Guest twinfour Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 Great idea! Let's see what we-all can come up with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted June 4, 2006 Author Share Posted June 4, 2006 I'm all for it... now where's that thread? It could start here, as long as they are Packard "Firsts" such as first president, first head of styling, first chief engineer, etc. Let the historians have a field day! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Also of particular note: did Packard have "firsts" in the industry in particular positions of authority? In other words, did they "invent" pieces of the automotive corporate structure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted June 11, 2006 Author Share Posted June 11, 2006 Brian,Come on, tell us what you <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> think! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />All I can say is... I haven't seen the '52 Pan American in person, but I really like that picture. Sometimes, from a certain angle, a car just says "look at me." But, I included the pic here mostly because I thought it is somewhat of a Packard "First" as in the first Pan American (which has been confirmed).However, it's not the first incarnation of the first car, but rather the last modification. So, if we are to be true to the thread, does anyone have PICS OF THE '52 PACKARD PAN AMERICAN IN ITS FIRST BODY STYLE?That would be so cool... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Thanks for posting those, Brian. It looks like you have to be a logged-in Chicago Tribune web page subscriber to see the "Special Request" article. Is the car referred to the '55 body style with traditional upright Packard grillwork and reworked front bumper, etc? The "Request" was an interesting car, and shown in the Kimes book. It was so named supposedly because there was a clamor from longtime Packard buyers for the classic Packard radiator shell. To me, it didn't quite make it styling-wise grafted onto a '55, but it looked better than it might sound to someone who hasn't seen it! Kind of a marginal idea well-executed. One thing I like about it is it is quite "radical," and I think that's what draws me to the '52 Pan American in it's last incarnation. Subtle it ain't. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Here is an intersting side note about automatic load leveler systems.Cowly England 1913-1915 Cowey Engineering Co. Ltd. Kew Gardens, SurreyThe speciality of the Cowey company was their pneumatic suspension in which the weight of the car was caried on four cylinders of compressed air. The system incorporated an AUTOMATIC LEVELING SYSTEM, such as seen on the Citroen DS 19 some years later. Two experimental cars with De Dion engines and solid tires were shown at the Olympia in 1910.The production Cowey was a light car with a 10 hp Chapius_Donier engine. In addition to the pneumatic suspension it used friction drive in which a flywheel with conial facing acted as the driving disc. The Cowey was produced from 1913 till 1915.THE HISTORY MANJOHN F. SHIREMAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 Hey, cool info John. Did that "conical" drive act as a continuously variable transmission perhaps?Brian, Thanks for the info on article link, and the book sounds very interesting too. I might just check Amazon for a used copy. I need some good new Packard reading material. I imagine you mentioned that book in your Packard Library thread. And, speaking of that thread, I REALLY think it should be "thumbtacked" to the top of the forum. Last time I brought it up I suggested that, but it never happened. That thread was a lot of good work, and now it's buried again. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Not for long, I hope. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Just a heads-up for those who haven't noticed, <span style="font-weight: bold">The Packard Owner's Bookshelf</span> thread by B.H. is thumbtacked at the top of the forum! Give it a look if you haven't seen it before, and if you have, look again. Get busy and read everybody, and we just might have some more "Packard Firsts" to ponder, too! Oh, that's right, it's summer and time to drive old cars. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Big thanks to Peter G. for helping out with the "Bookshelf" posting. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />And, even bigger thanks to Brian for all the good work on that thread! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Brian, if you are interested I can give you a section on the PackardInfo site that will allow you to upload text, add pics, and all that goodness. If you are interested let me know. I think it would be a good fit to compliment the other resouces out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Not a problem. The site being modular, I can snap in different types on connect handlers and formatters on the fly. So when you are ready let me know your ideas and I am sure I can find a module that will fit what you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Meanwhile, I think having the "Bookshelf" thread pinned here invites commentary on the books listed and some discussion... and people can weigh in if they get one of the books and find items of particular interest--like Packard "Firsts" to add. Shameless "plug." <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recuse myself from any decision as to whether or not that thread should be pinned, but leave it up to the forum audience.</div></div> Brian, you're too modest! Even if there is not a lot of discussion there, it's sure to get a lot more "lookers" now that it's pinned--and it's an inviting reference for newcomers to the forum as well. I couldn't stand it being buried out there. Too much good work went into it. Good luck on "spreading it around" when you get the time. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Let me know if you need something pinned, by popular demand, of course! