F14CRAZY

Supercharging (this time, it's real)

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The tail pipe looks to be normal. I get some carbon when I run a finger inside, of course, but not an abnormal amount. I guess it's something that Ryan needs to analyze at the car.

Sorry I didn't have my camera with me, but they were bright red hot. I don't freak out at things, but if I did I would have.

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The hot exhaust headers seem to only come up when the engine is operated at or near WOT. I have idled it for long periods and held speed at 1500 rpm for a few minutes at a time before, and never saw them to be glowing hot or look abnormal.

I'm thinking that the restricted exhaust/cat may be the answer. I'll let you guys know soon. We've got some family from the Philippines over for a while, so things might be a little slow at times

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You two make a beautiful couple, Philip!!

Guess I'll have to tell my girls to keep looking for a son for me!

You'll be a hard act to follow, of course!!

I told the girls - Requirement #1 - he must like Reatta convertibles, (his own, not mine!!)

The rest is up to their own taste. But, I'll still have some input!

Based upon thier respective choices, there may a special "wedding gift" involved! </div></div>

F14, You may want to reconsider this offer. May not hurt to have a spare Reatta and/or parts available. grin.gif Seriously, looks like you have a slight setback, but between yourself & all the help you're getting, I'm sure you will be on the road soon. Good Luck.

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The injector pulse width seems very high for idle? Granted the fueling numbers look much better, but the fuel pressure change, or lack of it, when disconnecting the vacuum is definitely not right. Did you leave the vacuum line disconnected (plugged) and try the "rev test"? The pressure should not change, or change very little as the demand changes. The glowing manifolds are either retarded timing or dead lean, as suggested by others. The timing seems a bit low for idle, that is more like the timing for full load and boost, but it isn't retarded enough to account for the glowing pipes. If the O2 locked around .67 that's awfully lean for a high load, but I don't think your are loading the engine much unless it is in gear? Is it possible that the fuel rail is plugged or something? If the pump is new, and the filter clean, the pressure appears to be acting oddly. The pressure tap is right on the lower part of the regulator, right? If that is the case the fuel would have to pressurize the entire rail first and if the pressure remains constant with the vacuum disconnected, idle and revved, the rail "should" be flowing okay. I know you said you had the lines backwards once and reversed them. Is it possible they are connected backwards? The return line should be connected to the regulator. The rail pressure is regulated on the outlet end, not the inlet. Please disconnect both lines and place them in a small container to catch the fluid and momentarily make the pump run. Be careful of sparks and the force of the fuel flow. The pressure line must be connected to the non-regulator end of the rail. Ryan knows plenty when it comes to the tuning of the chip and it shouldn't be far enough off to cause these problems, and even though other problems may exist, like a massive vacuum leak, or plugged exhaust, it still sounds like a fuel delivery problem. The big bog sounds just like mine when the filter plugged. Do you have a vacuum gauge? A plugged exhaust will show up as a gradual decline in the vacuum reading at a steady elevated rpm, like below where the bog occurs.

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I had vacuum to the regulator connect when doing the rev test...I will try it again tomorrow with is disconnected.

True, engines in neutral really have no load on them (ie: being on the freeway with cruise control on, and then dropping it in neutral).

I suppose the fuel rail could be plugged, but when I removed the injectors on it to install new seals, residual gas in it flowed out freely. Possible, but very very unlikely.

I'm holed up the night. I wish I could go out and check, but I don't remember where the pressure test fitting is in relation to the regulator on the rail.

I know for sure, that I have the pressurized line from the pump connected to the fuel rail so that the pressure test fitting is closest to the pressurized gas...the fitting is between the injectors and the positive pressure line.

No vacuum leaks. I did mention what sounds like an awful leak at startup, but it goes away pretty soon after starting up.

I'll recheck the lines tomorrow morning. I'm sure going to feel like a dumbazz if they're connected wrong laugh.gif

So tomorrow...before I go to school I'll check the lines, cuz I can report back on the board during class. I have a half day tomorrow, so work can commence. I'll try the lines first. If it's not the lines, I'll go for diconnecting the cat (I don't have a vacuum gauge).

"Lean" means that there's too much gas and it's going out of the engine unburned, right?

When I changed out my pump yesterday I attached a hose to the positive pressure line under the hood (disconnected from fuel rail) and applied 12v to the green terminal and pumped it into my cans grin.gif. So, at least I'm certain of which line is the positive pressure one from the return line.

Thanks guys. The continuing saga...

