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Original 1957 Chevrolet 2 Dr. Hardtop questions on Judging


Andy 805
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I have an original 1957 Chevrolet 2 dr. hard top BelAir 2400 Series vin#VC-57L191778, My questions are: What tires are acceptable for judging? I have four (plus spare) Bias ply, original style white wall tires on vehicle. Can I replace these with Coker Radials and not lose points?

Are rear fender skirts acceptable, if original replacements for judging vehicle?

The car has spinner hub caps, which I believe were an option for this vehicle. Are they acceptable for judging vehicle?

Do spark plugs have to be of correct brand name for that year? If not what is acceptable for judging? Thank you for your help.

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Hi Andy, Welcome to the forum. Those are good questions to ask and often areas where car owners do make mistakes. I'll try and do them in the order you listed them. 1) With your tires the only tire that will recieve no deduction is the original size and type that was available as standard equipment or as optional equipment by the manufacturer. The brand name is not important. So using the modern "look a like" radials, while it may give you a better ride, would be a deduction in the AACA judging system. There are a few instances, and they are rather rare where the original tire size and type is absolutely not available. I dont really want to get into that here but it involves research by the vehicle owner, the VP Class Judging, and the VP Technical Matters before any decisions are arrived at. In the case of a 57 Chevy, this is not an issue since the tires are readilly available as far as I know. 2)There are no "original replacements" for fender skirts, since there were no original fenderskirts. GM did not offer fenderskirts with these cars. While it is a very popular add on it is not a factory authorized item. The ones most people refer to as "original" are Foxcraft aftermarket skirts that were dealer added but not factory authorized. Dealer added items are only accepted for judging when they are factory authorized and appear in the factory publication(s) as such. So pull the skirts before judging. 3)As for your spinner hubcaps, I do not know the answer, specifically but the same rule applies. If they appear as an available factory authorized item then they are fine. Otherwise they would recieve the full deduction for a non authentic hubcap. Check your literature. 4) Spark Plugs do not need to be the exact brand as supplied by the manufacturers as manufacturers in some cases may have purchased from more than one company during a particular model year. they only need be the style used in vehicle. I hope this information helps you out. Remember that documentation through "FACTORY" literature is your best friend when it comes to optional items. Also keep in mind that the rules of AACA National Judging may differ from the rules of specific marque clubs. That doesnt mean that either is right or wrong, it just defines what each accepts. Good luck at the meets. smirk.gif

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  • 1 month later...

How many total points would one lose by using radial look-a-likes if the size is comparable to the original bias tire and given that the rest of the wheel is restored stock with the proper finish and wheelcover or hubcap ?

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The tire is judged seperate from the rim and wheel cover. the max point deduction per tire is 3 points each. For those tire it should be the max. 3 points each. But.... that depends if the judge is on the ball.

First, I would presume somewhere on the "look-a-like" tire it would have the tire size in P-metric form. Dead give away they are wrong tires. Secondly the radial tire sidewall will bulge out. Charateristic of radials and should be a "red Flag" to the judge to look more closely at the tires.

If it was my car ans I was going to show it I'd do one of two things. Get a second set of rims to mount radials on for driving and the bias on the other set for shows OR go to the show knowing that chances are you'll be "starting" 15 points (presuming spare is one too) behind everyone else, if the judge catches those tires.

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Is this the Correct Deduction?

Last time I judges I took 3 off per tire and was told by my team captain that

since the tires were there and served their intended function, I could not take off the max deduction. I was told I could only give max deduction if the tires we not present or not in a condition to serve their intended function. So on the scoring sheet 2 per tire was the deduction.

Does AACA have a set rule on this?

I have been told both ways?

Not questioning you just wanting to know what is correct.

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I took the CJE course on tires and I was told the max. (I am not good at wording this) It is if they were not there becuase they are completely incorrect. I'll use something else as an example. On the valve stem caps, if your car is old enough they should be metal and you have plastic it is max becuase it is completely incorrect. Now if those caps were metal but corroded, mangled, etc. but still screwed on the valve stem it would not be max deduction be cause they are there, they are the right type, and they still serve thier purpose. An extreme example would be taking a MGTD hood, modifing it to fit a Model A. What would you take? The max you could for that hood. Yes, it is a hood (parallel= tire), it serves it's purpose by covering the engine compartment (parallel= lets the car roll down the road), But it is incorrect for that car (Parallel= radials on a car that came with bias tires). Hope I made that clear without causing more confusion.

