Repainting of HPOF Car--Puzzled (Again)

[Guest 70 Electra]

At Hershey last week, in the HPOF class, I was puzzled and surprised to see some vehicles that clearly had been treated to a full repaint and some obvious (to the naked eye) body filler.

No, these were not 50+ year old cars that had been partially or fully painted 40 years ago....IMHO these were what I'd term 'recent' (i.e. restoration) repaints. In one obvious case, a vehicle that should have had a painted pinstripe from the factory was wearing a decal stripe--if that doesn't make the repaint obvious, I don't know what does.

Now that the results are posted, I was even more surprised to see the vehicles in question recieved certification.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I realize the intent is to recognize "significant original features", and that this means not everything has to be original. </span> However, since the exterior of a car is the FIRST thing that is seen, wouldn't this receive special attention in judging?

My question to the HPOF judges out there: Is it the intent of the class to allow cars with full overall "modern" repaints to earn HPOF?

Greg

[novaman]

The HOPF guys look at the entire car. and it need to make a significant (high majority)percent of orginailty. If interior , chassis and engine compartment are pretty much untouched and it as new paint the paint isn't enough to take away from the orininality of all the other areas. With the interior , chassis and engine compartment that is 75% of the car. The exterior the remaining 25%. of that 25% paint is what percentage of: paint, antennas, body components, trim/striping/moldings/decals, door handles, grille, hood ormnament, lights-(headlamp/side parking/tail/driving/fog), mirrors, running boards, splash aprons, spoiler, windshield fram and windshield wipers. That's 14 areas looked at for the exterior which makes paint about 7% of the entire exterior. That's still putting the car (excluding the bondo issue)at 98%.

Some of the more learned judges on HPOF probably can do an even better job explaining. Hope this has been of some help.

[Guest my3buicks]

my 2 cents, if a car is fully repainted, it's no longer original, period!!! I noticed the same thing Greg last year when I HPOF'd the 69 Electra, I couldn't believe the amount of work and detailing(engine detail etc.) that was done to many of the cars, and yes, they certified. I think for the most part, the judges looked at the form you fill out, walk around the car, and move on. When the Electra was there, they didn't even glance inside, I could ahve had shag carpet and velour seats and it would not have been noticed. The class gets bigger and bigger each year so it's harder for the judges that are assigned this class to put the time into each car as they should. Need to be a few more added I am afraid.

[Guest BillP]

Why is it important to HPOF certify a car? serious question.

Does the marketplace genuinely care? Do people inside the hobby see the car differently?

Outside the hobby, seems people wouldn't understand or care. Or you could just tell them it's original and that's that. They'd probably have it appraised if buying anyway.

I had an original pre-war car at Warren this summer in class with other cars of its age and type for non-judging only. I just like for people to see the car. Several people came up to me and damn near demanded I take it to HPOF and get it certified. Me being me, the more they pushed, the more I declined.

Or is it a joiner sort of thing? Absolutely no offense intended.

[ExYankee]

It is <span style="font-weight: bold">H</span>istorical <span style="font-weight: bold">P</span>reservation <span style="font-weight: bold">O</span>rignal of <span style="font-weight: bold">F</span>eatures not the class of completely original cars.

Feature <span style="font-style: italic">n</span> 1: the shape or appearance of the face or its parts. 2: a part of the face 3: a prominent part or characteristic

The class is about perserving what features(parts of the car)that are still original.

I think what gets lost in this class is what the "original feature(s)" of that car is. John Q. Public is looking at the whole car being orginal when it could be like novaman's blue 4dr where the whole interior and whole chassis (except tires) is orginal and most of the engine compartment (mainly maintaince required him to replace some stuff). The exterior has had the top half repainted and that paint looks worse than the original on the bottom half.

If a car shouldn't be certified because of <span style="font-weight: bold">one</span> item, your example of paint, then it shouldn't be certified if it has non-orginal tires either. That's only <span style="font-weight: bold">one</span> item.

