Jump to content

'31 Cylinder Block

Tom M

By Tom M
in Packard

 Share

Recommended Posts

Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
Posted

Have some bad news. The shop called 1/2 hour ago and said I have some cracks in the block <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />(which he said have been in there for sometime now). They are repairable but before the shop goes any farther I asked him to come up with a cost for the whole job with and without Egge parts. For some reason he wants to put better parts in her. This is not a high dollar car. I just want it for a driver.

He is going to send me some pictures which I will post.

Rick,

You are right I must of used too much nitro <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Link to comment
Share on other sites
West Peterson 25,000+ Points

West Peterson

Posted
Posted

I'm searching for a 1931 cylinder block as well. I bought a 1932 Super Eight cylinder block out of the Packard museum in Dayton last year and had it checked. It had no cracks, and, I think, the original bore. I thought the 1931 and '32 were the same, but I was informed later that the manifold ports are different, so I brought it back. Was I told correctly?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Packard8 2,500+ Points

Packard8

Posted
Posted

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For some reason he wants to put better parts in her. This is not a high dollar car. I just want it for a driver.

He is going to send me some pictures which I will post.

Rick,

You are right I must of used too much nitro <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

The machinist I use has had some less than good experiences with Egge of late. He does a lot of old car work and recently ordered some pistons, rings brgs etc to rebuild an old Desoto hemi. He said the pistons were ?junk? and had to send them back. I?m afraid a lot of stuff is now being sourced out of Bangladesh, Pakistan, Bongo-Bongo or wherever they get the lowest price. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Len Sholes

Guest Len Sholes

Posted
Posted

Tom, I am waiting for you to post the photos of the cracks that are in your block as I am curious where they are. Did he give you any idea as to what he thought might have caused them? Stress related, frost or frozen related or a design problem?

With regards to the negative comments that are expressed about Egge products I am surprised that there has not been a response from them. Some one in there organization must read some of the posts that are condemming their product. It sounds like this is a general opinion from the West Coast to the East Coast in the US and I have also heard complaints of the problem in B.C. Canada. The complaint that I have heard from this area is that the quality of the material used when they manufacture the pistons is contaminated which in turn causes a piston failure. I am wondering if this what the general complaint is or is it their machining tolerances are not consistant? As I mentioned to you before there is quite a difference in the appearance of their pistons compared to ones that are supplied by Ross. But there again are we comparing apples to apples as there is quite a difference in the price. It could be a situation in that you only get what you pay for. I personally have to think that if the Egge product was all that bad and this is known to the old car hobby then why are they still in business?

Keep us informed on your engines progress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest imported_Speedster

Guest imported_Speedster

Posted
Posted

The most common cracks in those engines is around the head stud bolts and are caused by over tightening them. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> If they are there, they can usually be repaired with laceing-plugs, if you can find a machine-shop that knows how to do that. And it's usually best to have the cylinders sleeved, if there are any cracks at top of block.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

The pictures are of the block after it was magna fluxed.

I asked the shop on how he was going to fix cracks and he stated they Ping them. Does any one knows what this means?

O and by the way the one cylinder will have to be sleeved. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

post-31137-143137889963_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest imported_Speedster

Guest imported_Speedster

Posted
Posted

Could it have been Pin (or Pinned)? I think that's what some people call laceing-plug installation. Laceing-plugs are small special bolts that are tapped in across the crack and pull it together to stop the crack from getting any larger. Then you grind off the top, flush with block surface. They work very well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest imported_Speedster

Guest imported_Speedster

Posted
Posted

I just edited my above post and answered your question.

Small cracks like that are not much of a problem unless they grow and turn into Big Cracks. That's what the laceing-plugs do, stop it from growing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest imported_Speedster

Guest imported_Speedster

Posted
Posted

If that's just for the Block work, That's Way Too Much. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> If that includes crankcase work (babbits, etc.) and complete reassembly, then $5K, Maybe. Repairing cracks does take a lot of time and work,

But I could get it done for a lot less here, in a small local shop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Rick,

No it is not just going to be the block work. I will be dropping off the valves, old pistons and rods so he can look at the babbitt to see if it needs replacing. I am trusting his judgment on all that and the purchase of pistons, guides etc.

