, and of course there could be further discussion before "officially" including them, and they may be in need of modification like "first in U.S."

HAVE AT IT! KEEP IT CLEAN!!

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But we may end up with quite a "seriously" improved list of "Packard Firsts"

--------------------

Guy Strauss

[K8096]

#1 at the bottom "First power antenna" Are they talking vacume or electric? I know for a fact that 1941 Cadillac had a vacume antenna.

#3 at bottom, I know Cadillac had Wonderbar radio in 1955 too (I owned one) 1954 & 1953 Cadillac may have had that too, not sure.

#43 Fiberglass body? What year are they referring to? I'm thinking Corvette 1953.

#23 pleated upholstery, are they referring to a mass produced car only? Many limited production cars of the 20's & early 30's had pleated seats.

#18 Stutz had power vacuum assisted hydrraulic brakes in 1929, as did Duesenberg.

#14, Stutz had a central chassis lube system in 1926, other luxury cars may have too, I'm sure Rolls did.

[Guest my3buicks]

Buick had a Wonderbar radio in 1953, I would assume Cadillac did also

[Guest bkazmer]

On the Fiberglas body, a Chevy prototype, the Kaiser Darrin and the few Packard Panthers I believe all predate the Corvette. The Kaiser Darrin and Corvette are the only ones I'd call real production.

[Guest bkazmer]

Chrysler and Desoto had pushbutton automatics in 56 also. Not sure who was first to market.

[West Peterson]

Is the radio that Lincoln Continental (and Zephyr) used before WWII not considered "Wonderbar?" You could either press a bar on the radio and it would automatically go to the next station, or you could push a button on the floor and do the same thing.

[Guffin]

#13 Hupmobile Century 8 1928 had full flow oil filter, see attatchment.

#12 Buick 1931 to -35 had the oil temperature controlled by the oil heater/cooler.

#16 Buick had ride control 1932. You could adjust the hydraulick shock absorbers with a handle on the steering column.

Jan

[novaman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 25. All steel station wagon (1948)

Out per bernardi and others (1949 Plymouth was first?)

</div></div>

Willys Overland had an all steel station wagon and station sedan in 1946.

[55PackardGuy]

Duly noted (on thread in Packard forum):

K8096,

First power antenna revised to First "electric" power antenna

Wonderbar radio--challenge noted, but see quote above

Fiberglass body--this has never been verified and will be removed

Pleated upholster--debatable and hard to verify, remove.

Power brakes--often debated and will remove (Was Stutz first in U.S. with vacuum assisted power hydraulic brakes???)

Chassis lube system--will be removed, again was Stuz first in U.S.?

Guffin (Jan)

Full flow oil filter--"Hupmobile Century 8 1928 had full flow oil filter, see attatchment" (was Hup first in U.S. with this?) Thanks for documentation!

Oil temperature control--"Buick 1931 to -35 had the oil temperature controlled by the oil heater/cooler" (was this similar to Packard system?)

Ride control for shock absorbers--"Buick had ride control 1932. You could adjust the hydraulick shock absorbers with a handle on the steering column"--noted, this sounds similar to Packard's claim in '33. It would be interesting to hear more about this system.

Unless something special or materially differnt (not apples-to-apples) can be claimed for a Packard system (such as oil temp control, ride control, and others challenged here) the items will be removed as Packard "firsts." So, Packard people, speak up!

Eric, thanks for you points on the electric pushbutton control. I believe the "ride control" comment only applied to shock absorbers in '33, not the Torsion Level system. I think it'll be real hard to challeng the T-L system with an "apples-to-apples" example as this was based on a patented invention by William Allison, who worked with Packard engineering to put it in production in 1955.

NOTE FOR POSTERS:

>Any items with notes below them about challenges will not be removed from the list unless further verification is obtained. Also, NO items without dates will be included unless at least an introduction date is verified. So Speak UP, Packard people!

[DutchDarrin]

55PackardGuy

After reading the orginal forum, that this began in, you are forgetting that NO 2 on the list has been challenged. This pertains to Steering Wheel 1901 no U. S. models cited. How could have over looked Packard53's list on page 4. To refresh your memory below you find a list of U.S. auto manufactures using a steering wheel, before Packard, or using said item at the same time Packard did.

