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Supercharging (this time, it's real)


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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some time ago I put together a CD with an enormous amount of data on 5B (code in the PROM for a 3800) engines and the Motorolla chipset including disassemblies of the ECM and BCM and a number of the different PROMs used on Reattas plus a few L-67s. Sent it to a few people but nothing ever came of it.

However I have never put it all together so if anyone has the time and inclination to put it together, drop me a line and I'll burn a copy. Also be glad to advise on specifics but have too many projects now and am happy with mine. </div></div>

I wouldn't mind a copy. PM or email me and let me know how much you want.

-ryan

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't expect any compensation since this is turning into a learning experience for everyone. I feel as though all of this information should be in the public view so it can be the best help to the community.

</div></div>

Spoken like a true gentleman and ambassador of our "hobby"!!!

This IS a man true to his word, would be a pleasure to business with a person of this nature!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My little brother (14 y/o) is interested in computer coding...I should get him to learn our ECMs . </div></div>

Padgett's CD would help him get started, along with the data shared by Trofeo and gmtuners! A great project to challenge a young programming enthusiast! wink.gif

Did you get those parts painted yet, Philip? Custom engine setup warrants custom looks, y'know! No time like the present! A HOT engine looks hotter in RED! cool.gif

(prod-prod-poke-jab!) grin.gif

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I hope that you are not going to take the supercharger apart!!! I believe that it can not be reassembled without some incredibly expensive alignment tools. I could be wrong but I believe that it is essentially impossible for a DIYer to get it right.

I could be wrong but I think you shouldn't!!!

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Distracted: not to worry. I only removed the unit/assembly from the intake manifold.

So yeah, I got it off this afternoon. The coolant leak was between the intake manifold and the supercharger, below the throttle body. It was pretty substantial...I'd consider it a trickle. I didn't see anything wrong. The two yellow O rings (these and the gasket I bought new when I assembled) were seated where they should be. The leak was enough to make a pool of coolant in the intake manifold. I can't either way if this leak was going on during my testing. I don't know too well, but I'm sure it had some type of influence on my readings and the bogging.

Since I used the L67 intake manifold, there shouldn't be any compatibility problems that I know of. I just went out again and took another close look, but didn't find any cracks etc.

Disassembly was pretty simple. Took less than an hour.

Ryan (or anyone else): have there been any problems like this before? Is there a special procedure in doing this that I don't know of. On both sides of my gaskets I've been using this Permatex stuff...comes in a short, little plastic can with a brush in the cap and is kinda brown. Is this good? Is this one of those times to use RTV?

Thank you.

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Folks: for people here and that definately includes Ryan, just send me a name and address and I will send a CD. Don't expect something all nice and neat thought, really is a mass of data that needs collating but it is a *lot* of data. Could be a group effort.

All I ask is that you share what you find as I am interested but just do not have the time and am not going into business with it, just would like to know.

And still have a desire to replace the odo reading on the dash with two digits of oil pressure, a space, and three digits of coolant temp. when the engine is running.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So yeah, I got it off this afternoon. The coolant leak was between the intake manifold and the supercharger, below the throttle body. It was pretty substantial...I'd consider it a trickle. I didn't see anything wrong. The two yellow O rings (these and the gasket I bought new when I assembled) were seated where they should be. The leak was enough to make a pool of coolant in the intake manifold. I can't either way if this leak was going on during my testing. I don't know too well, but I'm sure it had some type of influence on my readings and the bogging.

Since I used the L67 intake manifold, there shouldn't be any compatibility problems that I know of. I just went out again and took another close look, but didn't find any cracks etc.

Disassembly was pretty simple. Took less than an hour.

Ryan (or anyone else): have there been any problems like this before? Is there a special procedure in doing this that I don't know of. On both sides of my gaskets I've been using this Permatex stuff...comes in a short, little plastic can with a brush in the cap and is kinda brown. Is this good? Is this one of those times to use RTV?

Thank you. </div></div>

I don't normally use RTV between the SC and lower intake manifolds on the engines I work with unless there was a lot of pitting of the aluminum. If you are going to use RTV, I suggest permatex ultra black or ultra copper for this application.