[Guest 70 Electra]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If a car shouldn't be certified because of <span style="font-weight: bold">one</span> item, your example of paint, then it shouldn't be certified if it has non-orginal tires either. That's only <span style="font-weight: bold">one</span> item. </div></div>

Come on...you've GOT to be kidding, right? You can't seriously equate the historical significance of original tires (a wear-out item that seldom lasted beyond 10-15,000 miles) with having original, factory-applied paint?

What is more historically significant (i.e. VALUABLE to club members seeking information on authenticity): A car with a Maaco paint job,body filler, and original tires, or a car with original paint and a set of correct reproduction tires? I'd guess that 99% of AACA members would pick the latter.

[Guest 70 Electra]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my 2 cents, if a car is fully repainted, it's no longer original, period!!! I noticed the same thing Greg last year when I HPOF'd the 69 Electra, I couldn't believe the amount of work and detailing(engine detail etc.) that was done to many of the cars, and yes, they certified. I think for the most part, the judges looked at the form you fill out, walk around the car, and move on. When the Electra was there, they didn't even glance inside, I could ahve had shag carpet and velour seats and it would not have been noticed. The class gets bigger and bigger each year so it's harder for the judges that are assigned this class to put the time into each car as they should. Need to be a few more added I am afraid. </div></div>

I have mixed feelings on this. Certainly if a car had to be "completely" original, the HPOF class would be pretty small. I recognize that, realistically, not every HPOF candidate is going to be original in every category. For example, there can be cars with complete repaints, bad bodywork, etc, that have beautiful original interiors. It is important to recognize and support these cars because correct original interiors are becoming very scarce as owners scramble to restore them with modern materials.

However, paint and bodywork are a significant item for the overall appearance of the car. <span style="font-weight: bold">Seems that if cars that are only partially original are to be considered, then the award should identify WHICH area is being recognized. </span>

As I understand it, currently HPOF is an "either/or" proposition. You either get the award, or you don't. Why not specify the area that is deemed HPOF?

For example, an HPOF for interior only, or HPOF for paint/chassis/interior, etc. To award an overall HPOF without specifying the areas of originality does the AACA and the owner a dis-service by watering down the credibility of the HPOF award.

[Guest my3buicks]

That is why in my opinion, HPOF needs to be taken as seriously as any other AACA award. It should be gone over closely and actually judged for the originality. They have been working on this in the BCA over the last few years to really go over the "Archival" cars to make sure they are truely deserving of that award. Points are deducted by the judges for non-original or redone features. If we did the various aspects of HPOF Interior/exterior etc, my complely restored 67 that is a BCA & AACA Senior car would qualify as the interior is still 100 % original. Interior pic attached.

[novaman]

The point I've been trying to make is that the paint is only part of the whole car. I've dug out my manual from my Hershey gear (still unpacking & drying out).

As for my statement: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If a car shouldn't be certified because of one item, your example of paint, then it shouldn't be certified if it has non-orginal tires either. </div></div> I was using judging points to determine what would be equal to wrong paint, in the case considering repaint as completly wrong.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Under exterior, Body:color Mandatory 10 point deduction.</span> (out of possible 100 points for exterior)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Under chassis, Tires (include Spares) 3ea (x5 =15 points)</span> In the judged classes that would be a car that has radials when it should have bis-ply.(out of possible 100 points for chassis)

If you don't like the tire example, let's try this one:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Under exterior, Light: Halogen Mandatory 10 point deduction.</span> The wrong headlights equal the wrong paint in points. (HPOF is 35 years old or older meaning for 2005, 1970 is cut off and at that time they didn't have Halogen lights)

I do agree that there should be something it indicate what part(s) of the car was certified as orginal.

[Tom M]

my3buicks,

Wow that interior looks great for being 100%. Thanks for sharing picture.

[Jay Wolf]

I see two purposes for HPOF.

1: To help preserve pristine originals.

2: To aid restorers with correct restorations.

If you look at the first one maybe a repaint car doesn?t belong.

But if you look at the second one, who cares. Sure a repainted car would not be any reference for where the pin stripping was out of the factory, but an original interior would be great reference regardless if the outside had been repainted.

The cars registered in HPOF become an enormous reference to correct restorations.

Hence the name

Historic Preservation of Original Features, not Historic Preservation of Original Vehicles.

Maybe that should be another class. HPOV

[Guest 70 Electra]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see two purposes for HPOF.