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 Brian,The "archival" nature of the thread was the reason I thought it should be pinned. It may generate some responses there, but threads are usually pinned to facilitate readers' finding them because they <span style="font-style: italic">won't</span> typically generate responses and will get buried. I really didn't want that to happen.Thanks, R.W.! We'll let you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 As suggested earlier, some Packard non-automotive engineering "Firsts" might be in order. That can include internal company "firsts" such as first person in various corporate and engineering or production positions, and other interesting pieces of Packard lore.I thought the First Use of the "Ask the Man Who Owns One" phrase in an advertisement would be a fun place to start:The attached file is, (of course) from Kimes (ibid, ad infinitum) page 42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 Well, Kev posted a link to this Packard tidbit from Wikipedia on his "Ultramatic" thread, and when I asked if anyone could challenge it as a "Packard First" there were no takers--so HERE IT IS:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also new that year [1956] was an aluminum transmission casing, making the Ultramatic 90 lb (41 kg) lighter than its competition. Future transmissions from all manufacturers were to follow Packard's lead.</div></div>It certainly indicates that Packard pioneered the aluminum automatic transmission case, at least in the U.S. if not the world. Not an insignificant achievement! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />If this "first" is not definitively challenged here, I will also post it on Wayne's AACA General Forum "Packard Firsts?" thread, and if it passes muster there IT'S GOING ON "THE LIST!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 Last chance!!! It's going on the list!!!My, there are a lot of "lookers" on this thread considering there are so few new posts. Cat got your tongue(s)? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 <span style="font-weight: bold">Packard Automotive "Firsts"</span>Based on an original list found at Packard Autombile Club (PAC) website (used with permission) and portions of various other lists, with extensive editing and new items from the AACA Forum membership, posted here for discussion before inclusion.1. Automatic spark advance (1899) 2. ?H? pattern selective gear shift (1900) 3. Aluminum crankcase (1904)4. Hypoid differential (1925) 5. Hydraulic shock absorbers on U.S. vehicle (1926) 6. Backup lights (1927) 7. Self cleaning full flow oil filter (1934) 8. Pressurized cooling system (1938) 9. Air conditioning (1939) 10. Padded dash (1939) 11. Electric power windows (1940) 12. Direct drive (locking) torque converter (1949) 13. Electric power antenna (1951) 14. Power steering linkage mounted to frame (1953) 15. Standard tubeless tires (1954) 16. Fully interconnected 4-wheel torsion bar suspension (1955) 17. Electric load leveler (1955) 18. Pump aided vacuum windshield wipers (1955) 19. Limited slip differential (1956) 20. Pushbutton electric selector for automatic transmission (1956) 21. Reversible seat cushions (1956) 22. Aluminum automatic transmission case (1956)DISCLAIMER AND INVITATION:There is nothing sacred about this list, nor are any claims made for its absolute accuracy. Consider it "living history," and subject to modifications when new information comes to light. Be aware that the items listed have been vigorously debated and survived challenges by members of the AACA Forum. The items remaining on the list are fewer than half in number than the original PAC list which was the starting point for compiling the list posted here.The "Packard Firsts" list is submitted for comments, suggestions, additions, deletions, clarifications, etc. If you have a contribution to make, please submit it as a post on this thread for discussion by AACA Packard Forum members. It will also be posted on an additional "Packard Firsts?" thread to be found on the AACA General Forum for input from other members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Automatic Spark Advance:Look up p287, Automobile Engineering vol III,American Technical Society, 1924 edition.This refers to a car built in 1896 with a horizontal opposed two cylinder engine with a flywheel type of dynamotor like the later USL system used on early series L-head Mercers. (bore /stroke were 6"x7". This had electric lights and automatic spark advance. This may be the early car built by Charles Greuter, who was later associated with Matheson, Excelsior, and Stutz.Earliest aluminium piston I have seen was among parts/remains of a type 28 4 cylinder Napier of about 1908. It had only a single very wide ring groove for either a single wide ring or a stack of rings. I identified it as the correct bore and compression height for one of the four cyl Napiers, as I had and still have a slightly later car. The chance of such a car ever being rebored during its useful life was quite remote.Earliest Magnesium piston I have seen was placed in my hand to demonstrate its lightness by Ralph Buckley in September 1980. Ralph told me it was from a racing 1915 L-head Mercer. I am sure Fred Hoch could confirm this.Please do not consider me a heretic. I have the essence of a 3rd series 1922 Twin 6 to restore. A friend and I bought the engine and gearbox in 1961, and subsequently I gathered more remains of the same car which was a Runabout with 100mm Rudge wheels. A year or so back I managed to get more to make a restoration project, though much of the recent aquisition is very rough. Ivan Saxton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 Ivan,I don't see anything heretical there, just some new information. The automatic spark advance "first" hasn't been questioned that I can remember. Perhaps the listing will have to be revised to "first in the U.S." However, the listing in Automobile Engineering "refers to a car," seeming to indicate it might not have been a production car. Although we've been real sticklers about what appears on the list, most of the discussion has been limited to production cars. The Packard spark advance was reportedly used first in 1899, perhaps prior to a real "model year" as there was a lot of experimentation going on. But, 1900 was a true model year, and the system was described in one news release for U.S. automotive publications for that year as follows:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The engine [of the 1900 Packard Model B] is of the horizontal, single cylinder, four-cycle type, with a high compression for full load and throttling controls. By an automatic device the lead of the ignition, which is of the jump spark type, is shifted to correspond to any speed at which the engine may be running."