Supercharging (this time, it's real)

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Just like Mario once said...

<span style="font-weight: bold">"The can't catch me! I got TPI"</span>

[Don B.]

EDBSO did I make this many postings when I Supercharged my Reatta?

I remember posting emissions testing results and 1/4 mile times.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Haha!

Don: what approach did you take in doing your car? Install a series 1 L67?

[Machiner 55]

Keep 'em comming Phil.

[Don B.]

Series I out of a Park Ave Ultra. Rebuilt Reatta trans, extented wires under hood, used Reatta computer. I put in a mechanical boost gauge, could not reprogram CRT for boost reading.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Day 8's progress (will post pix tomorrow)...

-got throttle body mounted. Attached harness connectors. Had to extend IAC harness about a foot due to the different location

-got s/c, water pump, air con belt on. Had to add a couple washers to one of the tensioner pulleys. It was out of alignment with the rest of the idlers (the others are ok)

-attached throttle linkages. When I get the memcal back I'll power up the system and make sure the TPS is within range

-finished coolant lines. Stock Reatta radiator hose worked fine by cutting like 1.5'' off each end.

-mounted alternator. I have to extend the power wire to it, will pick one up soon

Concerns: the stock air box sucks, so I'll get an APC cone filter or something. Been exchanging messages with 2seater on how to run the PCV system. Still have to mount power steering resevoir, but for now I'll use big azz zip ties and strap it to the coolant tank. The fluid resevoir is a really dumb shape and a PITA

Noticed the L67 MAF is the same model number as the stock Reatta's, so that's a good sign. IAC, TPS, MAF, and coolant sensor all plugged in without problems except for the short IAC harness.

For the PCV, I think I'm going to attach the line from the front valve cover to the intake somewhere so it pulls in filtered air, then the rear valve cover line will be attached to the unused brake booster line on my throttle body, with a PCV valve between the valve cover and the vacuum "tree"

I'm on top of this . Gimme a week...

[Guest MauiWowee]

Can you arrange some kind of a "real time" feed so we can all be witnesses to the initial firing up of your R14 monster?

(R14 Crazy, your new moniker)

[89REATTAJIM]

"Can you arrange some kind of a "real time" feed so we can all be witnesses to the initial firing up of your R14 monster?"

At least, send me a video tape of the big event & I will burn DVD's for interested parties.

Looks like you're well in command of the situation; good luck.

[Machiner 55]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> .... love that pipe wrench (or monkey wrench?) holding the hood up! </div></div>

In Great Britian, in the Kings English , it is commonly referred to as a "Mole"

[Machiner 55]

Pretty decent photos. What camera are you using?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Photo for day 8...

Today: bought a PCV valve (for the SSEi) and some flexible conduit for my harnesses

My camera is a 4 megapixel Canon Powershot A80. It's pretty nice. Most of the photos I've taken for this post are in the smallest and least quality setting ("normal" and 640x480) so the shots are like 80 kB.

[Guest MauiWowee]

Let's start a pool for how long his driver's license lasts!

[2seater]

Hmmm, it uses the same model MAF? In theory the MAF should max out somewhere around 220-225 hp., maybe a little less. I do know the MAF will generate higher frequencies than the stock ECM can read (I have tested it on the flow bench), so the ECM for that engine may have a larger range than ours? I have also found that the one sensor I have from a 3300 engine will read lower frequency at the same air flow by 15%-17%. In other words it can read higher air flows and still stay within the read range of the ECM. I have two 3800 sensors and they show a maximum variation of 5%. I will be very interested to see what sort of signal you get from the MAF when you get it running. Have you figured out how to operate the boost control?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Well, the numbers are the same, but I guess the revision number is different (the few numbers after the hyphen are one digit higher on the L67 MAF than the LN3 MAF). I'll report back with the exact part number tomorrow. Haven't figured out boost control yet...but in a message with Greg Ross, he said to stick with the vacuum gate for now. He added that Padgett attempted to program one in but it didn't work well to some extent.

No cool pix for day 9, cuz I kinda forgot to bring my camera out with me But, with yet another trip to Advance auto parts I ordered the belt that drives the alternator and p/s pump and picked up a 3'' APC cone filter. It's red . I also got a a mini filter for my PCV line, but ended up not using it...

I removed the stock air box, and my done filter will be attached to the throttle body by a 3'' Fernco coupler. Though probably not a perfect spot for "cold air" induction, it's still gonna be much better than the stock box. In the fernco I drilled a couple holes and inserted a small piece of vacuum tube and the intake air temp sensor (and RTVed around them). I'm going to pick up a 90 degree fitting for the run from the air cleaner to the front valve cover for PCV, and some more hose for that too.

[Guest spyhunter2k]

Keep the updates coming. Looking forward to seeing the entire consolidated "How-To" guide when you're finished.