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I have also taken the CJE on tires from Eric (Rick) Marsh and his instructions were to take the maximum of 3 points per tire for any that were radials that should not be.

Before the days of CJE classes we were told that if a car had radials and it was not supposed to that is was the same as if it was sitting on blocks with the tires removed.

Sad to say you can't always go by what a Captain tells you. In Hershey several years ago I actually had a Captain tell me that as long as the owner had a fire extinguisher with the car it did not matter if it was empty. I asked her what they were supposed to do in case of a fire, beat the fire out with the empty extinguisher?!? The subject came up because in checking the extinguisher at a car it had been discharged, and not recently judging from the filthy non-fresh residue on the nozzle.

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Well, I cringe when things like this come up. That particular captain was quite wrong. There are three times only when the maximum deduction applies for any component but it must be taken if it is one of those three times.

1. When the item is missing

2. When the item is non-authentic

3. When the item appears in such a deteriorated state that it cannot perform the function the manufacturer intended.

This is taught at every judging school, every apprentice team, and every CJE for Team Captains and should be being taught at every CJE regardless of subject matter as this is part of the core program that each CJE instructor has been given.

So needless to say in the case of non-authentic tires the maximum deduction would have to apply.

Thank you for raising this issue. If just one judge or judge to be reads this that might have went the wrong way we will all be closer to the uniformity that we all strive for. smirk.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sad to say you can't always go by what a Captain tells you. </div></div>

Shop Rat, I had the same thing happen to me. Mine involved the radial tire issue. The owner placed documentation by the tire but I still took the max. The team captain questioned me about it. I told him the documentation was a timeline for when the TIRE manufacturer MANUFACTURED radial tires. Not about what were correct tires for that car. Then the issue was over the 15 points (including spare) his argument was "they are there and the serve the purpose". When I told him I had just taken the tire CJE Class (This was a few years ago) and who the instructor was, he accepted what I was telling him. I think it more out of respect for the instructor than me. I think he felt I'm too young to know what I'm talking about plus I haven't restored a car to be a national winner like him.

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novaman, Also not all CJE instructors have their ducks in a row. I took the CJE class for chassis and the instructor was a Mustang guy. He made a totally wrong statement about tires and I asked him about it and he was sure he was right. Along comes Eric (Rick) Marsh (CJE tire instructor) and I quietly ask him about it. It was the next show after I had taken his class and had his instructional notes on my clipboard. He backed me up. So I asked him to address the issue and he did. If he had not come along there would have been a whole class, and several were fresh out of the apprentice class, that would have been given wrong information and taken it as gospel.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have an original 1957 Chevrolet 2 dr. hard top BelAir 2400 Series vin#VC-57L191778, My questions are: What tires are acceptable for judging? I have four (plus spare) Bias ply, original style white wall tires on vehicle. Can I replace these with Coker Radials and not lose points?

Are rear fender skirts acceptable, if original replacements for judging vehicle?

The car has spinner hub caps, which I believe were an option for this vehicle. Are they acceptable for judging vehicle?

Do spark plugs have to be of correct brand name for that year? If not what is acceptable for judging? Thank you for your help. </div></div>

Chevrolet had a spinner set for the '57 full wheel cover, that was dealer-installed.

Art

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A word of caution with respect to "Dealer installed options & add ons". Only those dealer installed items are permitted for National AACA Judging that have been authorized by the manufacturer via its literature, sales directiives or parts books. Obviously a dealer in order to make the sale and keep his customer happy might install anything the customer wanted, and often did. Just because something was dealer installed does not make it acceptable for judging. So if your vehicle has "dealer" add ons make sure you have verified them through the necessary factory documentation to avoid the possibility of an authenticity deduction. smirk.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A word of caution with respect to "Dealer installed options & add ons". Only those dealer installed items are permitted for National AACA Judging that have been authorized by the manufacturer via its literature, sales directiives or parts books. Obviously a dealer in order to make the sale and keep his customer happy might install anything the customer wanted, and often did. Just because something was dealer installed does not make it acceptable for judging. So if your vehicle has "dealer" add ons make sure you have verified them through the necessary factory documentation to avoid the possibility of an authenticity deduction. smirk.gif </div></div>

Dave,

EXACTLY!