1: To help preserve pristine originals.

2: To aid restorers with correct restorations.</div></div>

Jay,

I support both purposes. However, item #2 cannot be effective unless there is some way to identify WHICH features are HPOF-certified. (For example, how do you know if you are looking at an original or repro interior? )

With all due respect to those that have worked on it, this seems to be a fundamental shortcoming in the HPOF system.

Is it practical to somehow identify the awards with the MAJOR areas in which a car was judged to have "original features"? (i.e. Chassis, Interior, Paint, Underhood) It seems this would add credibility to the process and better aid restorers that are looking for original examples. It would be cool to be able to query an AACA database to find which member(s) had a 19xx Wundercar with an original interior, for example.

Greg

[nearchoclatetown]

Greg, I think I understand and totally agree with your concept of HPOF. To me, the class should have modeled the Corvette's "survivor" class, left for TOTALLY original cars. A repaint, or rechrome, or interior should move it up to the Driver Participation Class, which would be for partially restored cars. The classes could both have judging for cleanliness and detail instead of just being "certified". The HPOF rules, as written, kind of give the impression of being a little bit pregnant.

[Jay Wolf]

I think you can contact the director of HPOF and request the owner's name of a (say)"1930 Nash" that has an interior certified with HPOF, then you can contact the owner and get pictures or whatever.

It may not show on the car or plaque but AACA know what is original and what is not.

I know a friend of mine was contact about the location of pinstripes on his HPOF Nash.

[Guest my3buicks]

Jay, I am not sure how accurate or correct that info would be - the information they have is probably the sheet that the "owner" fills out, not the judge. I am sure there are LOTS of fudging taking place on many cars when the onwers fill the form out. Plus, many owners really don't have a clue - they buy and old car they are told is original and believe it to be original and correct.

If HPOF is to be used as a guide for restorers and collectors of other similar vehicles, then I still believe they need to be original paint, etc. On top of that, the cars really need to be judged by the judges to verify the original features.

A repaint can completely change the character of a vehicle and even change major correctness items.

An example is pictured in the attached pic - when the trunk is raised on my 67, you will see the portion between the taillights is painted black - usually when these cars are repainted, you guessed it, that section is also painted body color, or if by chance it is actually repainted black, it gets taped off differently than the original. What then happens, the guy that is wanting to restore a 67 Buick looks at a repainted car in HPOF that has not been done correctly, then you get the snowball effect, another one gets done wrong. The guy gets nailed for it at a BCA National, he says " but I did it just like an AACA HPOF certified car that I used as a guide.

They need to be original!

[ExYankee]

The owners aren't filling out the papers any more. The judges are. Or at least that is was at the national meet I attended with an HPOF car last year. When I was looking at putting the car in a show in 2003 I was told I had to fill out the paperwork as to what was and wasn't orignal. Then in 2004 I was told I didn't need to fill it out, that the judges would take care of it.

[Guest my3buicks]

I had to fill out the 69 Electra's at Hershey 2004

[Jay Wolf]

It's be a while since I did any thing HPOF but I though both did.

The owner check what was original and right beside it the judges checked if they agreed. Look like in the judging manual they are still using the same form.

[Guest my3buicks]

Jay, that is probably how it is supposed top work, and if done properly that would work. But I can guarantee at Hersehy in 2004 NOTHING was checked by the judges, except that I had a fire extinguisher. I was shocked when the captain said thanks, I almost said "for what". Maybe I am just more used to regular class judging, but I am sure from the time the judges moved to my car and then moved to the next was a minute or less.

[Jay Wolf]

I wouldn't take this years judging at Hershey as the norm,

First they were 100 judges short and then with the rain, I bet they went to visual judging.

I remember at I think it was the last show ar Metropolis, I was told none of the cars were awarded HPOF after complaints of HPOF being judged too easy.

After doing some body repairs my 1916 Elgin was not given a repete HPOF at one show and it was HPOF driveline. The paint on my Elgin was done in the 40's it wasn't orginal anyway.