Seth

[Guest F14CRAZY]

And oh yeah...I'm not trying to advertise for Advance or anything, but I got there a lot because they're pretty decent to deal with. We have a commercial account with them and I haven't figured it out yet but we get automatic discounts on some things (like the belt I ordered tonight got $5 off). And if the manager is there he'll normally discount me on some stuff. And they do things like we can dump 50 gallons of used oil cuz that's when we buy a few month's supply (with the plumbing vans, my vehicles, and my mom's Durango we do a lot of miles).

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Day 10 folks. Photos will follow later this evening.

I got a few things done...picked up the other serpentine belt and got that installed without issues. I've got the new air cleaner fitted along with the PCV system. It's complicated, but I think you guys will approve, and it should work perfectly fine.

The new air filter should be much better than the stock box, and hey, it's red and matching . That's like 20 hp right there. Not trying for the ricer look, but it's a lot cheaper than a K&N, which i think are overrated

[padgett]

Greg's car was reprogrammed for the Getrag which meant there was no TCC. I tried to use that line for boost control but never got it debugged.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thank you for the explaination Padgett. I didnt mean to talk you down or anything...but this forced induction business can get too complicated for me

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Day 11. Not much more to do. I do have a couple questions though...

In the middle of this pic, it looks like a vacuum line is missing and I can't figure out what to connect it to...suggestions?

And there's this one too. Do they need to be connected together by chance?

And my fancy red air filter

Is the wastegate solenoid thing the black plastic device that has a vacuum line running to it, that sits behind the supercharger housing? As this is not really used, do I leave it there or remove it?

I've got all the other vacuum lines figured out. The only major thing I have to do is hookup the power steering lines. The stock Reatta resevoir is an odd design and is hard to use as a remote unit, but I'm going to let it go until I think up something better. Some other little things to do, like put conduit over some harnesses, but no more major stuff. I plugged and capped the EGR outlet and the inlet on the supercharger housing.

Thanks for all the help. Ryan said he should be able to ship out my Memcal on monday, so initial startup should be pretty darn soon

[Guest joereatta]

AN TI CI PATION

[Guest Greg Ross]

The solinoid valve is the (puke) green module below the diaphram cylinder that has the open nipple on it. That opening should have a foam filter over it. If I remember correctly the open nipple on the tree off the S/C Housing I have plugged on mine. Anyone else with a 3800 S/C in their stable able to have a look and see how these vacuuum lines are plummed up? I'm about 4000 miles away from mine!

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Greg, I'm not good with this stuff...could you give me a more or less precise explaination of the location of the "puke green" thing?

And what's a diaphram anyway?

[Guest Greg Ross]

Attached Pic with markings is as follows;

#1 is the nipple that needs a filter, a piece of open cell foam.

#2 is the Boost Solinoid valve (the puke green) and

#3 is the Diaphram Cylinder. A diaphram, is the membrane inside that cylinder. When that solinoid is energized it allows air/ or vacuum to affect one side of the membrane, the linkage attached either opens or holds closed the boost butterfly inside the plenum. When you had the S/C off you must have seen the butterfly that allows boost to be dumped and recirculated back into the pump primary.

[Guest Greg Ross]

This pic has the arrow pointing to the nipple I think I have blocked. Where are you getting vacuum feed for the cruise control and the vacuum Resivoir (below your new Cone Filter)

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thank you for the exceptional explaintion. That cleared everything up. I did see the little valve when I had the s/c off.

The cruise control vacuum line is connected to the vacuum tree like it should. I'm using the Bonneville's tree.

[OldsTrofeo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm, it uses the same model MAF? In theory the MAF should max out somewhere around 220-225 hp., maybe a little less. I do know the MAF will generate higher frequencies than the stock ECM can read (I have tested it on the flow bench), so the ECM for that engine may have a larger range than ours? I have also found that the one sensor I have from a 3300 engine will read lower frequency at the same air flow by 15%-17%. In other words it can read higher air flows and still stay within the read range of the ECM. I have two 3800 sensors and they show a maximum variation of 5%. I will be very interested to see what sort of signal you get from the MAF when you get it running. Have you figured out how to operate the boost control? </div></div>

It's not the frequency that changes, in fact it would come as no great surprise that the L67 and LN3 MAF would interchange. The difference is in the volume of air that flows past it. Look at the size difference of the throttle bodies. The MAF is only measuring the amount of air flowing past it, so the calculation in the ECM needs to be adjusted to compensate for the larger volume of air <span style="font-style: italic">around</span> the MAF wires. This is the LN3's 170gm/sec vs. 255gm/sec of the L67.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense and I'll try to explain it better.

[OldsTrofeo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

In the middle of this pic, it looks like a vacuum line is missing and I can't figure out what to connect it to...suggestions?</div></div>

That fitting should have a little foam filter over it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the wastegate solenoid thing the black plastic device that has a vacuum line running to it, that sits behind the supercharger housing? As this is not really used, do I leave it there or remove it?</div></div>

That is your boost control valve, not a wastegate. The ECM you're using is not programmed for boost control, though with a supercharger I wouldn't consider this a big concern. Many of the SC3800 conversions run withh the bypass valve blocked closed without problems. I would suggest leaving it just like you have it now. This way you still have the vacuum bypass for light load conditions. Especially with your cone air filter, this will keep the cruising noise level down quite a bit. You'll have a big howl from the blower at WOT!