Padgett, you have a PM.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The aluminum is in excellent shape. Should I use nothing at all on the gasket? </div></div>

Honestly you shouldn't need anything on the gasket. If you didn't use any RTV sealer before and it leaked, I would say try using some. But if you did try using RTV before and it leaked, it is very possible the thickness of the RTV around those coolant ports probably caused the leak.

-ryan

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Did you lay a straight edge across both the upper and lower to check for flatness? I think the seals you are talking about are the throttle body heating passages? It appears to be a pretty good design that shouldn't require any help from sealants. I agree with the other post that the Permatex or whatever was used on the manifold may have prevented them from being "squashed" properly? I would doubt this would cause the bogging problem, as you didn't seem a have vacuum leak, and if the coolant leak went external only, it won't do any real harm. If it leaks into the engine, that isn't a good thing. Watch you oil carefully for contamination.

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I've been perusing this thread in an attempt to decide whether or not to supercharge my Reatta wink.gif ...anyway I just had the following thought:

The two balancers and their associated trigger rings are different diameters, yes? If you're using the larger in place of the smaller, the rotational speed is going to be faster than if you were using the smaller one. Could this confuse the computer into yanking timing?

Am I totally off-base here? confused.gif

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OK was just a bit confused - then the leak was between the s/c and the manifold and not the manifold and the heads.

Balancers are not interchangable - "C" is a slip on while the "L" and later ate press on.

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I got wondering about the different ring diameters creating a different signal, but it hasn't been commented on. Then again, our LN3 ECMs have been used numerous times to control L67s, and this problem hasn't been mentioned.

Padgett: the L67 balancer pulled itself onto the crank when I tightened the bolt. There was some resistance, unlike the fall on/fall off LN3 balancer, but it's tight and is in the proper position.

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HMMmmmmmm, Did you get some RED engine paint while you were at the parts store ordering your gasket set? Plenty of time to prep/paint parts while waiting for gaskets!

If not, consider getting some gold or silver super-flake and use a transluscent, or candy red over it to make the color "POP". Gold flake base gives a crimson-like red, and silver makes for a loud scarlet red.

CAN OF LIQUID SANDPAPER - $6.00

TWO CANS OF PAINT - $12.00

TWO CANS COCA-COLA - $1.00

COLOR-MATCHED CUSTOM SUPERCHARGER & VALVE COVERS ON YOUR ONE-OF-A-KIND S/C REATTA WITH ON-BOARD PC INSTALLED IN DASH - PRICELESS!!!!!!

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Just a quick thought on the different diamenters. Yes rotational speed would vary the farther away from the center you went, but the trigger is activating when it's its field is interupted, so long as the air gap is correct it doesn't mind what speed its being disturbed at.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While you have it off, you could paint it (and the valve covers) RED!!!!

They should be dry by tomorrow, and you're not busy getting ED08 readings now.

Once you have it together, y'know it'll never get COLORIZED! </div></div>

This is the exact opposite way I do conversions. I try to make them as OE looking as possible. The only things that get attention on my Trofeo are the ignition coils (Vortec coil-per-cylinder) and the K&N cone air filter. The latter will go away as soon as I get around to building a real airbox.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While you have it off, you could paint it (and the valve covers) RED!!!!

They should be dry by tomorrow, and you're not busy getting ED08 readings now.

Once you have it together, y'know it'll never get COLORIZED! </div></div>

This is the exact opposite way I do conversions. I try to make them as OE looking as possible. The only things that get attention on my Trofeo are the ignition coils (Vortec coil-per-cylinder) and the K&N cone air filter. The latter will go away as soon as I get around to building a real airbox. </div></div>

So how did you get coil per cylinder to work with the Trofeo ECM?

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I try to make them as OE looking as possible. </div></div>

... and Philip may agree! He has'nt shown interest in colorizing as of yet, but it does add that extra degree of "cool" to Greg Ross' S/C setup! cool.gif

And this is not an OEM engine option, but a true custom build-up, even if it uses OEM parts from other GM products, might as well LOOK the part! wink.gif

Okay, I'll shut-up now, crazy.gif y'all have enough to deal with.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Location location $8E78 is going to be a constant at offset $E78 in the 32k prom contents. The ECM just loads the prom in the upper half of 64k (16 bit) memory. This is because the processor always starts by executing the instruction (usually a jmp) found at the top of memory.</div></div>

Sorry, I should have dumped the "8" when I put that in there. I just copied it from my mess of notes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AFAIK the early (92-93) L-67 was the only one that used the 26C256 PROM, later versions used a 27C512 (double the memory so offsets are different). Does someone have the stock bin I can look at ?</div></div>

I'll email one to you. Seems I can't upload .bin's to the forum...

