Dandy Dave Posted March 21, 2006 Posted March 21, 2006 I have a problem with a 1915 Delco Starter/Generator/Ignition system. There is a Regulating resistance coil in the Delco system of 1915 that was used on large 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder cars. From what I have read in a 1915 Dykes Auto Repair Book, these coils came in different values depending on the application. The values are however not listed. This coil is missing from the unit that is on my 1915 Buick C-36 so I have nothing to work with. Does any one out there know what gage and type of wire/olms per foot was used for these coils. How many winds around how big of a spool or core for this. I've looked around for a coil and have not had any luck finding one yet so it seems I may just have to make one. This system was also used on Hudsons and some other makes from what I have read. I have included a photo of the unit exposing the area under the condenser where this regulating resister goes. Thanks, Dave!
Guest imported_JPIndusi Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 This is a very intriguing problem. If you could only get an idea of the resistance needed and an idea of the maximum current passing through the resistor you might be able to buy or build one yourself. In my electronics parts I have several wire-wound resistors in several watt sizes and low resistance (1 to 10 ohms). Knowing resistance and maximum current, you compute wattage from resistance times the current squared in amps, or W = I X I X R, where X is "times" or multiplication.To build your own resistor I would find an old discarded toaster and use the nichrome heating wire. You can wrap this around a ceramic or glass core from an old time insulator. With a digital voltmeter you can get close to the required resistance.Perhaps someone with a Buick Shop Manual or other reference can help with a wiring schematic.Joe, BCA 33493
Dandy Dave Posted March 22, 2006 Author Posted March 22, 2006 I allready have a wireing schematic so I guess I am on the right path. I was hoping to find someone who has been here and done this before but it seems all the "Old Timers" have gone on to greener pastures leaving us "young un's" to reinvent these things. The tough part of this thing is the wiper arm that changes the resistance as the motor/generator speeds up and slows down. Thanks for the information. Everything helps. Dave!
Guest imported_49packard Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 It sounds like it is a resistor for voltage drop. If you have a schemtic-you can figure it out or get very close. The easiest-but not correct to the time of the car's mfg is a fixed resistor. Wattage can also be determined or close-it is ignition related usually amp draw is very low.
Guest De Soto Frank Posted March 22, 2006 Posted March 22, 2006 Have you tried appealing to a fellow Buick owner with a similar unit, that could measure the over-all resistance on that resistor?Knowing that, and possibly the diameter (gauge) of the nichrome wire inside the unit could enable you to make another resistor winding, and get pretty close...Resistance wire can be obtained from McMaster-Carr, as well as from old appliances...
Guest imported_JPIndusi Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 1DandyDaves:You said something in your last post that could be a complication. You mention "the wiper arm that changes the resistance as the generator speeds up". This seems to imply that this is a variable wire-wound resistor in which the wiper arm is mechanically coupled to something that varies position as the generator speed changes. This is now somewhat more complicated and may warrant a work around that will not be obvious without taking the unit apart. In other words, substitute an electronic circuit designed or purchased to provide regulation in place of this mechanical/electrical system. While this will not be original, this alternative might actually function better.Joe, BCA 33493
Dandy Dave Posted March 23, 2006 Author Posted March 23, 2006 I am a Buick club member and have talked to the fellows over there and also on the Brass Buicks sight. I have been in contact with one fellow who is clear across the country from me who has the same type of car, but, he seems unsure about this part. From talking to him I am not sure that he knows enough about electric to tell me what I need to know, or he just does not want to pull his apart for fear of breaking something which is understandable.
Dandy Dave Posted March 23, 2006 Author Posted March 23, 2006 See, I gots a mighty big problem! This wiper changes everything. Super challenge! What did they know in 1915 that we don't know now? I have a feeling that this did not work so well as it was changed in 1916 to a different charging system. Thanks, Dave!
