Packard "Firsts"

[Guest]

TO Brian & 55 Packard Guy: I am in no way trying to knock any of the honests firsts that Packard had accomplished, and am I not trashing Packards version of the torsion bar suspension.

55 Packard Guy. When I post something such as the challenges to some of the things on the list, YOU CAN BET YOUR BOTTOM DOLLAR THAT I CAN PROVIDE MY SOURCES

WHEN I NEED TO. However after making that statement I don't intend to waste my time on quoting sources every time when I challenge something. The only reason that I have been able to make challenges to this list of first, is because of the library I have, and the constant reading and research that I do, when it comes to autotive history.

I am going to take some time this week and back my statement about that Packard wasn't the first to use alloy pistons, and I will quote my source.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't intend to waste my time on quoting sources</div></div>

I'm just suggesting that it's very helpful when you do, and just generally a good idea when posting information gleaned from historical sources. I believe in always citing sources, even though sometimes it means that people question these sources, and it basically leaves the posts open to criticism. For example, I have at times cited the Kimes book and been told that it was "off" somehow or just unreliable in some ways. ALL sources can be questioned, that's why there is usually more than one cited to try to "prove" a point. All we have to go on is the preponderance of the evidence. Some will state that "they were there" and claim this as the final word, yet we know how that kind of information can also be inadvertantly or purposely distorted.

Looking forward to some info on your references.

[Guest]

About the claim of Packard being the first to introduce or use a rumble seat. I said that Nagant out of Belguim may have been first in 1908,you have asked for proof.I refer your attention to THE WORLD OF AUTOMOBILES AN ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPDIA OF THE MOTOR CAR,published by Orbis Publishing limited, London England 1974 distributed by Columbia House 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019 Go to volume 13 page 1482 picture on the right middle of the page. In my prior post I pretty well quoted the caption under the picture as far as information pertaining to the automobile. The contributing author was David Burgess Wise.

The next myth that I will clear up, is who used alloy pistons first Packard or W. O. Bently

[WCraigH]

Well, for those who believe that the facts that the History Channel presents are reliable, on the show "Modern Marvels: Fire & Ice" wrt to Packard first #20:

"Auto manufacturers raced to see who could be the first air conditioned car. The winner could reap millions in sales. On November 14, 1939 at the Chicago Auto Show, Packard Motor Company [sic] surprised the industry by exhibiting the first air conditioned car. The A/C unit used freon as a refrigerant, which worked much the same way as home units..."

[cool snip of a lovely young women in blue with a wide brim hat sensually running her hand over the grille of a 1940 Packard] <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

P.S. I got the quotes verbatim thanks to TiVo.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">whoever chose to compile that list</div></div>

The people credited with the article containing the list are REFERENCED in my posting of the list! <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"A short story about the beginning of the Packard saga with the Warren era written by Roger T. White, descendant of G. L. Weiss, Co-Founder"</div></div> As far as "cutting and pasting," I've already stated that this could not be done with the original, and I HAD to re-type it.

Packard53,

I was more interested in your reference sources for the statements about European vehicles using various forms of torsion bar suspension. I think that "rumble seat" will always be a difficult one to pin down, because of the difficulty defining what constitutes a "rumble seat." I believe the term itself is an American one, making it difficult for European makes to claim it.

Encyclopedias are general reference sources and not marque-specific, so I'm a little reluctant to go by them. Not saying it's wrong, just that in the good old days of term papers, we were never allowed to cite them as our only source.

When you get down to it, there are a lot of controversies over historical "facts" that have been published in history books for generations. New information is found and the original data is questioned. Such is "living" history. I don't see any attempt here to "re-write" any history, but to clarify it and maybe question some prevailing beliefs. Unfortunately, it seems that some of our most accurate history has to do with wars, because the various militaries are usually such sticklers for record-keeping. (Although they've been known to "fudge" too.)

Rather than proceeding from here strictly with an aim to "debunk" things, with a rather aggressive edge to the process, why not do a little looking around for some interesting possibilities for more "Packard Firsts?" Or have we entirely exhausted the possibilities for more "Firsts" and want to focus on figuring out what somebody else said that might have been wrong? It seems like a lot of that activity has mostly to do with finding fault, particularly with anything that comes from PAC.

That doesn't seem like much fun to me.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Well, for those who believe that the facts that the History Channel presents are reliable, on the show "Modern Marvels: Fire & Ice" wrt to Packard first #20:

"Auto manufacturers raced to see who could be the first air conditioned car. The winner could reap millions in sales. On November 14, 1939 at the Chicago Auto Show, Packard Motor Company [sic] surprised the industry by exhibiting the first air conditioned car. The A/C unit used freon as a refrigerant, which worked much the same way as home units..."

[cool snip of a lovely young women in blue with a wide brim hat sensually running her hand over the grille of a 1940 Packard]

P.S. I got the quotes verbatim thanks to TiVo.