*</div></div>That's one reference, and perhaps there are others who would like to contribute information.As always, it gets a little murky considering things like "first application" versus "first use in a production car" versus "first patent" etc. on technical advancements taking place over 100 years ago.Regarding the "aluminum piston," after much debate that was excised quite some time ago and doesn't appear on the most recent list shown above. A pity, because the debut of the "alloy piston" by Packard was in the Twin Six, such as the one you are restoring.However, at least one quite far-reaching list, which includes many international designs, of "Automotive Technical Firsts" gives Packard (out of only 3 items listed as "firsts" for Packard)... the "alloy piston!"The list of "Automotive Technical Firsts" athttp://www.autocluster.com/id40.htmwas not compiled by Packard people, and yet includes the following Packard "firsts": <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1916 Packard sells first production car with a V12 engine, the Twin Six.Packard Twin Six (V12) model is first American car to have alloy pistons. 1925 Packard introduces hypoid rear axles.</div></div>Note that they say Packard SELLS the first production car with a V12 engine, and that the Twin Six is the first AMERICAN car to have alloy pistons.BUT, since there was another V12 equipped car unearthed here on the forum that was supposedly built (a matter of months) before the Twin Six rolled off the line, the Packard V12 was taken off the list of "firsts." Picky Packard People, eh? I swear, they're harder on Packards here on this forum--at least in this thread--than they are on other makes. Can't imagine why...And, note the term "alloy" as opposed to "aluminum" is used in the "Automotive Technical Firsts" list. Not quite sure how to read that... and it's such a complex issue that, what the heck, leave it off the list.So, I don't know for sure about automatic spark advance, Ivan. Usually, I have to leave the final decisions up to the "Board of Historical Directors" here on the Packard forum. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Seriously, I do look for some consensus, and try to err on the conservative side... that's why the list has shrunk by about half from the original posted at the beginning of the thread.*From Packard, A History of the Motor Car and the Company, edited by Beverly Rae Kimes, Published by Automobile Quarterly, 1978, pg 37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 The 1896 car with autmatic spark advance is quite obviously American, or it would have been otherwise attributed in Automobile Engineering. You should be able to access a copy through a library, but if you cannot, I plan to get a replacement scanner sometime in the next week when I can work a trip to Melbourne. The list of engineering contributers in the front is very impressive. If you then look at page 152 of the Stutz book ISBN 0-9654709-0-3 there is biographical information on Charles Greuter, who was born in Philadelphia. I apologise I omitted reference to his OHC Holyoke car around 1900-01. (should always check references) The car described in Automobile Engineering must be accepted, I feel; but I am suggesting that it is likely Greuter may have been responsible. It is not unusual that more than one inventive mind produces the same advance at about the same time. Even if James Ward was not the first to achieve this, it does not diminish his independant invention of it.I never bothered to mention that W O Bentley is usually accepted as the originator of light alloy pistons. As agent for the French DFP (Doriet Flandrin et Parant) cars before WW1, he promoted sales by hot-rodding and racing one size model successfully. Most significant enhancement of the performance was achieved by light aluminium/copper alloy pistons. These were certainly fitted with wide clearance which would make them rattle before everthing warmed up, because no-one had thought of cam-grinding so you could fit them with minimal clearance across the thrust faces of piston skirts. At the start of hostilities he rattled the cages of the military about the significance of the increased performance that would be possible with aero engines. He was warned that he was talking publicly about sensitive restricted matters: Then he was placed in the system, and designed two different sizes of rotary aero engine for the RAF. Of course the rotary engine concept was pretty much an evolutionary dead end. I cannot remember refence to earlier alloy pistons that Bentley, But the Napier piston I saw substantially pre-dated Bentley, and when you read Napier history and are familiar with early Napier cars it is quite believeable. (my 1911 4cyl has full pressure crankshaft lubrication, a pressure relief valve, and a full-flow oil filter!) Even in the early 1920's cact iron was the most usual pistn material, and even Duesenberg offered a choice of material. It was a while before anyone worked out the best alloy composition, let alone heat treatment of the castings. (Have you ever made pistons for an old car? I have.)You can be certain that Milton Tibbets would have patented alloy pistons for Packard if it had been possible. I mentioned Mercer's 1915 magnesium pistons as a curiosity for people who remember burning magnesium ribbon in school chemistry classes. Try lighting steel wool with