For reassembling I will reinstall the block to crank case, pistons to crank, valves and springs etc.

West,

I asked the shop about that and he said he has had customers spend thousands on a used block and had found cracks in them also.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest imported_Speedster

Guest imported_Speedster

Posted
Posted

Yes, small cracks like that are almost impossible to see without Magnafluxing and most engines that old do have them. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'm afraid to have my 385 Magnafluxed so I'm going to try it the way it is, since I don't see any cracks big enough to stick my finger thru. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I finally got my valves back on Monday. I will be heading down to the shop on Friday to drop them off.

Can anyone give me a ball park figure on what this rebuild should cost? I don?t want to be taking to the cleaners on it.

Here is what the shop is doing for me

Magnafluxing

Fix Cracks that were found

Purchase stud bolts

Purchase Pistons, Rings

Bore Cylinders to match New Pistons

Purchase Valve Guides and install

Resurface Valve seats or replace if needed

Fix or Replace Valve Spring Caps

Metal Fill and tap stripped holes for water jacket cover

[color:"blue"]I will be reassembling engine.

For the nuts for the head I am going to use regular nuts (not the Chromed Acorn Nuts) and purchase the CHROMED ACORN-STYLE ENGINE BOLT COVERS from JCWitney. Can I use standard 7/16-20 nuts or are they a special type. I found the attach picture from another thread and it is hard to tell if the bottom part of the nut is a washer or part of the nut.

Thanks

post-31137-143137889978_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest imported_Speedster

Guest imported_Speedster

Posted
Posted

I've used regular hardware-store Cad-plated 7/16 Nuts, on several engines, with no problems. Torque and Retorque the nuts (after running a while), before putting on the nut covers. The chrome covers have to be tight on nut But they also have to be removable, since it's best to take them off to ReTorque the nuts. I use a gummy adhesive, that doesn't get hard, to hold them on if they are loose. There should be thick flat washers under the nuts, Not lock washers.

I've found that machine shops generally charge 'Whatever they Can Get Away With'. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I always agree on a price before hand and try to talk him down, if I don't have that much in my pocket. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> They usually find something else needing to be corrected, but that's okay since we agreed on a base price. Here in Texas 'Horse trading' and making deals is a 'Way of Life'. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And makes any transaction much more fun. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Rick,

Thanks. I am going to go that route then. The shop told me that the chromed acron nuts can give false readings.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">'Whatever they Can Get Away With'</div></div> Hope not <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Shop just called. The rebuild is going to cost around $7,500 <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.

Looks like I will be eating hot dogs and beans now. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest imported_Speedster

Guest imported_Speedster

Posted
Posted

OUCH, I don't know what the situation is there in your location but that's way more than it cost around here. I always agree on a general price before starting work, then negotiate any add on expense. But it's too late to worry about that, so I just hope he did a good job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest imported_Speedster

Guest imported_Speedster

Posted
Posted

Since I don't know all the work that is to be done, I can't really compare prices but I would suggest contacting at least one other shop to see how much they charge for same work.

Yes, I always provide major replacement parts when possible. As an example: if I'm getting cylinders rebored, He will measure and determine what size rings & pistons are needed, Then I will go get them, so he can do a final fitment to block. I do most of my own reassembly, but he does things like grinding & fitting rings, pressing in piston pins, or anything that I don't have proper equipment to do.

In the case of the first '29 standard-8, I could only find one size of oversize pistons & rings at the time, so he had to do them that size, except one cylinder was way over so he had to put in a sleeve to bring it down to the proper size. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I always double check their measurements, and don't just take their word for it and give them extra money. If you ask in a friendly way, most mechanics don't mind if you ask questions and double check. If they do mind, I'd find a different guy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Rick,

In the above post #373538 that is what he will be doing plus ordering new valve springs.

I just priced out the above parts at Kanter, Egge and Max Merritt and I came up with $900-$1,500. I can't believe it is over $5000 for labor. I am going to ask the shop to fax me a quote with breakdown. This is frustrating....

