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Supercharging (this time, it's real)


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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">any advantage to this, or is it just to say "yeah you did it" </div></div>

Huge driveability advantages, especially under boost. Had to add a bit of fuel at WOT. Less prone to detonation as well.

I don't have any dyno numbers (may swap it back and forth next time I strap it down), but seat of the pants feel says a noticeable increase.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmm...got me thinking. Accel makes high performance coils for the Magnavox unit (what I've been using but I swtched back to a Delco to avoid most ignition problems. Hard to troubleshoot with multiple problems) and also the 3 for the Delco

Here's a link to the Delco coils from Jeg's </div></div>

Quite honestly I don't see the need for aftermarket coils for these engines. The coil-over-plug setup sounds nice, but I don't think it is necessary. Allow me to explain...

Concerning the Magnavox type coils, that was the same setup GM used on the Turbo Regals and Grand Nationals. There are pleanty of people out there running 9's and faster in the 1/4 mile using stock GM/Magnavox ignition components. Same goes for the newer "Delco" systems (3-coil). The Grand Prix community has proven you can run 10's and faster in a FWD car using the stock ignition system.

I have worked with MSD and ACCEL aftermarket coils in the past, and quite honestly, I have realized that most of the time they create more problems than they solve. Personally, I wouldn't waste any money on them. The reason why is the stock coils can supply more than enough energy to light off one of these engines under boost -- that much has been proven. Secondly, a "hotter" coil is going to require more juice to activate it and I have seen many people running these aftermarket coils fry their stock ignition modules.

If I were going to do any modification to the ignition system on my 3800's, I would save the money and do a coil-on-plug setup like TrofeoSC has done. But again, I don't think it is absolutely necessary.

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I don't have the exact numbers but I saw some MSD coils on ebay a while back that would replace the Delco coils, but looking at the specs, it seemed like the Delco coils were better. I'm not an electrical expert, but I was an engineering physics major at one point. I think the Delco 3-coil set-up is better but probably good enough instead of spending a lot on aftermarket stuff. Good luck with your project, I read about it everyday with great anticipation.

-Dan

90' Black/Tan Coupe

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I just got back inside...

I DONT KNOW WHATS WRONG WITH THE STUPID CAR. I can't get it to run at all. It turns and turns with only a sputter every few seconds. I also tried flooring it for "clear flood" but that didn't make a difference. Battery is past 12 volts. I checked the connections and sequence of the ignition wires, all was good and I didn't touch them anyway in my replacement of the supercharger to intake manifold gasket.

MAF, IAC, TPS are all plugged back in like they should be. I don't recall doing anything that would have possibly caused this.

Before this, the car was needing close to a normal amount of starter cranking time. Maybe a couple seconds more, but it didn't take much for it to take off.

Could I have F-ed up the valves when I ran the car without the exhaust connected? Would it keep the car from starting?

I probably should not have attempted this project

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A few things to check (non-reatta-specific):

Fuel - Pressure good? Smell fuel at the tailpipe after failed starts? All lines to/from the regulator and fuel rail as they should be? Injector wires plugged into the right places?

Spark - Got spark? On all plugs? I've had similar symptoms from a failed ignition coil, and also from an internally-broken plug wire.

I honestly can't see running the car with little exhaust (you did still have the manifolds and some piping connected, yes?) hurting the valves.

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Take a break, leave car alone for a day or two. Get in a better frame of mind, then start going back over what you have done. This procedure works for me most times. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but you guys are out of my league on this project. You have done a great job so far, & current setback is probably something minor. With your knowledge & all the help from others, you will have it up & running soon. P. S. Let us know when you will be in Orlando, will try to meet up & buy you a beexxxxx COKE. smile.gif

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Thanks for the tips and support. I did recheck to make sure the injector harness was plugged into the injectors right. The ignition wires are a week old and the car ran fine with them before this. I traced all of them from the coil to the plugs a few times to make sure they were plugged in right, though I didn't unplug them anyway.

I'll try my other coil. There is a chance it went bad on me.

The fuel rail's getting the right 38 PSI.

I do believe in the "walk away and cool off" approach, but I've tried it a few times

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When in doubt, go through the "Cranks but does not run" section in the service manual. One for a n/a engine is about the same as for s/c (in 6E3-A )

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Follow Padgett's suggestion, there are only so many things that can cause your condition. You've proven you've got fuel pressure but you need signal to trigger both the ingition Module and the Injectors.