1895 Spahr Runabout Millerberg, Ohio

1896 Bird Trap Auto Buggy Buffalo, New York

1899 Columbia Mark VIII Hartford, Connecticut

1901 Gas Mobile Phaeton Marion New, Jersey

1901 Frisbe Roadster Middle Town, Connecticut

1901 Fey Touring Northfield, Minnesota

1901 Crestmobile Model C Cambridge, Massachusetts

1901 Automotor Springfield, Massachusetts

1901 Winton Runabout Cleveland, Ohio

1901 Stearns Cleveland, Ohio

As can be seen these automobiles places of production the USA.

THE GREAT GRAND WIZARD

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Duly noted (on thread in Packard forum):

Ride control for shock absorbers--"Buick had ride control 1932. You could adjust the hydraulick shock absorbers with a handle on the steering column"--noted, this sounds similar to Packard's claim in '33. It would be interesting to hear more about this system.

Unless something special or materially differnt (not apples-to-apples) can be claimed for a Packard system (such as oil temp control, ride control, and others challenged here) the items will be removed as Packard "firsts." So, Packard people, speak up!

</div></div>

Packard introduced ride control in 1931 in their 900 series. I have ride control in my 903 coupe roadster.

[tbirdman]

How about first carburetor air filter - 1915 Packard Twin Six

[RVAnderson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hand brake left of driver (1915) </div></div>

The humble Model T Ford had its handbrake lever to the left of the driver in 1909.

[mrpushbutton]

bkazmer states: "Chrysler and Desoto had pushbutton automatics in 56 also. Not sure who was first to market" the Chrysler and Desoto pushbuttons were mechanical--lawn mower cables that linked to the valve body control shaft. Packard's 1956 pushbutton system was electronic. Just like to make that distinction.

[55PackardGuy]

I'll note that distinction on the pushbutton, mrpushbutton. And also the hand brake will be deleted unless other evidence arises.

[mrpushbutton]

with a screen name like mine, I oughta' know!

[Guest De Soto Frank]

I presume Packard's PB system worked reliably, unlike Edsel's "Teletouch" ?

[mrpushbutton]

Ahhh-sort of. There were problems, bent contact fingers that stranded the car where ever it occured. The motor/contact assembly mounted to the transmission valve body shaft is such a way that to R&R the whole unit it was necessary to remove the tailstock off the trans and shift the engine and trans to one side (diagonally) to remove the unit (it was a very tight fit between the trans itself and the frame rail. The biggest problem was that Packard went under later that year (I'm deliberately not acknowledging Studebaker's "Packards" that came after) and corner gas station monkeys knew nothing of this system, or who to fix them. A little story for you re: the Edsel

My uncle was a factory-dealer rep in Detroit from the late 40's-early 80's. In 1956, as thing began to get shaky at Packard, there was an understood policy at Ford that anyone who came to a Ford facility from Packard looking for employment was to be hired on the spot. This extended from engineers to assembly line workers to executives. My uncle hung out with marketing guys who were working on this new car, the Edsel. One of the marketing guys was a recent hire from Packard, and he drove a '56 Caribbean convertible. The marketing guys went to lunch in the Packard, and were wild about the electronic push button shift. They had the Packard taken to an engineering garage, where they put it on a hoist and studied the system. They went on to purchase replacement stock parts for the system from a S-P dealer to further study. The big thing thay said was "it's great, but it costs too much to make. We have to figure out a way to do this cheaper". Does that answer your question?

[55PackardGuy]

Didn't the Edsel also have the buttons in the middle of the steering wheel? I could swear I saw one with that setup. Couldn't imagine how inconvenient it would be to put the car in gear or shift when the steering wheel wasn't close to centered.

The Edsel styling, particularly the front end, looks suspiciously similar to the "Black Bess" prototype 1957 (real) Packard. If nothing else, the "horse-collar" grill of the Edsel seems to have been picked up from the Packard's planned vertical center grill section. The Packard's style made some sense, due to its history in the '55 "Request" one-off, but I didn't like the look much on either the '57 Packard prototype or the Edsel.

[mrpushbutton]

55Packard guy, there is a picture on the front of the "Ford at fifty" book (1953) that shows stylists at work in the studio. In the background is a clay model (1/4 scale) that looks an awful lot like the Edsel. Probably an Idea they were working back then. The 1956 L-M models look an awful lot like a Packard, most likely due to Schmidt leaving Packard for Ford, after he designed the 51-54 Packard body, and before Dick Teague re-skinned the 55-56 models.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Guy,

The Teletouch PB were in the center of the steering wheel, but remained stationary as the wheel turned beneath it (kind of like cars that have spark and throttle levers that mount above the the steering wheel).