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May I sugest the you try the old injectors as you seem to be

putting out the fire when you punch it. You need to lean it out.

grin.gif

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I had my truck parked outside this morning, so I didn't get to pass through the barn, and thus, I forgot to check the hoses on my fuel rail! But as I said, I have a half day, so I'll be able to check and let you guys know later this morning.

I will be not-pleased if I find I disconnected them wrong

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Checked my fuel lines...yes, they're the way they should be. Regulator end is connected to the return line.

I'll get to disconnecting the cat today

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Oooops. Sorry to Ryan and anyone thats read, but it is NOT the cat. I did more revving when I got it out of the garage and it isn't performing any better. Don't know what happened earlier...with the cat disconnected, I started it up, idled for a few seconds, and gave a few steps on the gas and it was fine.

False alarm. Our run-bad condition is not because of a clogged cat

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If you headers are red hot, you are burning gas outside of the cylinders,

which means you are flooding out the engine when you punch it. You need to

find away to cut back on the fuel supply.

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Philip: about this glowing exhaust issue... Is this the first time this has occurred? If so, something has changed since you swapped out plugs and wires (assuming that is the last thing you changed). Doublecheck your firing order.

I have only experienced glowing manifolds a couple of times over the years and the cause was incorrect ignition and/or cam timing or incorrect firing order (ign wire hookup). I haven't personally experienced a lean condition causing this to happen, at least not at very light loads. Furthermore, if the O2 voltage is still moving around and is not stuck rich or lean, than the ECM isn't having trouble adjusting the A/F ratio so I doubt that is the issue...assuming the O2 sensor is not sending a false signal to the ECM or being mislead by a misfire condition.

Again, I would try unhooking the cat just to see if there is any change with the bogging. As far as the stock LN3 exhaust manifolds being a restriction; the very first L67 swap I did a 1992 L67 was used which had a very poorly cut hole in the rear exhaust manifold for the exhaust dump (outlet to the cat). After discovering this poorly designed restriction, I promptly ported it out and performance increased. However, previous to that, no misfires or bogs were occuring because of it's presence. Therefore I am not inclined to believe this is causing the problem.

Philip, I'd advise you not try running the stock LN3 injectors (which flow 19 lb/hr) with the chip I have done for the SC because the L67 programming is set up for 29 lb injectors. However, you can try running the LN3 injectors if you reinstall a stock LN3 chip; although I strongly suggest you DO NOT attempt any boost operation. The LN3 programming will not give the now-supercharged engine enough fuel and will give it too much timing under boost which can result in serious damage.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haha! I got the cat sawzall-ed off and she revs up fine! We're calling about having a new cat installed </div></div>

Outstanding. Check with Jegs or Summit as you can get hi-flow cats for about $50 or so.

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This is not the first time I've seen glowing pipes. I did see it more than once, and was always after running near full throttle. I thought I posted it somewhere, but I checked and I didn't.

At first, after disconnecting the cat, I was convinced that it was the problem. But after a minute or so at idle, it got back to bogging again. I must have got a bit too excited there and wasn't paying attention.

One asked if the fuel pressure would shoot up when revved with the vacuum for the rail fuel removed...it behaves the same, whether connected or not.

I don't know what to try next. I'll re-recheck the ignition wires I guess.

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Sounds like the ECM learned something that was rong. What is the advance reading when you rev it please.

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I'll go back out in a few minutes and get the spark advance reading while bogging out.

I got thinking...while Ryan had my memcal, I reattached the battery and turned the ignition on to lower the passenger window. Would turning on the ECM without a memcal fry it?

I rechecked my spark plug wires and they're fine. My coil is a known-good Delco. The car ran the same with the supercharger and my previous Accel/Magnavox coil

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Ok. From an idle, with a lot of throttle applied and bogging, ED08, spark advance, is in the 4-7 range. There were a could very brief spikes up to 29, but for the most part, it was in the 4-7 range.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is nothing more difficult than trying to "tune-around" a mechanical or electrical issue that exists; especially on a project like this.

-ryan </div></div>

I think you guys that are ordering mail-order tunes should make a 'sticky' out of that one!

Ryan - I feel sorry for you guys that do this, spend hours or weeks helping someone (who sometimes is quite upset with you) only to find out there's a mechanical problem that's been giving them fits.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got out to check the engine (returned to idle) and found that the exhaust headers were glowing brightly blush.gif . I shut the system down. I don't think that's a very good thing. </div></div>

No, glowing is very bad. Can cause severe engine damage. All disclaimers apply.