a match. It burns nicely. You would have to heat a mass of magnesium way past melting point to make it burn. If you allowed detonation or pre-ignition, and burned a hole in a piston you would get a very interesting cloud of white smoke. Otherwise they would be fine.All the best, Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Ivan Saxton: The Holyyoke was produced in Holyke Massachuusetts from 1899 through 1903. Greuter worked as a mechanical engineer for Columbia Stoker Works of Holyoke. While working for this company he built his two experimental cars in 1898. The first car he produced was a trap modle with a two cylinder engine of seven horse power. In August of 1903 his car company merged with the Matheson Motor Car Company of grand Rapid Michigan.. This company then moved to Wilkes-Barre Penna.in 1906, he remained as cheif engineer until 1908 when he quit, tried building another car of his own design intended for pruduction called the C.R.G.In 1923 he was employed by the Excelsior Motor Company, when he was hired by Fred Moskovics, serving as chief engineer, and did his magic in the developement of the DV-32.It is certainly nice to have someone like you come into this forum that has a good handle on automotive history.John F. Shireman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 John you probably need to discuss Charles Greuter with Wayne Saunders of the Stutz Club, who authored the sidebar page on him in the Stutz book. People can only assume that he was responsible for the DV 32. If you go to the Stutz site, to a topic pertaining to changes in the OHC Eight engines, you will see why it is pretty certain that Lockhart was still around at the genesis of these. I have cast iron evidence of this here. Among my Twin six parts is most of a 1917 3rd series engine, of which someone stole the crankcase and sump. The pistons are cast iron. Motor for Jan 1921 lists cast iron pistons then too. I don't intend to check the piston material in my good engine till I start to restore it.Come to think of it, the first Hydraulic shock absorbers may be out too. Houdaille may have been the first hydraulic shocks, or maybe not. Mercer certainly used them in 1923, because they are on my Mercer 6 cars; but Cunningham used them in 1921, and maybe even before. Basically the same Houdaille shocks were used on army trucks during the war. I am quite familiar with these, because my father used and dealt in war surplus. He and a partner owned around 200 Stuart, Lee, and Grant tanks at one stage. All the best, et cetera, Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 There were some questions and comments posted on the AACA General thread about hydraulic shocks as well. I'll try to alert that person to post here as well.Ivan, I still can't quite understand the actual model of the vehicle you're referring to that had the automatic spark advance in 1896. But I'm sure John will chime in and straighten me out, or at least quote something out of a book without citing the source... come on John, I know you're always pressed for time, unlike all the other posters on this board who've got all day, but share a little background info, OK? Since you admit to being one of only two people posting here who have a handle on automotive history, it's only right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlander Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 ember Reged: 11/19/03 Posts: 1256 Loc: Minnesota Re: Packard Firsts??? [Re: mlander] #410382 - 09/22/06 10:33 PM mlander,Can I persuade you to post these comments over on the Packard Forum in the "Packard Firsts" thread there? You'll also find the updated list of "trivia" that Packard engineered there, and also a few so-called Packard "enthusiasts" who seem to be as bent on negating or minimizing Packard engineering achievements as you are. Strange, but trueSince this ?invitation? to post this over here in addition to the other place @ AACA here it is!#9. First Hydraulic Shocks on an American car weren?t they Delco/Lovejoys? The only other way they could be first on a Packard is if they were Houdaille (Hoo-Dye). I think that if they were Delco?s it is necessary to add a notation just as was done on the Wonderbar radio. Also on the first automatic spark advance it should be necessary to add that they didn?t make there own magneto, did they? Or just what kind of ignition system did they make/use. I?ll almost bet it was a magneto! None of the other ignition systems lasted as long as a snowball in a blast furnace! When the Delco system came out it blew away the other system almost overnight. Please give me a page number for the ?discovery? as I have both books on Packard by Robert J. Neal Ivan_Saxton Member Reged: 04/27/06 Posts: 30 Re: Packard "Firsts" [Re: Packard53] #408672 - 09/16/06 08:09 AM John you probably need to discuss Charles Greuter with Wayne Saunders of the Stutz Club, who authored the sidebar page on him in the Stutz book. People can only assume that he was responsible for the DV 32. If you go to the Stutz site, to a topic pertaining to changes in the OHC Eight engines, you will see why it is pretty certain that Lockhart was still around at the genesis of these. I have cast iron evidence of this here. Among my Twin six parts is most of a 1917 3rd series engine, of which someone stole the crankcase and sump. The pistons are cast iron. Motor for Jan 1921 lists cast iron pistons then too. I don't intend to check the piston material in my good engine till I start to restore it.Come to think of it, the first Hydraulic shock absorbers may be out too. Houdaille may have been the first hydraulic shocks, or maybe not. Mercer certainly used them in 1923, because they are on my <span style="text-decoration: underline">Mercer 6 cars</span> ; but Cunningham used them in 1921, and maybe even before. Basically the same Houdaille shocks were used on army trucks during the war. I am quite familiar with these, because my father used and dealt in war surplus. He and a partner owned around 200 Stuart, Lee, and Grant tanks at one stage. All the best, et cetera, Ivan