[novaman]

Hershey personaly isn't the norm when it isn't raining, much less when it is. It not bad to go out and judge a dozen or so cars. But what hurts is the times you end up with 18 to 20 plus cars which has happened to teams. These teams are likely to get "sloppy" in trying to get through all those cars. Plus trying to judge with cars parked tight and a large crowd don't help either.

I counted 159 cars registered for HPOF (don't know how many showed) and the HPOF judging team had 20 members (of which I don't know how many showed). If evry car and judgee showed up and they broke things into two man teams that's 15.9 cars per team. If they had 4 man teams that's 31.8 cars per team.

I was a team captain, short one team member, so I had to be captain and judge. With the no shows my team had 5 cars. I carry a clipboard that has a cover. When I turned in the sheets for my team, still, the ink was running and the papers were quite wet. Some others were having problems even writing on the sheets because of the rain.

Hopefully, if there are any cars out there that did get thier HPOF that should not have, at the next show they won't get recieve it again. Remember, HPOF cars can lose thier certifiction if deemed restored significantly retored at a later meet.

[Guest 1956Packard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the marketplace genuinely care? Do people inside the hobby see the car differently?

Outside the hobby, seems people wouldn't understand or care. Or you could just tell them it's original and that's that. They'd probably have it appraised if buying anyway. </div></div>

Does anyone want to tackle this? I prefer original cars and will pay more for them. Am I alone. What (if any) value does originality add??

[nearchoclatetown]

Does anyone want to tackle this? I prefer original cars and will pay more for them. Am I alone. What (if any) value does originality add??

If I'm understanding your statement correctly, this a no-brainer. Given 2 similar pointed cars, be it 200 or 350 points, the original car is always worth more at the auction block. Look at motorcycles, for example. An original '20's motorcycle with paint you can barely distinguish the color, worn off nickel, and dryrotted tires may be worth only $25000 while the exact same bike with $20000 worth of restoration is worth $30000.

[ted sweet]

my 66 newport has 60k miles on it. Has radial tires, newer belts, hoses, plug wires. Left rear qtr has been repainted. Remainder of paint is original but with dings and scarps. Vinyl top is original. Inserts in lower part of front seats has been replaced.remainder of interrior is original . Do i show this in HPOF or the driver class?

[Guest 1956Packard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the original car is always worth more at the auction block </div></div>

I suppose this isn't the place for this one but, I'm not sure my experiences hold confirm this. I find people are always more attracted to the one with the shiney paint and re-chromed bumpers. Then again I haven't been to an auction in a while(and generally don't sell my cars there)

[Guest my3buicks]

I think we are compairing pristine originals to redone cars not so so originals.

[nearchoclatetown]

Sorry, I thought my answer was clear, perhaps it was not. With both the restored car and original being in the same condition, be it a 200 point car or 350 point car or a pristine car, the original is worth more, IMO.

[ronbarn]

I am skipping to reply to Jay Wolf's input, so pardon me if some one else has said the same thing. The original intent of the HPOF was to accurately identify those portions of the car that were untouched original. The form initially was intended to be completed by the owner to identify what he/she thought was original. The HPOF "judges" were then supposed to verify the original areas claimed by the owner. This information would then be recorded on the form.

Now comes the good part - It was intended that the form identifying the original features would be placed on file at the AACA L&RC. That way a restorer would be able to contact the L&RC, find out who owned a vehicle of a certain make, model, year, etc., then contact the owner and use the information as a resource for proper restoration.

Now comes the bad part - It never happened! The ball was dropped! There were several attempts to get the envisioned procedure implemented, but they fell on deaf ears. By now the ears that these attempts fall on are too new to the program to have any recollection of what the HPOF program intent was initially.

Helping restorers is a wonderful concept, but there will have to be some procedural changes.

[novaman]

Ron , Thanks for your reply. I didn't realize about making the "database" for the libary. It was and still is a good idea. Hopefully someone will pick up that dropped ball upagain.

[Jay Wolf]

Ron

Thanks for the update, I never realized the database was never brought to fruition. I like you thought that was the main function when the class was discussed.

I know a friend of mine was contacted about his 30 Nash by a restorer on the pin stripping location around the windshield, but that car won a National HPOF award maybe that is where the restorer got his name.

It was good seeing you and Sally at Hershey as usual.