--------------------

Panther Project: http://www.1956PackardPanther.com

</div></div>

Cool <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

With regards to your last paragraph:

You are absolutely right. But, historical study of any topic is always controversial when studied indepth. Difficult to have controversy without someone debunking details at some point.

With the automobiles we have the added concern over technical matters still in process today. FACTORY service info (STB's and SC's for instance) have their own controversial content to the extent that they seem to hedge and in several cases actualy contradict themselves. Not much fun to debunk claims?????? Alot LESS fun to to take them to heart, spend many hours and dollars based on their content as "bible" and only to find out the problem still exists. Consider the oiling problems of the V8 as one example.

One of the major lines of seperation among owners that is not always obvious is the seperation between the trailor queen set and the driver set. Things that work for the trailor queen crowd just won't cut it for the driver crowd and visa-versa. There are those that want to to preserve history according to books, documentation, and personal investment. Then there are those that want objectivity and progressive success with their cars regardless of who or what gets debunked.

[Guest]

Guy: Let me start off by stating that I am not fault finding or did I ever in this thread take a swing at PAC in any way. I might also remind you that you asked me to start stating were I have obtained my information, which I started doing. Now it seems that you want to move the ball in a different direction, when I can backup what I have written. I could care less if the aurthor Mr. White was related to Joe Stalin, the fact remains that the list has several mistakes in it, and maybe should be corrected.

The so called PAC elite always maintain that Packards should remain pure with no modifications, and look down their noses at people who do choose to modify Packards. Since they maintain this attitude,it should also be the same for the presentation of Packard history presented on the PAC web site.

Another member posted that he though Willys might have produced the first all steel station wagon. How correct his is.. The first all steel American station wagon body was introduced in 1946 by Willys.. Some people list the Willys wagon as station sendan just like Packard did, other list it as a station wagon. Reference sources that I hav are four, but I will only list one, if the need arises I will list the other three that I have in my library. Reference source STANDARD CATALOG OF 4X4s 1945 TO 2000 WRITTEN BY ROBERT C ACKERSON, PUBLISHED BY KRAUSE PUBLICATIONS.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WRT to aluminum heads on cast iron block, I don't know the history leading up to that, but the years since seem to have proven that implementation to be troublesome. In the '70s, Chevrolet used a cast-iron head on an aluminum four cylinder block in the Chevy Vega which had plenty of problems, but its cooling system is admittedly marginal. However, Chrysler used aluminum heads on their four cylinder cars in the 1980s and they too were prone to head gasket leaks. IMHO, using two such different metals with such dramatically different rates of thermal expansion is probably not a good idea.

Perhaps someone else can expound further upon that aspect.</div></div>

There is certainly no shortage of examples of 4-cylinder cast iron engine blocks with aluminum heads, and also V8's with this combination (basically, two 4-cylinder heads on one engine). I recall that many Japanese cars used this combination on 4-cylinder engines with some success, although valve inserts tended to drop out. None of these engines had an aluminum head that covered anywhere near the expanse that the Packard aluminum head did. This would seem to compound the problem of expansion rates and call for a very careful design.

The question is, I guess, were the Packard straight eight aluminum heads an engineering feat, or "probably not a good idea?" And, were they a "first?" What is their record in terms of reliability and longevity?

Hearing some more from people with experiences with Packard's aluminum head eight cylinder engines would great!

How we got onto Chevy Vegas in comparison with Packards is beyond me... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[55PackardGuy]

PackardV8,

Points taken. My "no fun" statement was meant in reference to the discussion becoming more focused on finding fault than on finding probable "Firsts." Misinformation is never good, however I don't think that arguing over the Final Word and angrily attacking information is productive either.

I think lots of people would like to be the Unquestioned Authority, but when you see how the Authorities can be wrong, it makes you wary. I like to go into these discussions with the attitude that I have something to learn, and also the right to be skeptical. I think that making contributions to the discussion with some sense of fallability ("this is what I found out and where I found it, and I think it's true") leads to productive discussion and finding a consensus.

I hope that what we consider to be History in the free world is what is agreed upon based on the preponderance of the evidence, not subject to the dictates of a controlling source.

[Guest]

The first production car to use a firberclass body was the Woody Woodill Wildfire produced from 1952 till 1956. These bodies were built by Glasspar Company, which was founded in 1950 by Bill Tritt in 1950.

Dutch Darrin the great car designer designed in 1946 a two door sports car that was believed to be the first attemept to use fiberglass to build a car. The car that Darrin designed only had four body peices.

I obtained this information from two written sources that I have in my library

[Guest]

A PACKARD FIRST: On August 24, 1911 a Packard Model TC set a distance weight record, by being the first truck to cross the American continent under a full load of three tons on its own power. The TC went from new York to San Francisco in 46 days. Now this part maybe wrong but the Packard truck used Good Year Tires and was nick named the WING FOOT EXPRESS.

Now as to who was the first to use aluminium pistons the list states that Packard was the first in 1915.