Guest De Soto Frank Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Well, for one thing, they weren't as technologically-advanced as we are today, therefore, in the 21st Century, we're "too smart" to work on things like this... Based on my limited experience with pre-1930's radios, "Common" components like carbon resistors and mica capacitors look quite different even from those used in electronics gear of the mid to late '30s... my first trip down the road of "ancient electronics" was with a Philco model 20 radio: the first Philco "cathedral" radio... I pulled the chassis out of the cabinet for cleaning and inspection, and when I looked underneath, there was a lot of stuff that I didn't recognize... nor were many things marked with electrical "values" or ratings... mostly just "part numbers", which gave me no clue as to the electrical properties of the device.Most of the time, electrical specifications for auto electrical components are not available to the service person... I don't think I've ever seen a listing of "values" for the capacitor (condensor) that goes inside the distributor, for example...Please drop me an e-mail and if you can, remove the resistor from the generator unit and take some pics, especially of the side that the wiper-contact rides on.(Edit: I just re-read your initial post and saw the word "missing"... . E-mail me anyhow, I'm not giving up all hope... )An old buck that was good friends with my Dad (and an excellent machinist & mechanic) once remarked about fixing "odd" stuff: "If some s.o.b. built it, then I can take it apart and fix it!"... there weren't many things he COULDN'T fix, it seems.Somehow, someway, we'll get you "Fixed"... drop me a line; I'll see how I might be able to contribute to resolving this issue...(Right now I'm in the midst of rebuilding a "rare, unavailable" temperature control from a 1932 GE Monitor-Top refrigerator... trying to cope with a broken (and very complicated switch knob that is a series of moulded (and intricate) cams)... it's not been an easy task, but I WILL repair this control and get the firdge going again...)
D Binger Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Wiper arm? I have a 14 Buick and I have not seen wiper arms in the starter/generator. Do you mean the second set of brushes in the starter/generator? There are two sets of brushes in that unit. One set for stating and the other set is for the generator. They both work on the same commentator. The simplest explanation is that the starter brushes are on the commentator when the starter is turning the engine over to start the car and then when the rpm get to a point the starter brushes are lifted from the commentator and the generate brushes are move on to the commentator. Buick used this basic starter/genereator concept until the mid 20"s My 22 Buick also has a unit with this principle.Dan
Guest imported_JPIndusi Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Frank:I have a Philco Cathedral, I think Model 20 or 22. Great wooden cabinet. I had to replace the grille cloth and a capacitor. Works real nice, but you know these are not superheterodynes, so they tend to get two stations at once, not much discrimination. My old boss, William Higinbotham, who hired me at the Brookhaven National Laboratory about 33 years ago, was the head of electronics during the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos during WW-II. He designed many of the early fast counters and shift registers used in radiation detector systems. He was also the inventor of the video game. He told me once that the early radios on ocean liners were required to be tuned radio frequency (TRF) receivers as the Philco 20 is. This is in case a ship is in distress and is sending the SOS, if their tranmitter is slightly off frequency, the ships in the area will still get the signal and be alerted.By the way I have a schematic for the circuit. I have seen these for sale for around $250-300 for working radio in good cosmetic condition.Joe, BCA 33493
Guest De Soto Frank Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 There was a Delco "Variable Resistance" Generating/Lighting/Ignition system, used on the Hudson Six-40, some Buicks, Cole, Olds, Cadillac; c. 1914.My 1918 Dykes describes it in pretty thorough detail, but it does NOT provide any info about what the resistance value of the wire-wound biscuit is... There was a similar Delco "all-in-one" unit also used on Buicks of the same era that employed third-brush regulation of the genny.The "variable resistance" regulator works on the same basic premise as the "modern" vibrating regulator of the 1930's-'60s: it moderates the field current of the generator to limit the output of the generator(which is a "shunt-type).The fundamental difference is that the moderen vibrating regulator responds to the "state of charge" of the battery; the Delco Variable Resistance unit just increases the field resistance of the shunt, as the engine is speeded-up, controlled by a centrifugal governor and also by the manual spark lever. Basically it cuts back on the charging rate at higher engine speeds, to avoid frying the battery, blowing bulbs, and damaging the generator.The "Easiset" way to figure-out what this resistor needs to be is to find a similar, intact, unit, and measure the resistance block both physically & electrically...I don't know how to determine what it's electrical parameters "should" be just based on the rest of the sutrrounding unit... if you knew what the maximum rated output of the generator section was supposed to be, you could jumper-in a wire-wound rheostat in place of the original resistor, and using a tachometer and accurate ammeter (reading to at least 1/2 amp divisions), set the rheostat to allow max. generator output at max. engine speed, then measure the resistance across the rheostat and record that as the "high-speed limit", then throttle-down to a fast idle (10 mph in High gear), and set the rheostat to allow the generator to produce maximum amperage (which should not be able to match the "high-speed output", due to the lower speed of the armature).... then measure the resistance across your rheostat... this number (resistance in ohms) will be your "low-speed limit"...This process should at least give you a set of boundaries that your resistor "biscuit" has to fall within. Then it's just a matter of building the appropriate core and working-out the windings..."Some s.o.b. had to build it in the first place..." I'd be happy to copy and send you the appropriate pages from my 1918 Dyke's, if they'll shed any more light...I wonder if the AACA Library might have any of the specific ratings/data pertinent to this project ?