Reading through this (I'm jumping in late in the game - someone told me to come here as you were having problems), you are using an L67 balancer on an LN3. Did you start it with this balancer on before tearing off the intake? I'm not sure if this is the case, but the timing signals at the crank sensor could possibly be different. An idea (should work, never tried it) would be to mark a point on the balancer for #1TDC and use a timing light to see if it somewhat agrees with the timing shown in the data stream. If it doesn't, then you probably have a signal problem to the ECM.

I've never tried something like you're doing (blower on LN3), but I can say for certain that your ECM will run a supercharged engine just fine. I've been running this ECM in my 88 Trofeo for several years, with Series1 and Series2 supercharged 3800's. It performs well, all accessories and touch screen fucntions work, drives like it's stock and still gets mid-20's MPGs even with my heavy foot.

If you want to see it, here it is:

www.theautoshop.net/SuperchargedTrofeo.htm

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The TDC test sounds interesting.

Thank you for posting. I've seen your site about the Trofeo before. Pretty impressive, especially with the VIC mess.

I didn't get to test run my LN3 as it was, but with the L67 balancer. Probably would have been a good thing to do. In the photos I posted though, you can see that the timing rings or whatever you call them are identical.

I picked up a spare ECM today that I'm going to try out for the hell of it (swapping the memcal, of course).

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"spark advance, is in the 4-7 range. There were a could very brief spikes up to 29, but for the most part, it was in the 4-7 range"

That sounds waaay retarded to me particularly for a premium fuel

engine, Would expect at least 35 degrees at a steady 2000 rpm -

wouldn't be any boost with no load. Suspect Ryan will want to

clock in here. Now that I think onnit you want more advance for

the same situation than a regular fuel car because premium burns

slower.

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I'll get the spark advance at 2k rpm tomorrow.

If the harmonic balancer and the timing rings were off, would it only affect acceleration? I ask because the possible timing offset makes sense, but would the engine still be able to run at steady RPM fine?

I tried another ECM with swapping my memcal, and it didn't change anything.

TrofeoSC: thank you for coming here and offering your assistance. We're after something. We just don't know what it is.

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I think you may be on to something. The windows in the shutter wheels wouldn't have to be off by much to radically change the timing, at least confuse the ECM. The timing is way retarded, for a light load situation, but that may not be valid either if the signal itself is offset? The timing mark idea sounds like a good one, although it will take some figuring. The light will flash twice normal speed with the type of ignition we have, but it should still be valid. The good thing is it won't matter if the piston is on compression or exhaust, just as high as it will get. A timing light with a built in advance/retard would allow reading the timing advance directly without offset marks. The ECM is certainly capable of running a low boost engine, mine has run over 20k miles, and economy is as you say. High loads are still a problem (knock), but below 5# of boost or so is handled just fine. My tuning with Ryan's help continues soon. It sounds like the fuel is connected correctly, but I am still wondering why the fuel pressure acts the same with or without vacuum, it shouldn't do that. I am almost positive the fuel rail is the same as the L27 n/a engine. It does look like it would be impossible to force fuel backwards through the regulator, the return passage from the regulator is quite small, around 3/16" and it would require a bunch of pressure on that small area to force it open, unless of course it is stuck open? The one I have is marked 3 bar on the outside of the little vacuum can part, so base fuel pressure should be around 43.5 psi if it is the same one. The one I have is from a junkyard manifold (TPI), and I pulled the regulator guts from the housing. It was full of crud, but it also contains a filter element to keep contamination from the actual internal workings, and that was clean. The odd thing when I tested it is the vacuum port will sometimes hold vacuum and sometimes not? Granted it is a junkyard part, but I wonder if there are possibly two problems in Philip's case?

Philip, can you get the part number from the injectors? If it is a Bosch, it will be marked on the side of the body where the electrical connection is. I just hope to confirm the injectors are what we think they are.

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My mechanic down the street has and can operate a timing light. I'll discuss the possible situation we have here.

But how could the balancer be slightly off? It's keyed. I found that it was difficult to put on because I couldn't get the key to match in the keyway right. I dremel'ed a tiny bit of the keyway to kind of guide the key in, when I spun it around and pushed on it a little. I guess it's possible the key could have been knocked out?

Do you think my fuel regulator may be clogged or broken? Are they cleanable or servicable? What exactly should my regulator be doing like when the vacuum line is disconnected?

I'll check for the injector part numbers and the readings at 2k rpm that Padgett requests tomorrow. I'll also use some Fernco bands and the metal part found on old Fernco couplers to reattached my cat (it was welded so I sawzall-ed). It awfully loud and I've heard of a lack of an exhaust system causing valve to warp from cooling too quickly.

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