Before answering this question, I did go back to my references on '57 Chevy options, RPO and dealer-installed. In the case of tri-5 Chevies, just as with Model A Fords, so much research has been done, so many authoritative books and magazine articles have been written, so many original factory documents have been reprinted over time, there really isn't any excuse for an inaccurate restoration or incorrect accessories or options installed.

Art

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"In the case of tri-5 Chevies, just as with Model A Fords, so much research has been done, so many authoritative books and magazine articles have been written, so many original factory documents have been reprinted over time, there really isn't any excuse for an inaccurate restoration or incorrect accessories or options installed."

Well.......I agree with the above but, I have a question that I'd like for someone to answer. I don't own a Tri-Five Chevrolet but I've noticed that some 57 Bel-Air's have their wheels painted body color while others have them painted argent silver. I've asked 57 owners about this and have heard all kinds of storys about why they have their's painted as they are but no one has ever been able to pin point factory documentation. Anybody know whats really correct?

confused.gif

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I'm not a '57 Chevy expert by any strech of the imagination but if I was judging that class I'd have to asked for documention on body colored rims. I can't imagine Chevrolet taking the time to paint rims in the 16 different colos available that year. All the cars having silver rims would make more sense. Also, I'd think all '57 Chevys would be the one way or the other, not mixed.

on the Chevy IIs from the 60's Chevrolet did paint wheels body color on the 100 series with the small hubcaps. All cars with full hubcaps were black. But there, there were only a handfull of colors.

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Tommy,I'm no expert either but I referred to my copy of The Hot One. It shows 16 different wheel colors for a '57 Cheby. Only silver cars had silver wheels. The confusing part is a 2-tone might have different colored wheels depending on if it's a 210 or Belair. And before I get bombed I know a book like this is not official AACA documentation. Maybe a '57 expert can explain. And as you know, with your '62 Corvette the whitewall/dogdish issue may come into play.

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"I referred to my copy of The Hot One. It shows 16 different wheel colors for a '57 Cheby. Only silver cars had silver wheels."

That's what I was thinking, but, I have researched and restored a 58 Chevrolet and those cars had their wheels painted body color EXCEPT for the Impala series. The 1958 Impala wheels were all painted argent silver regardless of body color. This is where the confusion started because 57 and 58 Chevrolets are in the same AACA class and some 57 owners claim that this practice started with the 57 Bel-Airs at SOME of the Chevrolet plants. We know that the cheaper body styles all had the wheels painted body color, the question only concerns the Bel-Air series. I didn't mean to get this thread off topic, but I do think this is a worthwhile discussion. Thanks for the response. What I'm trying to figure out is, is this true and if so, does anyone have information to document this and which plants used the silver wheels, which plants used the body color wheels. Somebody knows the answer cause 57 Chevrolet people are about as detail orinated as Corvette people are!!! grin.gif

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Thanks, I thought somebody would know.

"Since AACA doesn't check color codes on ID tags does any of this really matter? A factory white car painted red is fine with AACA, so why would wheel color matter?"

Well, it is true that AACA doesn't concern its self with color codes as long as it was an available color, but if the wheels are supposed to be painted silver regardless of body color then it does matter because if they are painted any other color, then they would be incorrect.

It's no big deal, I had just noticed at Hershey last year that there were two red 57 Chevrolet Bel-Airs in the same class, one had red wheels and one had silver wheels. When you see this, you figure, one of these cars can't be correct but according to the explaination just given, they could both be correct if one was an early car and the other was a late car. Guess I was being too picky grin.gif

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Ah but David, with Joe Vicini being retired from GM, and with Fred Young being heavily involved, you have two guys who are very well versed on the '57 Chevy, or at least know someone who is. Those two would be the guys to ask...

.....sounds like a good online CJE topic doesn't it??

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