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Day 12. I've got a cold so I haven't been out to do any real work. I did pick up a pack of those rubber vacuum line caps, but what should I do about the foam thing? Can I improvise on this? The dude at Advance didn't know of such a fitting.

[2seater]

Trofeo, I think I understand the point you are trying to get across. The only way I can see the bypass theory would be true is if the main straight through passage is larger, and it may be. The Hitachi MAF passage for the actual sensor is tied into the main passage and all air must pass through the throttle body. From the flow bench testing I am doing, the throttle body itself make essentially zero difference in the air flow through the MAF. I have tested it by itself, attached to the throttle body and with and without the screen. The screen does decrease total flow by 3%-5% in the upper flow range. It would make a difference if the T/B was smaller. I am curious as to the internal passage sizes for the L67 MAF. If they are the same as the LN3, the air flow vs frequency has to be the same, unless the sensor itself is different. I will see if I can find the frequency response is supposed to be for the L67 MAF.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Day 13. Almost 2 weeks...

Today I finished the poewr steering resevoir. For now it's strapped to the coolant tank.

Reattached the mini shock absorber and bracket near the harmonic balancer

Fitted the vacuum line cap

Pretty much, I just need a can of premium fuel and my memcal back

[2seater]

I found my previous statement about the size of the MAF passages being the only variable,(aside from the sensor itself), is not correct . I found the frequency output vs the actual air flow can be manipulated by changing the size of slot from the sensor passage where it connects to the main passage. Decreasing the length of the slot (with foil tape for testing) lowered the frequency output at the same volume of flow. For example; in stock form, the MAF flows 151 cfm @ 8kHz. By covering approx. 1/2 of the slot, the air flow rate is 210 cfm @ 8 kHz. The bypass rate can be changed fairly easily, although calibration would be needed to match the new flow rate to the ECM. It appears the stock slot length is about 4 cm, maybe the L67 MAF slot length is different?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

By the slot, do you mean the hole that the part of the MAF with the tiny wires goes into?

[Guest Greg Ross]

Philip,

You've done quite well on your schedule, how's the budget holding up?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

A bit over, but not overly over. I'll add up the receipts this afternoon

[sahein]

I wonder if you can find the correct combination of larger injectors and slot covering so as to avoid the necessity of have to tweak the ecm.

I used the larger later throttle body and injectors. I am hoping this works.

I just connected the original egr via copper 1/2" tubing street els. I used silver solder to join them and then wrapped it with metal tape.

The issue that I am now stuck on is how to connect the fuel lines to the new fuel manifold.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

You doing this too?

[OldsTrofeo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trofeo, I think I understand the point you are trying to get across. The only way I can see the bypass theory would be true is if the main straight through passage is larger, and it may be. The Hitachi MAF passage for the actual sensor is tied into the main passage and all air must pass through the throttle body. From the flow bench testing I am doing, the throttle body itself make essentially zero difference in the air flow through the MAF. I have tested it by itself, attached to the throttle body and with and without the screen. The screen does decrease total flow by 3%-5% in the upper flow range. It would make a difference if the T/B was smaller. I am curious as to the internal passage sizes for the L67 MAF. If they are the same as the LN3, the air flow vs frequency has to be the same, unless the sensor itself is different. I will see if I can find the frequency response is supposed to be for the L67 MAF. </div></div>

It's not the internal passage where the MAF sensor wires are that I'm referring to. It's the overall internal diameter of the throttle body itself. It's quite a bit larger. I don't have any handy to measure, but if you could get them side by side, you'll see the difference. The MAF sensor can only calculate the air that passes over the wires, it doesn't know the amount that is capable of flowing through the throttle body. That's where the MAF tables in the ECM's code comes in. When the engineers wrote the code, they knew how much air was flowing into the throttle body for a specific frequency response from the MAF. If you look at the code for the LN3, the MAF tables top out at 170gm/sec, while the L67 ends at 255gm/sec.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'bypass theory'. The MAF doesn't bypass air, it just sits in the air stream and calculates the air crossing the wires. Unlike the old 'air door' systems, it can't actually see the total volume of air, just what is crossing the wires.

[OldsTrofeo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if you can find the correct combination of larger injectors and slot covering so as to avoid the necessity of have to tweak the ecm.

I used the larger later throttle body and injectors. I am hoping this works.

I just connected the original egr via copper 1/2" tubing street els. I used silver solder to join them and then wrapped it with metal tape.

The issue that I am now stuck on is how to connect the fuel lines to the new fuel manifold. </div></div>

This is a very poor way to do it from a driveability standpoint. When adding this much air under pressure, not only will fueling be a concern but ignition timing as well. You might get it to run, but it would never be right.

[sahein]

I think that the fueling has a chance to work but the timing will be an issue.