Supercharging (this time, it's real)

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Willren has been hating on me ever since...GP or something

[gmtuners.com]

I agree with Greg's opinion here. You can't always trust what you are told on a forum on the web. By no means is this a bash against any specific person nor the Bonneville forum, but most of these people don't have the proper training and education to back up their "advice".

With that being said; here is the deal with the oil cooler. Yes, the older stock SC engines came with them. But have that guy explain to you why the newer Series II engines didn't have them and they put out more power??? I will tell you why. Oil technology has come a long way since 1992-95. Yes, conventional dino motor oil will break down quickly in high stress and heat environments, and if you were running a conventional motor oil from the 92-95 era, I would recommend using an oil cooler as well. But running Mobil 1, you don't need a cooler. The Corvette used to come from the factory with an oil cooler and when they switched to using Mobil 1 in the LT1 engines, GM published a notice explaining that the cooler was no longer needed because the full synthetic oil doesn't break down as quickly in high stress and heat environments. But you don't even have to go that far... Your oil pressure gauge is the best indicator of your oil's condition.

Now as far as the trans cooler is concerned... Yes, the stock radiator has "restrictors" in it where the lines hook up. However, this factory cooler was designed to work with the trans you are running so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Not all of the fluid that goes thru the pump in the trans goes thru the cooler in the radiator; it's more complicated than that in how the cooling system works in the auto trans. What I can tell you is you shouldn't run just an external cooler. The reason why is because of two reasons. The first is, without a trans fluid temp gauge, you have no idea how hot your trans fluid is getting. If your external (only) cooler is not big enough, you could easily overheat the trans. The factory cooler was designed to cool the stock transmission using the stock engine in the hottest possible environment. The addition of an external cooler will help your trans fluid temps run cooler than stock by supplimenting the stock auto trans fluid cooling system. The second reason why you should not just replace the stock radiator cooler with an external cooler is because the auto trans fluid cooling system relies on the radiator cooling system to warm up the trans fluid during colder ambient temperature conditions. It is possible to overcool transmission fluid which will result in the trans fluid not running at the proper operating temperature for the best performance. Fluids like your engine oil and transmission fluid need to be working at a certain temperature in order to lubricate and clean internal components properly. Too cold of fluid temps will not allow these fluids to work as-designed.

If it puts your mind at ease, Philip, I am not running an oil cooler on my 3800 Series II Turbocharged engine. But I do run Mobil 1. I know for a fact my engine sees a lot more stress than yours does plus my turbo heats up the oil more than what your car sees. I am also running the auto trans fluid cooling circuit thru my stock Fiero radiator then then thru an external cooler before it returns to the 4T60-E trans. I have been running my car this way for over three years and 20,000 miles now with no problems.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thank you. GM performance is your livelyhood.

The thing the dealer ordered wasn't the right one...it was the electric boost dumper, which I don't even use. It took him a while to find the real thing I need, but is $300+ <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. I'll seek a used one. Any opinions on this Ryan? Or anyone else.

[2seater]

I've seen the same comments Ryan and Philip mention. It is unfortunate but a lot of forums go down a path that gets narrower in the point of view over time, sorta the "not invented here" mentality. Yes, cautions about a procedure can be valid, but after a while it becomes don't do this or that, without foundation other than opinion. Yes, adding boost to an engine that wasn't designed for it can shorten the life, but this is done all the time through numerous kits for many makes of engine. The key is to be smart and use discretion in how it is used. So many make the assumption the car will be driven hard all the time, and that simply isn't true for most of us. If you don't do full throttle starts and such in stock condition, what would cause you to do so after modification? It is true the reason the performance boost was undertaken in the first place is to enjoy the increased performance, but at least in my case, the car spends most of the time poking along at normal speeds and acceleration levels (well maybe a little more <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but you have to understand that if you break it, you will have to fix it, again.

I did add an oil and trans. cooler to my setup. I cannot judge the benefit of the engine oil cooler. It will drop oil pressure simply through friction loss, and I find the synthetic oil "likes" to be a bit hotter for best oil pressure. Seems counterintuitive, but that is what my oil pressure gauge indicates. That cooler may go away. As for the trans. cooler, I decided to make wye connections and feed both the stock and additional cooler in parallel.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thanks for the support 2seater. Sometimes, as F14 once said, you gotta "screw it and do it".

I replaced the L67's boost dump solenoid with a hose and ran a larger hose from the actuator to the vacuum "tree". I think it feels better and when revving it with the hood open watching it, it seems to be more responsive (as in the arm moving and dumping the wastegate). There's a thread on making the actuator more repsonsive, and maybe that's what I need to do. Will keep you guys posted.

I love seeing innovation with our cars. It doesn't matter if its sequential tail lights, deleting the rub strip, lowering, using a Riviera front clip...nobody would ever figure anything new out if they didn't go ahead and try it, even with a lot of negative criticism. Whether it works right, looks good, whatever, it doesn't matter. What matters is that it has been proven.