Houdaille (Hoo-dye) shocks were invented by this Frenchman in 1908. According to the best information I have they were double action and as I have no information on just who used them first on an actual car either in the U.S.A. or in Europe it would seem incredible that there is a discrepancy of some 19 years before hydraulic shocks were used on any car. http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article828.shtmlAdditional information that may or may not be interesting about Houdaille below.http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Ford/Haudaille/index.htmlhttp://www.aaca.org/publications/rummagebox/2005/winter/winter05c.htmhttp://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcsuz/tl_shock.htmlhttp://www.pierce-arrow.com/PDF%20files/...0Population.htmhttp://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1940076In 1925, Ralph Peo of the Houdaille Company in Buffalo, New York, U.S.A. invented a solution to the seal problem. Instead of improving the seal, he redesigned the damper to use a rotating piston rod and vane assembly, thus replacing long travel, sliding seal motion with a short 60-120 degree rotary travel. The Houdaille rotary damper was actuated by crank arms attached to the moving components of the suspension. The short rotary travel of the seal allowed for roughly 16,000 km of road travel before seal replacement was necessary. Within a short period, most automobiles were using the Houdaille rotary damper. Figure 8 is one of the original patent sheets depicting Peo?s 1925 invention.Hydraulic shock absorbers -- M. Houdaille of France gets credit for designing the first workable hydraulic shock absorber in 1908. Hydraulic shocks dam spring oscillations by forcing fluid through small passages. In the popular tubular shock, a piston with small orifices is attached to the chassis and a cylindrical oil reservoir is attached to the suspension or axle. As the suspension moves up and down, the piston is forced through the oil, resisting the action of the spring.One-way valves allow different orifices to be used to control suspension jounce and rebound. This is called a double-acting shock.The Houdaille Corporation (U.S.A.) dates back to 1919 when a U.S. company was formed to manufacture a shock absorber invented by Maurice Houdaille, a French engineer. Just when Houdaille of Canada, Oshawa, Ontario was in force and if they manufactured Shocks I haven?t been able to find a reliable source. However I believe it was in 1929. Marion L. Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Guy: Here is a set of pictures that I took at the AACA Museum in May of this year. I think that you might find them interesting, concerning number 10 on your Packard's First List padded dash 1939. Please read the front palte on the car. 1931 Chrysler Modle CG Custome Imperial Lebaron Dual Cowl Pheaton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Guy: Another picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Guy: Here is a picture that should realy be of interest to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 55PackardGuy: As you will note in post 41035, you will note that there is a padded dash, pre-dating Packards padded dash by eight years. Now how is that for reference material. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />I guess that I am a better historian and have better reference matterials than that of two major car clubs, that have posted that list. Guess that kind of takes care of claim number 10 on your list, state-tuned over the next couple of days. i am not done with the Packards First yet.John F. Shireman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 55PackardGuy: Now lets go to number 8 on the Packard First list. From the research I have been able to do on Packard the introduction of the aluminum crankcase was in May of 1915 with the introduction of the Twin Six. Which is suppose to be an automtive industry first. If you can find an earlier date when Packard used an aluminum crankcase on one of their engines please let me.In December 1908 Marmon annouced that they were coming out with a new car called the model 32. This car was introduced to the public sometime in 1909. The model 32 was powered by 4 cylinder engine water coolded 4.5 inch bore with a 4.5 inch stroke, producing 4o horse power. Tandem cylinder blocks with integral heads were mounted on an ALUMINUM CRANKCASE. The model 32 Marmon was in production from 1909 till 1914.Source ANTIQUE AUTOMBILE July_August edition 1978 volume 42 number 4. Article appears on pages 32 through page 42. Article written by George P. Hanley. Now if you think that the information I have posted is in error please state so, and give your sources of information that proove me wrong.John F. Shireman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted September 25, 2006 Author Share Posted September 25, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i am not done with the Packards First yet.</div></div> You know what puzzles me John, is why you seem so bent out of shape about this... and particularly why you seem NEVER to be able to come up with anything, out of all your wonderful "sources," that would ADD anything to a list that simply attempts to celebrate the achievements of the Packard marque?Oh yeah, now I remember, the original list (a mere starting point, vastly changed since, which came with absolutely no endorsement from me) originally appeared on (shudder) the PAC website. So, you take it upon yourself, because you have a personal beef with PAC and certain people at PAC, to do nothing here but rant and pontificate about how your superior intelligence will pick holes in anybody else's ideas on what to include in a list of bonafide Packard innovations. It seems strictly personal and all about winning some kind of contest.Well, OK John, you're better and smarter and wiser than anybody, and Packard didn't come up with anything.Here's a new list for you:"Packard Firsts"Packard first built cars some time in the 1890s, at least it's rumored that they did. All else is myth and fable. John S. says so, and he's an automotive historian with a great big library and he should know. The end.I'm sure you can find something wrong with that list, too. Have fun!