[Guest BruceW]

Ron,

Thank you for the information. I did not know this and I am sure many others did not. It answers a lot of questions.

Such a procedure would give the HPOF class a useful purpose and credence. A simple Access database updated periodically could be used to organize this valuable data and make queries simple to perform. It would have a lot of "catching up" in the beginning to be current but, if it is done properly, it would be a very useful tool to be added to the benefits available to the AACA members. I'd like to see such a database become a reality in the future.

[Guest my3buicks]

This data base would only be useful if the cars that are HPOF certified really are original - this would need to be a 2 step procedure, first and foremost, judge the cars properly so they ARE CERTIFIED as original, then 2nd, have the database set-up.

[JB-ed]

Perhaps a bit off subject, but as we are discussing problems or discrepancies in the certification of HPOF cars, would it not make sense to display the HPOFs in the same category as their restored versions? Then judges, who are looking for authenticity in the restored cars would be the best prepared to judge the authenticity of the HPOF ones? Otherwise how can one team of judges be experts on the whole gammut of cars displayed in HPOF? Or do I misunderstand this HPOF thing? It would be great for those of us researching a particular car to see them all together, judged, previously judged, and HPOF. Seems like it would also provide the most acurate judging of the HPOFs as well as the restored cars. Have a judging question about some engine-compartment detail of a restored car? Go look at the appropriate HPOF car for the answer.

[Guest BruceW]

If the database identifies the specific areas that are original, this would help with the case where all of the car is not completely original.. such as having a repaint.

If searching through the database finds that two 1954 Plymouth Savoys were certified as HPOF:

Car 1 located in Pa and has original interior, exterior trim, tires, wheels,and engine compartment.

Car 2 is located in Alabama and has original engine compartment, tires, wheels, paint and external trim.

If I'm looking for information on the original interior of a 1954 Plymouth Savoy, then I could contact the owner in Pa and try to get information, photos, etc. that I need. If I need to know how the front carpet clips into the floorboard or what type of piping material is used on the armrests, it won't matter to me if the car was repainted. If on the other hand, I do need information on original paint, then I would look up car 2.

Like wise, if a 1919 Reo underwent certification. The engine and paint are original. The interior is also original, except for one small doohickey on the steering wheel that broke and had to be replaced with a non-original part because original REO doohickeys are not available. The original upholstery, trim, and everything else inside the car could still be useful for a person restoring a 1919 Reo, except for the replaced doohickey. The fact that the doohickey was replaced should be noted in the database under the appropriate category.

A completely original car would be prefered, as that would answer more questions in one sweep, but that is sometimes not available. Cars that may be mostly original can still be a valuable resource for those areas that are original. Based on the stated original purpose of the class, I am assuming along with Jay that is why the certification is called Historic "Preservation of Original Features".. and not "Historic Preservation of Original Cars". Obviously, the more original, the better.

Please remember that my comments here pertain only to thoughts on the use of available information from the current certification process and its organization in a useful database for use by members. It is not meant to argue one way or the other in the certification of cars (e.g. the matter of repaints) or other areas of the process.

[Amphicar BUYER]

As the proud owner of a "SURVIVOR" (HPOF Certified) '63 Amphicar, I thought the HPOF class had credibility. Once I saw other HPOF cars with new paint and obvious repairs I changed my mind. I doubt I will seek more HPOF plaques for this reason. This negates the history of a true survivor car. There should be a survivor class which signifies the car is original with very specific and hard line criterias. Say like 90% of paint needs to be original or something of the like.

Somebody said tires are only 1 part, just as paint is one part. Well that is generalizing it to a fault. Tires are a wear part and only signify a small part of the entire assembly. Whereas the paint encompasses the entire car and is not a wear part. This is not apples and oranges, it's apples and roofing tiles. Certainly not a fair or a reasonable comparison.

For any class to have any weight, it must be based on facts. For a car to be certified as preserving original features but wearing new paint is a slap in the face (grill?) of every survivor car that has survived for years in it's factory applied dress. It also denies credibility and respect to HPOF certified cars.

A car with new paint probably has a significantly better quality finish than original so the true factory design and intent is lost. It's only original once!