Has anyone heard of a shop named Harts? They are located in Ohio. I was just referred to them as an alternative place to send my engine to instead of the place I have it at now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
26pack 500+ Points

26pack

Posted
Posted

I had my 1926 6 cylinder engine rebuilt there recently. They did it ahead of schedule and under budget! The engine needed everything- magnaflux, fix cracks, regrind everything, new valves, rollers, pistons, etc. I believe it was about (or maybe less than) 5G. The other shop wanted over 13G! If you speak to Randy, tell him Jerry with the 26 Packard says hi.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dr Morbius 1,000+ Points

Dr Morbius

Posted
Posted

Do yourself a favor - don't get your pistons from "Egge" - your gonna be sorry!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I don't know about the other stuff from them but if you don't want to rebuild your engine in 6 months to a year down the road then do not use their pistons !!!

From one of many who knows - ask the man who owns one.

........................Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Jerry,

I finally got threw to Randy and mention your name and some others that have had work done by him. He said thanks to you for the refernece. He sounded like a very pleasant person on the phone.

He did give me a estimate over the phone from what I told him I needed done. He is around $3000 less then the shop I have it at now (which I still have not received an estimate yet from). I will be pulling it this week and hopefully get it out to Randy next week.

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Randy Berger

Guest Randy Berger

Posted
Posted

Tom, sounds like a good move. If your original shop hasn't given you an estimate yet, imagine how long they would take to do the job. Make sure you get all your parts back - they may have partly disassembled engine in order to give estimate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Randy,

Thanks for the advice. I had it all disassembled when I brought it to him. But I will make sure all the parts I gave him I get back.

I should of said he gave me a verbal estimate not a written one as of yet. It has been 2-3 weeks and counting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Glassesguy 2,500+ Points

Glassesguy

Posted
Posted

I used to work in Fremont, Ohio. Left 2 years ago. Fremont Auto Parts is a NAPA store with an engine rebuilding shop well versed and well known in rebuilding antique engines. Ernst Hillenbrand has a couple of Hershey winning Packards and his engine work was done there. Maybe you Packard owners know his name. Tom Schemmer and John Forsythe would be your contacts. 419-332-8296. Hope this info isn't too old.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Dave,

Thanks for the reference.

I will be picking the block Friday. I called Harts (Randy) last week he said they can have a truck pick it up at my house or they can set me up with a local trucking firm where I can drop it off. I sure hope this shop workout?s for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
26pack 500+ Points

26pack

Posted
Posted

Tom:

I'm glad things look like they might work out. Like I said, I was more than happy with the job they did on my engine, which required a complete rebuild. It now hums like a sewing machine, like a good Packard should.

Good luck!

Jerry

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Jerry,

That makes me fell better. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The shop that I may have do my metal work has used them also with good success. He did say on one engine rebuild he had one cyclinder go bad but they fix it with no charge. They did't even charge him for shipping. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

It was sent to me in PDF so I had to scan it to tiff then save that to jpg. Is there a way to save a PDF to jpg?

He charged for 3 calls @$20 per call, $40 to send me the pictures of the cracks. $72 for the head work which the head is sitting on my garage floor unless he meant the head of the cylinder block. Well I guess today is different then back when my stepfather owned a service station. They charge for everything now.

Guess one good thing out of all this I am getting it out of there before it went way over my budget.

Thanks all again for the other references. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest BigKev

Guest BigKev

Posted
Posted

Tom,

Not sure about Acrobat Reader, but I know in the full version of Acrobat you can click the on the file menu and do a Save As, and then pick your poison (JPG, BMP, GIF, Tiff, they are all there).

Also if that doesnt work, view the document in Acrobat and hit the PrintScreen button on your keyboard and then you can paste it into the Graphic Editor of your choice and then save it to whatever format you wish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom M 10,000+ Points

Tom M

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Hey Guys,

I left work early yesterday so I am checking my work email from home and guess what I have a revised work order with the head cost taken off. Wonder if he is watching this thread?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...