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted September 25, 2006 Author Share Posted September 25, 2006 BTW, in case you really need a list that didn't come from PAC, try this one on for size...(Reproduced by permission from Packards International)<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alvan MacauleyThe Right Man-The Right Place-The Right TimePresentation For The Nomination of Alvan Macauley ToThe Automotive Hall Of FameContributors to this PresentationPackards International Motor Car Club?s ArchivesLiterature Collection of Mr. Frederick R. MauckLiterature Collection of Dr. Robert MalstromMrs. Estelle Macauley Ritter- Granddaughter of Alvan MacauleyA Memorial Biography-Alvan Macauley for the Macauley familyMr. and Mrs. Gerald VinarcikPackards International Motor Car Club302 French Street Santa Ana, California 92701Phone Number: 714 633-3572Material Prepared by Frederick R. Mauck Submitted for: Packards International Motor Car Club by: Frederick R. Mauck Member Board of Directors Packards International Motor Car ClubPage 18:Below are but a few of the Packard Motor Car Firsts that occurred on Mr. Macauely?s ?watch?. (The ones I could remember at the writing of this presentation. Later you will see the aviation records.) SOME PACKARD FIRSTSFirst American twelve cylinder engine (1915)First aluminum pistoned automobile engine (1915)First company to offer bumpers as standard equipment. (1924)First hypoid differential (1925)First hydraulic shock absorbers (1926)First backup lights (1927)First pressurized cooling system (1933)First oil temperature regulator (1933)First full flow oil filter (1933)First self-cleaning full flow oil filter (1934)First to locate hand brake on left of driver (1915)First to use steering wheel instead of tiller handle.First power hydraulic brakes (1936)First aluminum crankcase.First automobile air conditioning (1939)First sealed beam headlights (1939)First padded dash (1939)First pleated upholstery (1939)First automatic windows (1940)First all steel station wagon (1948)First thermostatic control of water circulation in a motorcar.First to hook up the accelerator pedal and hand throttle.First to patent automobile wheels interchangeable at hub.First to offer ribbed jacket water-cooled cylinders.First to obtain patent on radiator with top and bottom reservoirs with tubes.First central automatic chassis lubricator system.First in America to use ?trunnion block? which added to driving safety.First ?ride control? - a mechanism for controlling shock absorber activity.First package compartment in instrument panel.First sun visors.First constant action vacuum (pump aided) windshield wipers.First to use lateral stabilizer.First to use built-in under-fender cooling tunnels.First electrically controlled overdrive.First automatic radiator shutters as standard equipment.First to include front and rear bumpers as standard.First to use balloon tires as standard.Phillips screw.</div></div>Now, if I'm understanding correctly, you're telling me PI is ALL WRONG too? They did present this officially to the Automotive Hall of Fame.I would say, in comparison, the list in its most recent form on this thread is parsimonious to a fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Guy: If PI did presnet that list to the Automotive Hall of Fame, in the form you have published out of the 38 or 39 claims on that list, I very easly and without too much work can blow about 12 of those claims out of the water.YES THEY WERE WRONG IN PRESENTING THAT LIST.When you published the revised list in here I was very content to leave it at that, knowing that there were still some glaring errors in it. I have been very content in the last couple of weeks not to be very vocal in this forum about PAC or PIC concerning present and past matters. But when people like you want to poke the fire, and think its out, your going to find out you have got bigger fire on your hands than you know what to do with. Over the next couple of weeks and months I am going to go through the list you published with the permission of PI add two finding of my own forPackards First. Then I am going to take your cherrish list and the claims that I knwo are bogus, and site the reference material that I have to proove my claims.John F. Shireman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 Thanks Brian, I needed to have you point that out. Since you've decided once again to speak for John, I'm wondering what kind of response you feel he should expect, given the fact that he continues to take a confrontational approach to every item he brings up, as though the whole idea of this list is a challenge and affront to him personally. I don't know, maybe he should find another marque of automobile that he actually thinks deserves respect, and that he would like to say more positive things about. Marmon comes to mind.As you both should know by now, I've repeated it often enough, the list was originally posted for discussion and improvement, not "controversy." It was fully acknowledged from the start that there were bound to be items that would be changed and deleted through, one hoped, civil discussion. The list isn't about somebody trying to "put something over" on anyone, and the discussion is not about assuaging anyone's ego, it's about celebrating the Packard marque.Why aren't you fellows, especially John--but you seem to come as a package deal--getting adamant about adding something to the list???? Or even, possibly, defending something? It's all about picking at every perceived or real fault, and saying "gotcha!" to someone. In John's case, I suspect that "someone" probably works at PAC. Or maybe it's just me--how dare I suggest anything about Packard that one of you didn't come up with first! My deepest apologies for presuming that I have anything costructive to say.John,I can see where fans of other car makes would go out of their way to