Guest De Soto Frank Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Yes, the good old TRF detector circuit...supposedly still one of the most sensitive detector designs... but not very discriminating, as you mentioned... at least not with the three tuning caps ganged onto one shaft... the older three-dial TRFs were better able to zero-in on a single station, in the right hands...I have an Atwater-Kent model 52 (the all-metal floor-model) that has essentially a TRF battery set inside, with three tuning caps side-by-side-by-side, ganged to a single tuning-knob via phosphor-bronze "belts"... and there's a "battery-eliminator" parked next to the receiver; all factory units, just packaged into one cabinet... and the darned thing still works ! (There's just nothing worth listnening to on AM radio any more... [sorry, I don't do "Rush" or ESPN!])The Philco 20 needs some TLC, by still sort-of functions... the cabinet needs help... it's not as pretty as the 70 or 90 cathedrals, but it's "the first"...Still has a lot of its early "balloon"-envelope tubes...I have another battery set that looks like early '20s home-built...uses two tubes, one detector, one amplifier... the wiring is all solid-copper, square-drawn, #14, covered with "spaghetti", and run and bent all at right-angles...I don't know if it ever worked... if I ever scare-up some -01A and -00A tubes, I might see if it does function...Would love to have an Attwater-Kent bread-board, but then I'd also love to have a Packard Twin-Six Special or Locomobile 48... I'm just a bit short on cash right now...
D Binger Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Frank,I am sorry I tried to help. You seem to have all the answers. You are the expert. You have all the books. I have just worked on them.Dan
Guest De Soto Frank Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Sorry Dan... didn't mean to step on toes.I wish I did have more hands-on with brass & nickel stuff.I guess I'll just sit quietly in the cheap seats.
Dandy Dave Posted March 24, 2006 Author Posted March 24, 2006 D. Binger. Your Buick must be a 1914 B-24 or B-25? From what I have read, and also from work I did on a 1914 B-24 for a friend, the smaller cars did not use the larger Delco system with the automatic advance/regulating resistance unit.The larger units with this feature was used on The C-36, C37, C-54 C-55. So you are right in the respect that these smaller units did not have a wiper arm. The 1915 Dykes that I have shows 2 different systems. The one that you speak of with both commutators together on one end, and the larger system with the Commutators on opposite sides of the armature like mine. From the research that I have done, it seems Buick/Delco only did this on their 1915 models, And again, only on the larger cars. Other makes may have had it before and after of which I cannot say. I did post a picture at the top of this post. Take a look and you will see the difference. Thanks for the information. Everything Helps I don't want to start a war and get everyone not talking. I'll never get this thing fixed that way.