Suggest you also recheck the ECM to make sure both the PROM and the Main Connectors are fully engaged. Bend just one pin connector and you're "frigged".

You had the belts off and onn, any chance you disurbed the wiring harness down to the Crank Sensor, maybe?

In that sequence Padgett referrs you to I believe theres' a "test Light" routine to jumper off an injector to confirm you've got the signals constant. Same with a spark Plug removed and fired. One, the other or both are not firing off and theres' a signal failure cause to traced down.

That's everything I can think of, don't get too frustrated, it's going to be found and fixed!

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you have a pic of the coil set up? this sounds very interesting </div></div>

I don't have any close-ups of the coils, but here's an engine shot.

<img src=http://www.theautoshop.net/TrofeoEngine2/L67_CNP_Trofeo.JPG>

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you. I'm gonna go nap, and then I've got to help my brother move.

Will look into the service manual.

And hey, Ryan's chips have arrived! Yay </div></div>

Check and make sure all vacuum lines got plugged back in, including the one going to the brake booster. A massive vacuum leak will prevent the engine from starting, especially on a MAF system. If you are confident all of your vacuum lines are connected properly, check for spark. Check for injector pulse. Do NOT use a conventional test light to check for injector signal from the ECM, you can fry the injector drivers. Only use approved "NOID" lights. You can get these at autozone.

BTW, I went out to the junkyard today and found a 94 or 95 3800 Series 1 SC engine. I got to looking at the fuel rail and found the fuel pressure specs for the Series 1 SC engine printed right on the regulator: 2.7 bar. That works out to 39psi; and that would be without any vacuum or boost present at the regulator.

TrofeoSC: Nice looking swap!

-ryan

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Lower fuel pressure now makes sense for the injector size. That would make them about 29.5# injectors @ 3 bar, about the same as used in a GN. Is it possible Philips plugs are simply wet? On some of the older GM ignitions, like the HEI, it won't fire into a shorted or wet plug.

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Will check those things, and will look into this special injector test light

I'll test each plug wire for spark (I have an extra set of plugs so it won't be tedious). I didn't have a bad enough leak to get the plugs wet, and they've had a few days to dry

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I see. Will be getting one (just got back at my computer, was gonna price one at Advance's website).

I'll regap my old plugs and put them back in. I suppose there's a chance one of my new ones went bad on me or something. I'll make sure they spark before putting them in.

We've got to be close. It's almost starting up.

I figured I might as well, so my ECM has Ryan's 1.0a chip with the modified MAF calibration

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With one bad plug or even two crossed wires, the engine will start if all else is good. It will even idle somewhat decently (right Greg ?).

If not starting at all it is probably something else. I'd check all wiring connectors I was even remotely near.

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Actually NOID is a very good check because to flash you must have a good (or at least marginally working) crank sensor, ignition modules, and ECM. With checks for fuel rail pressure and secondary ignition (spark flasher, usu on sale at Harbor Fright - think I paid two bucks) if all are good, the engine should fire (unless timing is way off which is hard to do with DIS - about the only way is to have the plug wires in the wrong order).

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Since it was running before and now it isn't, it might be a good idea to check that the timing chain and gears are still in proper alignment. I spent a week fiddling with a Mustang (289) before I finally checked that the No.1 piston was at TDC when the No. 1 plug fired. It wasn't; timing chain had stretched and slipped one cog. Similar symptoms, would fire erratically but not start. Well, actually it would if I advanced the spark as far as it would go, but you can't do that. I believe you said the engine had 146,000 miles?

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154k miles

But hang on guys, I'm onto something...

From a while back I had a spare of cheap Champion plugs, so I pulled my Delcos out. They seemed to be flooded. More significantly, I found that a few of the boots on the wires had disintegrated, probably from when my exhaust manifold got really really hot. I had some good, used wires, and with the new plugs, I tried it out...

I can get it to run for a few seconds, but with TONS of white smoke. Hmmm...so, I proceeded to pull of the supercharger again to inspect the gasket. It backfired in my testing, and I found coolant even in my cone filter blush.gif. And again, a pool of coolant in the intake manifold. God gummit. Using a turkey baster, then rags, and then air, I got all the water I could out of the intake (including blowing air into the injector ports). I also blew out the supercharger and throttle body (had coolant dripping out of the throttle body). It wasn't a nice thing to see all this coolant where it shouldn't be.