nitpick every entry to find a possible precedence by the xyz car company from Nambia, and to avoid verifying any items or adding anything to the list like the plague, but you are supposedly a Packard "enthusiast." What gives? Is it more important to look like an "expert" and try to "win" a debate than to actually write something constructive or enlightening about Packard's achievements? That, after all, is what this thread is supposed to be about... Packard's achievements, not yours.OK, just for fun, here's an item for you... I won't even call it a "first" (far be it from me to upset anyone's delicate equilibrium) but Packard DID have a "tilt" steering column in... 1900.And I'm not going to cite my source--so there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 From Ivan Saxton over on AACA General: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I find interesting in this sort of discussion [of Packard Firsts] is the gradual clarification through the contribution of people's references and personal experiences.</div></div> That pretty much sums up what I had hoped to be the spirit of this Packard Firsts thread. References, personal experiences, clarification, and above all, interesting discussion.Unfortunately, it seems "any excuse for a war" is the watchword for a few on the Packard forum. Not all, I'm sure, as the number of "views" to this thread would seem to attest. I think far too many of the viewers choose not to post their thoughts here because of those few who, in an attempt to dominate or protect their egos, insist that everything said is a personal affront to their expertise and deserving of a confrontational reply. A sad state of affairs.In the interest of inclusion, maybe it would be worthwhile to reiterate some of the guidelines that I originally thought would be helpful in discussing the list of "Packard Firsts."A portion of my reply to Ivan covers most of it:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that most U.S. manufacturers (and probably others in the world) claimed to be "first" with an item when they actually offered it on their regular production runs before the competition did. The major manufacturers probably were pretty well aware of what their competitors were doing, and touted what they were doing different or what was "new" on their cars and not offered elsewhere to the general public.This, I think, is the main source of lists of "firsts" attributed to any particular marque. Often, especially in early years, this meant "first in the U.S." for companies in this country, although they didn't always make that distinction. Also in early years, they might have qualified it as "first among major manufacturers" because they often couldn't know what somebody else had just made in a one-off or limited production run of cars.So, it's not always black and white, and as you say, it leads to "interesting discussion and gradual clarification," exactly the reasons I started the "Packard Firsts" thread. Unfortunately, it sometimes results in "vehement arguments and stubborn oneupmanship" amongst some individuals.One thing that might help, and I really tried to do this early on in the discussion of "Packard Firsts," is to set some reasonable criteria for making the claim of "first." Qualifiers such as:"First application in a production vehicle""First offered as standard equipment""First in U.S.""First patent""First among major manufacturers"Etc. etc.This is probably best done by qualifying individual items on the list as they fit certain criteria. The main thing is that they identify the manufacturer as forward-looking and innovative in their industry, being first to market with many practical advancements, some of which become "industry standard" in short order.Without some kind of qualifying criteria, discussion of a list such as this can turn into a search for minutiae and an interminable back-and-forth about what, exactly, the item is. For instance: What is a rumble seat? became one such argument. What is a station wagon (for Pete's sake) became another. What constitutes a full torsion bar suspension--this last finally had to be described as a "fully interconnected 4-wheel torsion bar suspension" to qualify to meet the standards of the "review board" of the Packard Firsts list.But, it's good to clarify terms and discuss the significance and true precedence of a technological advance. Even though the topic of "who did it first" lends itself to controversy, it should still be possible to discuss these things as items of interest and an opportunity for all to learn something about automobiles.</div></div>So, how about it? Anybody up for "interesting discussion and gradual clarification?"And what about considering some of the finer points, such as the fact that when Packard introduced the items on the list, they were generally considered, at least among the U.S. buying public (and Packard's competitors!), unique and inventive. And they were not simply offered in special-interest or custom-built (or very limited production) automobiles, but in the regular Packard production run, as amenities and engineering advances that came to be expected by the motoring public as a matter of course--from Packard first, and later from other manufacturers who often followed suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 GUY: First of alli I know that you are going to say that I am ranting & raving, but I beg to differ with you,becasue in the case of the first lists you are wrong.If you go back through and re-read my posts in this thread, you will find that I have made two contributions, but like other things I have had to say about the firsts list, you have ignored them, plain and simple.Of all the car makes that I admire Packard certainly is at the top of the list.However I will pay no lip sevice to any brand of car when false claims are made, such as the Packards First lists published by PI. To give a person or automaker credit for something they didn't do first,is truely unfair to the actual people they acomplished the feat first.You are correct in saying that anyone can make claims without giving any references, you seem to demand that I post references when I post information contrary to what you want to hear. The same can be also said of any car clubs that you want to name. So many popele think that what they print should be taken as the whole true nad nothing but the truth. In some past cases we have seen this isn't always the case. Now here is a direct challenge to you, please contact PI and ask them to list the references they have in their records which would varify the claims they have made, concerning the Packards First list. Heck invite them to come in the forum, and prove what I have posted about the list, as being false. I am pretty sure that my challenge to you will go un-answered.John F. Shireman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i am not done with the Packards First yet.