1908 or 1910 model 10 buick toy tonneau

[Guest edanielson]

I am restoring a model 10 buick toy tonneau with a 4 cylinder engine. I cannot find any serial number on the the body or frame. The number 15752 is stamped on the crankcase, crankshaft, connecting rods and pistons. I have been told that the car is a 1910, but I am not so sure. The original owners had 1908 painted on the hood and on the sides of the rear seat. Under a layer of white paint on the wood side panels just below the front seat, the words, "This car was driven 15,000 miles" is stenciled on both side panels.

As far as I can tell the car was owned for a very long time by the Norem family of Ottawa, IL. They were long time Buick dealers in Ottawa. They sold the agency and about 5 antique Buick cars(including this one) to a local car dealer several years ago. I bought the car from from the local car dealer about 2 years ago. When the local car dealer bought the Buick agency from Mr. Norem, he was told to never, ever sell this Buick Model 10 back to General Motors, under any circumstances.

The dealer did not know why Mr. Norem was so adamant about this and I do not know either. Perhaps there was some kind of dipute between GM and Mr. Norem over this car.

With the "This car was driven 15000 miles" stenciled on the side panels and 1908 painted on the hood and sides of the rear seat, could this have been some sort of test or promotional car that was once owned by Buick or GM? Or could it have been a promotional car owned by the Norems?

Also, I wonder what color(s) this car was originally. It has several coats of white and off-white paint on it. Under the paint, the dashboard looks like it was just varnished-no paint.

How can I tell for sure what year this car is?

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Eric.

[Mark Shaw]

I suggest that you contact Dave Corbin: dfcorbin@corbin.com. He is the Buick authority on serial numbers and dates of Mfg for each model Buick.

Mark Shaw

Vanocouver, WA.

[Guest imported_Joe Kieliszek]

Hello,

My father's '10 toy tonneau has a sn of 13183 on the crankcase..

It has a couple of '09 features such as non-reinforced frame rails

alongside the motor and also the '09 spark/throttle controls on

the steering wheel. I suspect there were no exact cutoff dates

as to when upgraded design features were put into the designated

model year of car.

Thanks,

Joe Kieliszek

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear E Danielson: My friend Mark Shaw tipped me off to your question and I have this information for you from the Buick factory records compiled in 1943, which I have been working at for 4 years to computerize into a data base. Engine number 15752 in a Model 10 is for a 1910 Model 10, about 3600 numbers into a run of 11,000 cars for that model year. You should also be able to find a frame number on a small oval plate somewhere on the drivers side frame rail. but it can be tough to see. As a standard thing, because of Buick's shop and inventory practices, these two numbers are different but usually close together. From that engine number, I would expect to find a frame number between 13,500 and 17,500, which would enable me to give you a better estimate of when it was built. I hope this helps you. Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Joe Kieliszek:

I happened to see your comments about different features being introduced at different times on early Buicks, which is indeed true. However, it's even worse than that. Based on actual Buick records from the Buick plant in Jackson, Michigan, for the 1907 and 1908 Models D,H,K, and S, and from Flint factory records compiled in 1943, I can tell you that frame numbers that are sequential are assigned to DIFFERENT MODEL YEARS and then go back to the original model year's sequence. About 35 years ago, a great Buick historian named Dave Chambers wrote some excellent articles about this mess in Automobile Quarterly. I have been able to confirm and extend his findings from my own research into this subject

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest imported_Joe Kieliszek]

Hello,

Thanks for the info concerning serial numbers, Dave; Unfortunetly,

the tag on my father's 10 frame must have been removed or lost

at some point. My model 14 still has its tag on the rear of the

frame (3252).

Thanks again,

Joe

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Joe:

I saw your post about your Model 14 having a frame number of 3252. This makes it the 48th from last Model 14 built, as the frame numbers for 1911 Model 14's ran from 2049 to 3300. 1910's ran from 1 to 2048 as a frame number.

I would be VERY interested to know the engine number on your car, as this is one of the few weak spots in my data. Two possibilities exist, based on Buick factory practice at the time. The first (and most likely, in my estimation) is that Buick gave the Model 14 engines their own series of engine numbers, which would make an engine number between 3100 and 3300 the likely choice. The other possibility is that Buick continued to use the engine numbers from the previous 2 cylinder run that started in 1904 and ran to 25203 in the 1910 model F cars. So far, I suspect that only the 1911-1912 2A trucks continued this engine number series, but a confirmation of this point, using your car would be a great addition to my research. The engine number is usually stamped on the flywheel of the 2 cylinder engines in the Model F engines, but I am unsure where it might be on a Model 14. Any help you can give on this little fine historical point would be extremely useful.

Thanks, Dave Corbin

[Guest imported_Joe Kieliszek]

Hi Dave,

The only data stamped on the flywheel of my 14 are the points at

which the intake/exhaust valves are open or closed. There were no

other numbers other than "14B" anywhere on the engine, unfortunetly.

I didn't remove the old paint from the flywheel yet; there could

be some lightly stamped numbers somewhere on it yet..

Thanks,

Joe

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Joe:

Thanks for the reply! I will be very interested in what you find number-wise on the little 2 cylinder!

Regards, Dave Corbin