[novaman]

John, I was the one that that made the comment about the tires. The point I was trying to get across an apparently failed is if you have a car that is basically untouched and the ONLY major thing done was it got new paint because the old paint was shot, it that really a good reason to totally not accept that car as an HPOF? What about all the good original information obtainable from the interior, engine compartment, and chassis. To not accept a car based on the sole fact of new paint is like taking your hunting dog and shooting it because there is a flea on it!! You'd be throwing out a perfectly good resource for other areas just because of the way it looks from 20 feet!

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...that is why the certification is called Historic "Preservation of Original Features".. and not "Historic Preservation of Original Cars".</div></div>

I think that this the point that keeps being missed. It is not about a whole car being original. It is about what is original that can be used by other hobbyists as a physical/visual reference when working on their cars.

We have a 1939 Dodge Deluxe four door sedan. Someone left the trunk lid up and over the years the floor of the trunk rotted away. Only the edges are left. Bill will need to see and get measurements of an original 1939 Dodge trunk floor to fabricate a correct one. Our first stop will be to find out if there is an HPOF 1939 Dodge with an original floor in the trunk. It will not matter to us if the car is repainted or has wrong tires on it.

[Guest my3buicks]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John, I was the one that that made the comment about the tires. The point I was trying to get across an apparently failed is if you have a car that is basically untouched and the ONLY major thing done was it got new paint because the old paint was shot, it that really a good reason to totally not accept that car as an HPOF? What about all the good original information obtainable from the interior, engine compartment, and chassis. To not accept a car based on the sole fact of new paint is like taking your hunting dog and shooting it because there is a flea on it!! You'd be throwing out a perfectly good resource for other areas just because of the way it looks from 20 feet! </div></div>

I say YES, a repaint is a GOOD reason to not accept a car into HPOF - as I stated earlier, a repaint can screw up many aspects of the cars originality, what if they paint the firewall and it should have been black, what if they painted the underside of the hood and it should have been black, a repaint has no business wearing an HPOF badge. Plus, let's face it, if it's been repainted chances are lots more has/have been done.

[ExYankee]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say YES, a repaint is a GOOD reason to not accept a car into HPOF - as I stated earlier, a repaint can screw up many aspects of the cars originality, what if they paint the firewall and it should have been black, what if they painted the underside of the hood and it should have been black, a repaint has no business wearing an HPOF badge. Plus, let's face it, if it's been repainted chances are lots more has/have been done.</div></div>

Let?s see?.

?a repaint <span style="font-weight: bold">can</span> screw up many aspects?? Maybe it did, maybe it didn?t

? <span style="font-weight: bold">what if</span> they paint the firewall?.? What if they didn?t?

? <span style="font-weight: bold">what if</span> they painted the underside of the hood?.? Again, what if they didn?t?

?if it's been repainted <span style="font-weight: bold">chances are</span> lots more has/have been done.? Then again there is the chance the paint died or peeled so they wanted new paint to fix the problem, and that's all that was done.

Sounds like we?re condemning cars on the "chances" of and "what ifs" and not on the individual facts of that car.

I believe that if the car simply had new paint on the exterior and that?s it, there shouldn?t be a problem with it in HPOF (although most likely not qualifying for HOPF in the exterior category). Now if the car has new exterior paint, new firewall paint, now you?re starting to talk about a car that has work done in two areas, therefore most likely not getting HPOF in the exterior and starting to get ?iffy? in the engine category.

My question to you would be, is if I took an all original car that has been sitting for years with a blown engine, and replaced the engine with a correct replacement, would you ban this car from the HPOF class?

[Guest my3buicks]

If you replaced it with a correct engine, how would anyone know? A paint job is an obvious fault that any judge worth their weight can tell. There are FAR to many beautiful truely original cars out there to muddy up the HPOF class with original wannabe's, if the judging of the HPOF cars was tougher it would weed out lots of the cars that people are trying to pass as original. Obviously this is an area the AACA needs to take a long hard look at and decide just what an HPOF car should stand for. As I stated earlier, the cars are not being judged properly in HPOF - it's little more than a quick walkaround and just taking the owners word for everything they put on their sheet as fact.