</div></div> You know what puzzles me John, is why you seem so bent out of shape about this... and particularly why you seem NEVER to be able to come up with anything, out of all your wonderful "sources," that would ADD anything to a list that simply attempts to celebrate the achievements of the Packard marque?Oh yeah, now I remember, the original list (a mere starting point, vastly changed since, which came with absolutely no endorsement from me) originally appeared on (shudder) the PAC website. So, you take it upon yourself, because you have a personal beef with PAC and certain people at PAC, to do nothing here but rant and pontificate about how your superior intelligence will pick holes in anybody else's ideas on what to include in a list of bonafide Packard innovations. It seems strictly personal and all about winning some kind of contest.Well, OK John, you're better and smarter and wiser than anybody, and Packard didn't come up with anything.Here's a new list for you:"Packard Firsts"Packard first built cars some time in the 1890s, at least it's rumored that they did. All else is myth and fable. John S. says so, and he's an automotive historian with a great big library and he should know. The end.I'm sure you can find something wrong with that list, too. Have fun!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>Guy: In your first paragraph you made a false statement saying that I never seem to be able to come up with anything to add to the Packards First list. I would like to bring to your attention a post that I made on 5/22/06 number 383355 in this thread that you could have added to the Packards First list. The post I made reads as follows. Possible Packard first, in 1903 Packard set up the first factory school in auto engineering, with regular classes for emplyess, and soon expeanded the school to give a one month course in car maintenance and repair courses to Packard owner and chauffers.Source The World of Automobiles volume 14 published by Orbis publishing Limited London England.So please no more misleading statements about what I have done and not done, concerning the Packards First List.I am still waiting for a reply from you to my challegene, silence is certainly no answer, but maybe in this case it is.John F. Shireman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Sheesh guys (and to no one in particular), but really......this is a "hobby"...right?hobby: Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hob-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation?noun, plural -bies.1. an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation: Her hobbies include stamp-collecting and woodcarving. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Packard8: Maybe certain people should learn not come at me when what I have presented in the past concerning the Packards First list is true. My hobby has been for most of my life since grade school has been history. About 10 years ago, I started devoting my interest to the history of the car industry, and the great makes of cars built during the GOLDEN ERA and the coach builders of that time. I have read a heck of alot of books about the history of this industry. During this time I learned a great deal, enough to know that the Packard's First List preseneted by PI is greatly inflated and should be corrected by PI. So all i have mearly done is point out with facts were the list is wrong. Both Packard Clubs should be willing to presnet a true history of Packard that is not inflated, and taking away true credit from those people who actually deserve the credit.John F. Shireman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">taking away true credit from those people who actually deserve the credit.John F. Shireman </div></div>Well, I rest my case?. In making this forum your personal venue/soapbox for airing perceived grievances with car clubs that ?done you wrong?, you?ve probably run off more Packard hobbyists than PFH ever did.I hope you find some peace & closure in this matter, but realistically you may end up posting to yourself here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Packard8: My only comment to you is that in my view of things, you think it is ok for the two clubs in question to modify true automotive history, to inflate the reputation of Packard, at the expense of people like Howard C Marmon. Who I might add the automobile company he founded used aluminum crankcases long before Packard did on thier V12 engines. The when someone like myself comes along and prints the truth we get attacked by people like you, because we don't pay lip sevice to the clubs, or the brand of car we admire the most. Which in my case happens to be Packards.John F. ShiremanAny more responces to me please use the rants and raves section, then that won't give anyone a chance to say that I am using this thread to quote do any flamming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted October 5, 2006 Author Share Posted October 5, 2006 Gee, thanks Packard 8. I don't know exactly what-all has been said previously, but I think you just said it best... and YOU deserve the credit! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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