From what I've been told by various '58 Edsel owners, the common issue with the Teletouch was the electric shifter motor being affected by heat from the exhaust system... one fellow referred to it as a "heat-short"...

Apparently, the Edsel owners have been able to come up with solutions to make it fairly reliable.

[55PackardGuy]

Thanks for the clarification. It shows how misleading first impressions can be. If the Edsel shifter motor had a solenoid, they certainly don't like heat. Starter motors with internal solenoids near exhaust sytems can suffer from "heat sink" and require shielding or relocation of the solenoid.

[Dr Morbius]

Anybody think they should bring "Teletouch Shifters" back to todays cars? [like Packards system but solid state or computer controlled?] More reliable of course - although Rolls-Royce & Bentley use it today.

..................Steve

[Guest De Soto Frank]

You know, when Hudson switched to Hydraulic brakes in the 1930's, they kept a mechanical brake linkage to the rear brakes as a back-up, in case the hydraulics failed... I think they kept this feature into the 1940's...

This new "drive-by-wire" technology has me just a little bit frightened... I understand they're already doing it with the accelerator pedal, and that "electronic steering" isn't far away...

While auto electronics have improved vastly in the last 30 years, I still wouldn't feel comfortable with a vehicle that didn't have a mechanical connection bwteen the steering wheel and the road-wheels...

Call me a Luddite... but what happens to you and those around you when those electronics get grumpy ? It's one thing when your electronic ignition poops-out and you coast over to the shoulder and call the tow-truck... would we be so minimally inconvenienced when the "electronic steering" crashes ?

As for "Acme Futurantic Push-Button Cars", isn't Lexus bringing back a separate dash-mounted starter-button ?

Perhaps Subaru will re-re-invent the Hill-Holder, for the 21st Century (computer-modulated, of course!)...

I wonder what Charlie Kettering would say about all this, were he to visit us in the 21st Century...

[mrpushbutton]

One of the Jap companies brought back the hill-holder in the late 70's, early 80's, with the requsite ad showing their car in San Francisco. The tone of the ad was "look what we invented". Of course, we old car guys just had to laugh it off.

[R W Burgess]

Frank, Our Peterbilts have had fuel pedals by "wire" since at least 1995. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

The problem we run into is after 6-8 years the pedal accurator(SIC) will go bad and you'll have "all" fuel or "at-idle" fuel (no inbetween).

To get her home, we'd put her in gear, go wide open to govenors, skip gears to get to high gear as fast as possible. At that point you kick in the cruise (All electronic diesels have cruise as standard equipment) and keep on trucking. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Makes for interesting driving and gaining stop-light-approach driving styles. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Wayne,

Is THAT why all the truckers are barreling past me at 90+ MPH on I-81 ?

[R W Burgess]

Yep! Stuck accelerators! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mine runs about 105! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

It's best that slow antique cars stay to the right! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[55PackardGuy]

That's scary stuff. I really think mechanical and electronic backups are important. It took forever to go from hydraulic 4-wheel brakes to the dual master-cylinder setup (about 35 years, I think). The auto industry doesn't have a very good track record for redundant systems like the airplane industry has had. Airliners in particular have lots of backups, and they just don't fly if there aren't enough of them operational.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This new "drive-by-wire" technology has me just a little bit frightened... I understand they're already doing it with the accelerator pedal, and that "electronic steering" isn't far away...

While auto electronics have improved vastly in the last 30 years, I still wouldn't feel comfortable with a vehicle that didn't have a mechanical connection bwteen the steering wheel and the road-wheels...

</div></div>

What does the airline industry use for back ups? Planes have been flying by wire for a long time. I suppose it just takes $$$, and a lot of check ups.

[55PackardGuy]

Just knocking around on an internet search, I found an article debating the safety of the Airbus vs. Boeing "fly-by-wire" systems, reportedly the Airbus system has a 5x redundancy and Boeing a mere triple redundancy. In other words 4 backups versus "only" two.

Think about aviation in general: dual controls, dual magnetos (from the old days) multiple engines, multiple radios etc. True, the automotive public wouldn't want to pay for a lot of this stuff, but when it comes to stearing and brakes, running on a single system seems foolish, especially if it's a "by-wire" system.

Airplane manufacturers pioneered backup systems for good reason, you can't pull over to check why your engine quit. But when it comes to stopping and steering, you're in the same predicament with a car--pulling over and stopping safely can become a non-option.

BTW, a revised list of "Packard Firsts" is up on the Packard forum.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Regarding aircraft, "fly-by-wire", redundancy systems etc...