Dandy Dave Posted March 24, 2006 Author Posted March 24, 2006 Frank said,The "Easiset" way to figure-out what this resistor needs to be is to find a similar, intact, unit, and measure the resistance block both physically & electrically...That's what I'm after. It's where I'm at! I think this unit is a round coil but I am not sure. It could be a board, or square? I would really like a photo of one, or even a burned out unit to see the way it is made. I do have a large rheostat that I could wire in the system to do as you suggest and could find the parameters. But that still leaves the question of "reinventing this unit" left to the imagination. i If none of these are accessable for photos or information I guess I'll have to get to work and "JUST DO IT" Thanks for the information. I do appreciate everyones input very much Dave!
Dandy Dave Posted March 27, 2006 Author Posted March 27, 2006 It seems I've been Deserted. I know these cars/ units exist but no body's talking. I bought an old toaster on ebay and some Nicrome wire of different dimensions. Guess I'll just have to build it the hard way. Dave!
Dandy Dave Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 For those following this post, Today I hit on some information that has put me halfway home and I'm sure it could help someone else. Yesterday I could not have told you this, but thanks to a Delco Book that I just recived in the mail today from an e-bay purchase, I have the right unit in my car. The book says the proper unit for my car is a No 51 which is what I have. It even gives me the different Nicrome wire gages used in the part that I need to reproduce. I'm half way home. I just need to find out about the spool now. There are 6 different regulating resistance coils used for the type that I have. This book covers about 15 different makes that used Delco systems up to 1916. Almost every make had a different number for different cars and applications. The book also says that some of the armatures look the same and will fit but will not work because they are wound according to the speed that it turns. When I get done with this I'll be an expert!(Hee Hee).If anyone has a 1916 or older stray Delco Starter Generator and would like to know what it fits send me the model number and I will look it up for you. Keep on smileing, Dave!
Guest imported_JPIndusi Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 1DandyDaves:Well you are making progress. Is the unit you desire to build one resistor with a wiper or 6 separate resistors?Joe, BCA 33493
Dandy Dave Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 I though I would start with the one that is listed as the "Most Common" Which is in the middle. The wire gages are listed as 21 Thu 26 dependin upon the application. The most common is a No. 702 which is 23 gage nicrome wire .022" Two of these I will not need at all as they are for units 52 and 58 which turns one and one-half engine speed. As listed, the following automobiles used this regulating resister with the Delco unit. Buick C-36-37-54-55Alburn Six-40Cadillac "8"Cole 650Hudson Six-40Jackson Six-40Moon Six-40-4-38Oakland 37-49Olds 42Paterson Four 32, Six-48Westcott "U" SixThis book also has information on wireing diagrams/ Unit number for application on many other models that used the Delco system from 1916 and before. If any one wants this information let me know and I will look up your car model for you and give you the information. Dave!
Mark Shaw Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 Dave, Is there a photo or drawing that you can scan and post?Mark Shaw
Dandy Dave Posted March 30, 2006 Author Posted March 30, 2006 Mark, I scaned a picture from my 1915 Dykes. It is a little unclear but shows the location or the regulating resister. I tried to email this to you but it kept getting rejected. No idea why? Thanks,Dave!
Mark Shaw Posted March 30, 2006 Posted March 30, 2006 Dave, It is still really hard to see even when I magnified the scan. Can you post or send me a magnified scan of my C25 unit so I can see where this part is? Maybe mine is similar enough & I can photograph mine and post it to help ID the part you need.Mark
Dandy Dave Posted March 31, 2006 Author Posted March 31, 2006 Mark, The unit on your C-25 Does not have this part nor does it have automatic advance or the wiper arm. I have posted a photo from the Dykes book so you can compare and see the difference in the units. Dave!
Dandy Dave Posted April 3, 2006 Author Posted April 3, 2006 I'm almost home on this one. I've found a supplier of ceramic materials that can make almost anything ceramic, and ordered what I need. And found another that can supply the nichrome wire. Yeah, looks like I get to do it the hard way. But at least I'm doing it! The Brass end caps I can easily turn out on the lathe. When I get it all together I'll post back the final results. Dave!
Guest De Soto Frank Posted April 4, 2006 Posted April 4, 2006 Dave,Chances are that if you were confronted with this problem back in the Teens, you might have been making the part yourself as an expedient alternative to trying to order a new one...Good luck !
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