[gmtuners.com]

I agree with everything 2seater said. I must get about 20 emails a week specifically asking about putting a turbo or supercharger on a naturally asperated engine. Because I run a business, I can't simply go around telling people they can get away with doing that without concequences. Therefore, my email responses to such questions usually turn out to be a couple of pages long explaining that it can be done, but there are drawbacks to durability and reliability. Like 2seater said, he doesn't beat on his car much and someone like him would probably never suffer an engine failure due to the boost. But the problem is there are a lot of people out there that like to beat the living snot out of their cars on a daily basis so, when giving advice, those people's habits have to be taken into account.

Getting back to Phil's problem; I have never tried running any sort of boost controllers on these engines so I can't really comment on it -- other than to say I understand how the boost control system works on these engines and I can see how a boost controller would work properly if the design was compatible and it was hooked up right. Most manual boost controllers consist of nothing more than some parts from a hardware store -- a couple of hose nipples, pipe T, spring, ball bearing, and bolt. That's pretty much it. There are electronic ones out there that work off of "active feedback" which use a MAP sensor to monitor actual boost, but these are very expensive from what I have seen.

-ryan

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Ryan: I'm not sure if you call it the "boost controller" but it's something like that. It's stock and all. It's the black metal cylinder thing with a couple vacuum lines. When revved, a little rod coming out of it is moved upward which controls the bypass gate in the S/C.

[gmtuners.com]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ryan: I'm not sure if you call it the "boost controller" but it's something like that. It's stock and all. It's the black metal cylinder thing with a couple vacuum lines. When revved, a little rod coming out of it is moved upward which controls the bypass gate in the S/C. </div></div>

Oh ok, you are talking about the supercharger bypass actuator. What happened to yours? Did it break? The actuator does not normally control boost level. It's function is to open the bypass valve at low load levels to reduce stress on the supercharger and increase gas mileage. I know some people on the net are removing or modifying these in order to supposidly make the boost come on quicker, but the problem with doing that is you will put more stress on the SC when you don't need it which will cause heat to build up among other things.

I would suggest you leave the boost control actuator alone -- and hooked up as it was stock. You don't need the electrical boost solenoid hooked up to it because that was only used by the computer to prevent boost in reverse gear and reduce boost when the car was nearing the top speed limiter. Now if you desire lower than factory boost levels, one could hook up a boost controller like one I described earlier but this is really not the right way to keep the boost down. The right way to lower boost would be by installing a larger SC pulley.

-ryan

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thanks Ryan. I guess that is the better way to describe it and being the bypass thingy. It seems to be moving and all, but I'm getting little boost. When I disconnected the one vacuum line, I got full boost (just tried it once), so I know the S/C is okay. It just seems I'm still in bypass when I need boost

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I thought I'd give this a refreshing.

I've driven about 12k miles with the supercharged LN3. The engine and transmission have almost 165k total miles. I have not had any significant issues since the installation.

Yesterday, I finally got around to mailing out a sample of my used motor oil to Blackstone Labs. They do oil analysis and will report back to me what's going on inside, along with how much "goodies" are still left in my oil, which may allow me to run it a bit longer. Will post back with the results. I've been curious as to know how the engine's internals are wearing with the supercharger. I've been using Ac Delco PF52 filters and Mobil 1 10w30, changing every 5k miles.

I still want to get a real K&N air filter. My cheap ricey APC filter may be restrictive. The schedule 30 3'' PVC pipe I used to extend the intake gets too hot from the engine and gets deformed . Several times, I'v found that intake to have fallen off from the throttle body because of this. I may end up using schedule 80 or something (remember, we're plumbers). Most peformance intakes use metal but it would seem to me like it would soak up too much engine heat.

The serpentine belt that drives the supercharger, among other things, wore prematurely because I removed a washer-like device that goes between the supercharger assembly and the tensioner assembly. This caused a slight misalignment issue and wore a cord off of the belt <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The boost/bypass control actuator (aka BCA) on the S/C wore out. This was original to the L67 though. It's a vacuum operated canister with a piston and rod which controls the bypass valve. The seal around my shaft was worn and not holding vacuum. The dealer wanted over $300 for this goofy little thing. GMpartsdirect wanted half of that, which was still over $100. Lastly, I contacted Magnuson, which is the only rebuilder of superchargers approved by GM/Eaton. They wanted $40 <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. I promptly ordered one, and all is well.

I'm still planning on adding a boost gauge. Maybe2fast (Don) found that pillar gauge pods intended for a Dodge Neon SRT4 fit almost perfectly to the Reatta pillar. My cousin sells performance parts for Neons, so I'll source a pod from him and get some SEM paint to match my Saddle interior. Cyberdyne makes digital gauges I like (in green) which I think will match the rest of my '89 instrumenation.

Though not all that necessary, IMO, I think I'll add a transmission temperature and an air/fuel ratio gauge as well.