I called out my dad to help me examine the gasket, and from what we can tell, it's not quite the right one. Advance has provided me the wrong one twice. It looks perfectly fine but check out the pix...

sc40.jpg

First, this is a view of the bottom of the supercharger. Take note of the part with "1B" stamped in it.

sc41.jpg

Dunno if this photo got corrupted, but this is the gasket over the supercharger. Notice how the "1B" indentation isn't really sealed. I don't know what this indentation is for

sc42.jpg

This is a shot of the intake manifold. Notice the indentation

sc43.jpg

And, this the gasket over it.

This gasket just doesn't seem right. I'm going to be in San Antonio with family for spring break beginning tomorrow, but I should still be able to visit the board. When I get back I'm going to order a GM gasket set. The one's I've been getting from Advance are prescribed for a '95 SSEi (which is what this intake manifold and supercharger are from).

Weird stuff. But thanks guys. BTW, I did drain the engine oil in case coolant got into the crankcase

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You're right, the gasket looks "odd". I have never had an s/c off of one these but the coolant passages for the TPI manifold are sealed with o-rings in the recess and no gasket between the upper and lower. It certainly looks like if coolant gets out of the throttle body warming passages it would be sucked into the s/c bypass below the throttle valve. Is the throttle body gasket okay where it bolts to the s/c? Maybe the s/c guys can shed light on this area?

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The gaps around the valve in SC41 do not look right. The "depression" looks like it just connects two coolant passages but the gaps around the valve would leak fer sure.

If that is the right gasket (which I doubt) it would sound like a job for JBWeld.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The gasket between the throttle body and S/C seems to be fine. I used a new one (and I can say that I'm pretty darn sure it was the right one). </div></div>

This does NOT look good to me:

sc41.jpg

As the fellow earlier said, if coolant made it past the gasket it would immediately get sucked right into the engine. I would obtain the correct fitting gasket before proceeding.

-ryan

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Yes sir. I'm gonna obtain one from a local GM dealer, cuz this just isn't right.

I feel bad for letting this happen and getting coolant in the motor, but oh well, I'm still learning all this junk.

As I said, I'm going to give up on getting the right one from advance and just go to Story Pontiac in Lansing

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If it just got sucked into the exhaust you just experienced water injection. Doubt that it did any damage.

I would be having Sharp Words with Advance (here we have Advance, Autozone, and Pep Boys close. I order from GMPD and wait for the mail before going to Advance).

Someday will relate the tale of rebuilding a VW motor three times in as many months because the initial machining had a .002" error.

That said, why does the gasket look dark on the lower right ?

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Water injection? Like WW2 planes?

This goofup from Advance isn't acceptable. I'll at least make the point that their computer catalog is prescribing the wrong stuff. We buy loads of stuff from them all the time and have a commercial account. A while back they got a new manager that was being an azzhole to us, but I guess my dad called the district manager...I walked in again and was greeted with an enthusiastic "hello there Mister Croff." That mess started a few months ago when I got CV shafts for my Reatta from them, and the new manager was being a hardazz to warranty it...I got it and it was "pulled out" inside. Kept blaming it on me. I said F it and took the boot apart and fixed it myself. I need to do my shopping at NAPA, Car Quest, or one of the better auto parts stores.

The gasket was a bit wet from the coolant, which is why there's some dark spots.

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Philip: Did you get two new "o-rings" for those two coolant ports with the last gasket kit? If not, make sure you get them with the next kit. If the kit does not come with them, get them seperately (GM sells them). I have had instances where the coolant was able to "seep" thru the paper gasket over time. Also, in the pictures you provided I see what appears to be some contaminiation of the sealing surfaces around the coolant ports on both the lower intake and SC. If you can't clean these up, it would be acceptible to smear a very light coating of ultra-black RTV on these surfaces before assembly.

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Will keep the O-rings in mind.

The surfaces where the O rings go does look to be a little corroded, but it feels smooth. Will use a small bit of RTV next time though, cuz I'm getting tired of taking it on and off

When I get back from my spring break trip I'm gonna get this project done. I wanna drive!

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