At least aircraft are regulated by stringent FAA regs regarding safety inspections, far more frequent and strict than any state's auto inpsection program that I'm aware of (emissions inspections notwithstanding)... good thing too, because if something on an airplane "quits", the craft is not just going to coast over to the shoulder and wait for Triple A...

My experience has taught me that it takes the average ball-joint front end about 30 years/100,000 miles to begin "falling apart"(literally)... king-pin systems hold together a bit longer...

What is the "enginereed lifespan" or "planned obsolescence" factor for a steer-by-wire car ?

I know that "we have the technology", but when it comes to putting said technology into a package that is affordable to the general public, there is some cheapening-up that happens to the product... so what's going to get traded-off to make steer-by-wire feasible ?

Good thing there's old cars around for ME to drive...

[55PackardGuy]

Here's the "Packad 'Firsts'" list as updated over on the Packard forum. I knew I couldn't count on everyone to go slogging way over there for a look. So many clicks, so little time...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, the list has gone through the rigors of the AACA General forum where it was posted by R W Burgess and has had 500 views and 32 responses in the past few weeks.

The following is a revision based on the suggestions and edits from ALL sources. The original, with notations on sources and comments is shown above on post #372459. That should give the rationale and what has stayed, what is gone, what is modified, and what has been added:

1. Automatic spark advance (1899)

2. ?H? pattern selective gear shift (1900)

3. Hypoid differential (1925)

4. Hydraulic shock absorbers on U.S. vehicle (1926)

5. Backup lights (1927)

6. Self cleaning full flow oil filter (1934)

7. Pressurized cooling system (1938)

8. Aluminum crankcase

9. Air conditioning (1939)

10. Padded dash (1939)

11. Power windows (1940)

12. Direct drive (locking) torque converter (1949)

13. Electric power antenna (1952)

14. Power steering linkage mounted to frame (1953)

15. Reverse rear window (1953)

16. Standard tubeless tires (1954)

17. Fully interconnected 4-wheel torsion bar suspension (1955)

18. Electric load leveler (1955)

19. Pump aided vacuum windshield wipers (1955)

20. Limited slip differential (1956)

21. Pushbutton electric selector for automatic transmission (1956)

22. Reversible seat cushions (1956) </div></div>

Thanks to all who contributed! Many suggestions for deletions noted on this forum were accepted pretty much on faith, and there may be a little more debate on them. For now, it's been trimmed down but still pretty impressive.

I'd really like to hear some MORE SUGGESTION for additions (or maybe replacing some of the deleted items) from the knowledgeable folks on the AACA General forum. Also, if you can make a REALLY good case for a deletion, we'll think about it... but you might have some Packard folks making noise at you! But Packard people are scrupulous, and we took some major things out on own initiative, including such cherished items as the V12 (still some debate on that, though) and even the <span style="font-style: italic">steering wheel</span>!!! No, it wasn't Oldmobile or anybody like that who had the first steering wheel in the U.S., it was the 1898 Winton, a car that inspired Mr. Packard to build his own car, thank you.

[R W Burgess]

Thanks for updating us Guy.

Wayne

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Two Questions about "The List":

#15: "Reverse Rear Window(1953)" - what does this mean?

#19: "Vacuum pump to assist vacuum wipers (1955)" - is this different than a "combination" fuel/vacuum pump ( I thought those were around since the late '30s?)

Thanks...

[Dave@Moon]

Frank,

The "Reverse Rear Window" probably refers to the 2 Packard Balboa show cars of 1953.

[West Peterson]

If that's the case, then Packard needs to be taken off the "first" list for that one. See attached.

[mrpushbutton]

West-I think there needs to be a qualifier added to the reverse rear window--that being "opening and closing" (or "raising and lowering). Are the windows in the Rolls-Canhardly pictured fixed, or do they raise and lower?

DeSoto Frank--the 1955-56 Packard V-8 cars have a vacuum pump located on the bottom of the oil pump,plumbed to the outside of the engine for operation of wipers, etc. This is different from the fuel pump-mounted vacuum pumps (which were located in a much easier place to service!)

[West Peterson]

The Roller's backlight does not lower.

[Guest bkazmer]

"First concept" or "first commercial use"?

Neither the custom-bodied Rolls-Royce nor the Balboa represent use on any commercial scale. I'd say Lincoln-Mercury, reinforced by the old Packard guys, had first volume production.

Hardtops go back to the Classic era if one-off bodies count.

This issue also arises in the very early cars, where an automaker may pioneer an item and use it on both cars he built (mild exaggeration).