Because of the different characteristics of the L67 hardware, the ECC doesn't report back accurate gas mileage (not unusual to see it read 32 mpg average). However, I figured out ith long distance freeway driving, mileage is close to a stock Reatta, 25-28 mpg. I do have to use 92-93 octane fuel which one may complain about in this day and age, but figured out, that's maybe $2 more per fill up. I have tried running 89 octane stuff but I can feel the performance difference. Knock/pre ignition happens, which is detected by the knock sensor, and the ECM retards timing to keep it under control. Didn't think of checking the knock counts in Diagnostic Mode which I probably should have done.

Further development may include me swapping in a 6 speed manual transmission from a Pontiac G6. The 3900 uses the same transmission pattern and I've spoken with a few smart GM guys, and they think it'll work. I will have to get the clutch and brake pedal assemblies, shifter/linkages, and figure out the clutch and flywheel, but I don't think it would be too difficult. If I do go through with it, I will document it as I have with this thread.

My car will be at the Reatta Homecoming, but Jessica plans on being there with it, so I dunno if I'll be able to open the hood for you guys... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Guest CL_Reatta]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I still want to get a real K&N air filter. My cheap ricey APC filter may be restrictive. The schedule 30 3'' PVC pipe I used to extend the intake gets too hot from the engine and gets deformed . Several times, I'v found that intake to have fallen off from the throttle body because of this. I may end up using schedule 80 or something (remember, we're plumbers). Most peformance intakes use metal but it would seem to me like it would soak up too much engine heat.

</div></div>

Wrap the PVC in insulating foil from Lowe's/home depot using the curl method. the thinner stuff is fine and less bulky then the 1 inch thick stuff. cut thin strips of the insulating foil to put on top of the spits of the first layer of foil. then seal it off with severe weather tape (the high quality stuff that's good for 260 degrees +) nothing's melted on me yet, and it looks better then a piece of PVC attached to a filter.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Ah yes, didn't think of that

[Guest CL_Reatta]

Does it look stupid?, yes....does it look kinda cheap?, yes.....does it look like it's useless?, yes, but by looking at the MAT temperature reading's from before after then after even more additions I can say that it works, anyways thats what my PVC looks like after putting all the insulation on it. (less all of the enclosures and extra hoses of course) [color:"blue"]see attached

[Guest F14CRAZY]

you're learning quick, aren't you

[Guest CL_Reatta]

Yep, lol my goal by next summer is to learn how to put a 8.3 Viper V-10 into a Reatta <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest F14CRAZY]

FWD fury.

You can make that much power from a 3800

[padgett]

Might put a transverse Viper in two side by side Reattas but would be hard to park.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thought I'd link the oil report to this thread

Blackstone Labs oil report. It's good. No abnormal wear

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

Bump just because all forgot thr trials he went throught doing it.

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

bump

[Guest crtnrds]

Daniel, my series II SC has 3" exhaust w/ hi flo cat to 2 1/2 " muffler, underdrive pulley on the SC. I am getting 31+ mpg around town and got 45mpg on a recent trip. My question... is that even possible?

[handmedownreatta]

i just wish that was possible.

[2seater]

Daniel, my series II SC has 3" exhaust w/ hi flo cat to 2 1/2 " muffler, underdrive pulley on the SC. I am getting 31+ mpg around town and got 45mpg on a recent trip. My question... is that even possible?

Hmm, that's hybrid territory. Extra batteries and an electric drive motor somewhere:) Is that indicated or actual computed from fuel usage vs actual miles traveled?

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

Daniel, my series II SC has 3" exhaust w/ hi flo cat to 2 1/2 " muffler, underdrive pulley on the SC. I am getting 31+ mpg around town and got 45mpg on a recent trip. My question... is that even possible?

Are you talking about a Reatta swap and the mpg from the car?

[Guest crtnrds]

Yes and yes. I do have 16" wheels but that would make the mileage reading lower.

I haven't checked milage against my GPS yet but the speedo reading is within 2 mph.

[Guest crtnrds]

I reset the "trip data" section on the CRT last fill up & when I checked it today after filling up it said I used only 7.5 gallons,but in fact I used 12.9 gallons. Any way to re calibrate?

Edited April 4, 2013 by crtnrds (see edit history)

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Believe the calculation is done in the BCM programming which hasn't been decoded yet, so it's not possible to make changes.

[Guest crtnrds]

Send it to Abby & McGee.

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

Send it to Abby & McGee.

who or what are they?

[ChrisWhewell]

That'd be the ultimate, an SC 3800 from say a 98 Riviera, and the 4t65E electronic trans.   Reminds me of my son's '93 olds with the 3.4L DOHC motor... That was a chevy engine and internal politics were that the trans that could handle all of what the 3.4L put out was not made available to olds, so they had to mess with the cam timing, detune the motors' output.   Restoring the timing to optimal, that 3.4 is capable of 300 HP, lots of guys have done it - think of it as a Quad4 motor with two more cylinders.   Overhead cams and 4-valves per cyl., factory redline was 7000.   People hate that motor, but a few of us realize its beauty, and its not that difficult to work on, just have to fabricate a couple special tools

 

It would be so cool if I could just drop an L67 and 4T65E into my Reatta, gawd imagine the power, I bet you'd do 0-60 in under 7 seconds, easy