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I would go ahead and paint the S/C and the valve covers, but yeah, we do have a lot more on our hands right now tongue.gif. I like customizing as long as it's tasteful (I consider this to be tasteful).

But go fast first. Look good later.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

LV8 really isn't a table, it's a calculation based on MAF and RPM. Adjusting the MAF tables adjusts LV8.</div></div>

I was under the impression that there is "something" in the programming that tells the ECM how to assign LV8 readings. If it isn't a table, is there a constant? (my information on $5B1 and $5B2's is quite limited, so any info you can provide would be quite helpful).</div></div>

LV16 is a 16-bit load variable based on mass airflow. It is used in the calculation of the base pulse width and is determined by grams of air/cylinder.

LV8 is a scaled version of LV16 and is the measurement of engine load used by the fuel algorithm. It is expressed as:

LV8 = 256(grams of air/cylinder)(Load Variable Scaling Factor)

There's not really a constant like you think of in the Tunercat program, but a factor. It's not something I've found necessary to adjust (or even bother to find in the code).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I mentioned earlier, my information on the earlier 3800 computers is quite limited. TrofeoSC, I noticed you have reset the scalar on your $5B2 MAF tables so you could attain 256 gm/sec flow rates (stock maxes out at about 171 gm/sec), do you have a "good" commented disassembly of the $5B2 or $5B1 codes you would be willing to share? Please understand I don't want to take your hard work and use it without giving you due credit and compensation. However, any light you can shed on this issue will help the Reatta community. </div></div>

I don't really have a 'good' commented disassembly, mostly a scattering of notes, some of which I had to go digging for to answer this post (like the LV8 formula). The SC_5B2.tdf is something I made several years ago when I did the first conversion on the Trofeo.

I wish the Trofeo community had as much interest in performance as the Reatta community. AFIK, there's only two properly done Trofeo supercharged conversions. By properly, I mean that the car functions just like it was stock, including all EEC and diagnostic controls.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup. Ryan provided me the L67 service manual section with the specs. </div></div>

When installing the superchargers, I do it in a 3 step torque pattern rather than just jumping to the full spec.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The aluminum is in excellent shape. Should I use nothing at all on the gasket? </div></div>

GM specifies not using sealant on the gaskets. Be sure your surfaces are very clean. I usually wipe them off with a good brake cleaner (like 3M) before laying the gaskets in place.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And still have a desire to replace the odo reading on the dash with two digits of oil pressure, a space, and three digits of coolant temp. when the engine is running. </div></div>

That would be neat! I'm not too familiar with the Reatta touch screen, but on the Trofeo we have an ENGINE DATA page that shows digital RPM, oil pressure, coolant temp and volts. This is all from the data stream.

To do something like you're thinking of, would require hacking the BCM. I'd be all for that, as I think a digital boost gauge in place of the odometer reading would be neat!

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I got the supercharger back on. I used some Mar-Hyde Total Prep and got the surfaces near sterile.

I'm gonna go back out, and I should be back later with those ED08 readings that Padgett requested.

Ryan: no hurry or pressure, but will I have the chips by this weekend?

A digital boost gauge on the ECC would be crazy-awesome. If you read the press release on the prototype turbo Reatta cars, there is mention of a "graphical" and "digital" display of the boost, which I assume was on the ECC.

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I've got it all back together, but can't quite get it started. It will sputter and sometimes will almost sputter enough to keep itself going without the starter motor turning.

I can't think of anything I forgot to plug in or that I did wrong, but I'm gonna cool off and let it sit in my mind overnight.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But go fast first. Look good later. </div></div>

Yeah, I know what you mean, FEED the GOFAST, or it will FEED ON YOU!!!

My GOFAST likes windows DOWN!!!

Actually, he prefers the top DOWN!!!

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how did you get coil per cylinder to work with the Trofeo ECM? </div></div>

FAST makes a product called 'eDist' that's used for aftermarket ECM's with the LS1 engines. Through a few creative modifications, it can be made to work with the 8253 ECM.

Until you've played with "smart coils" you just don't realize how weak DIS is.

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