In 1912 W.O. Bentley went into the car business selling a French car. The refernce called Doriot, Flander& Parant. The name was shorted in Britain to DFP. In 1912 or 1913 Bentley visited the DFP factory in France, noticed an aluminium paper weight in the shape of a piston on the desk of one the

owners of the car company.. Bentley had some full sized aluminium pistons made, found they gave more power and speed. The car that these new alloy pistons where used in was the DFP 12/40 speed model. Bentley was the first on the English market to use in a production model. Bentley entered a DFP 12/40 model in the Isle of man Tourists Trophey Race in June of 1914 and finished in 6th place. The reference book that I obtained this information from was THE WORLD OF AUTOMOBILES, which I have quoted from before.

[Guest]

GUY: It only seems fitting that since you obtained permission, from the PAC webmaster to publish the list of Packard Firsts, that you might inform him that the list is incorrect. Maybe Mr. Katz might be interested in correcting this list of so called firsts, thus presenting a true list of Packard Firsts. I would also like to say that if someone from PAC can refute my findings I will be the first one to say that I was wrong. Despite the list being incorrect this will never change my love for Packards.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Mr. Katz was glad to have my assistance to redo the 55-56 trim codes for the reference portion of the PAC website. Volunteer work is always appreciated and when you can document errors or omissions I'm sure he would be glad to upgrade the PAC site.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Guest]

Guy: This might be a possible Packard First to include in the list. While reading volume 14 of the World of Automobiles An Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Motor Car. On page 1616 reading about the history of Packard, the author wrote ( In 1903 Packard set up the first factory school in auto engineering with regular classes for the employees. So after this the class was soon expanded to give a one month course in car maintenance and repair to Packard owner and chaufferurs). I though this was very interesting

[55PackardGuy]

I wonder if any other manufacturer offered reversible seat cushions before or after Packard did in the Caribbean? This wouldn't exactly be a momentous engineering "first" but would be a unique styling touch.

In spite of the length of the original list of "firsts" I think that there have been some legitimate suggestions made here for additions, including the torque converter clutch. That seems to me to be very significant since it was quite successful, and because attempts to revive the idea by other manufacturers didn't come again for another 20+ years, and it proved to be difficult for them to emulate it successfully. It's also significant because it has become so widespread now as to be practically "standard" in automatic transmissions.

[Guest imported_Packards1]

My first Packard was a 1954 Caribbean. I sold it two years after I bought it with an ad in the sunday detroit news. After the deal was made, the "buyer" then told me he worked for Ford Motor Company and they would pay me. I delivered the car to their transmission plant in Livonia, MI. I asked why they wanted the Packard and they told me that the wanted to study a working direct drive lockup torque converter that they could drive. They kept the car for about a year and a half sold it through a local auto auction house. They did re upholster it and and make a couple of other improvements to the car. It was interesting to see Ford marketing "automatic overdrive" a couple of years later. i'm guessing this happened in about 1975. Joel

[55PackardGuy]

That's an interesting piece of first-hand history!

One thing that Packard definitely did not do first, and I don't think they EVER did it, was to offer electric wipers. This puzzles me coming from a company that seemed eager to apply superior technology wherever they could. I'm working on a '47 Dodge that came with standard electric wipers!

Anyone have ideas why Packard was so reluctant to use electric wipers, even to the point that they designed a special oil pump that incorporated a vaccuum booster and seems to have caused no end of complications? (This pump design was probably a "first"--and last, too.) I don't mean to cast stones, I just find it curious that they would go to such lengths to accommodate an outdated design when there was a readily available alternative.

[Guest cnbed]

Packard DID use an electric wiper motor on the 1940-42 juniors, and on the 1941-47 Clippers. The 1940-42 seniors stayed with the vacuum units.

[Guest JT]

I don't know that they work any better but I always thought it strange that the jr's had electric wipers in 40 while the sr's didn't.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Some one here correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Borg-Warner also had a direct-drive lockup torque convertor. I'm on vacation and can't check any manuals, but perhaps Packard and Borg-W developed it in same time frame.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe Borg-Warner also had a direct-drive lockup torque convertor</div></div>

Yes, they did... and it was based on the Packard Ultramatic's!

"The direct-drive clutch was the single most distinguishing feature of the Ultramatic...

Borg-Warner later used its direct-drive clutch principle in its own unit (sold to Studebaker until 1956, and to Jaguar for many years thereafter). So did GM's own transmissions for buses. In 1974, under pressure for greater fuel economy, manufacturers began taking another look at Ultramatic's principles, Chrysler having direct lock-up back on the road by 1978."*

...and by some accounts, Chrysler's first attempts at a direct-drive clutch were markedly less succesful than the Ultramatic's design.

*From "Packard, A History of the Motor Car and the Company" Beverly Rae Kimes, Editor, 1978, Automobile Quarterly, Inc., pp. 537-538.

[55PackardGuy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first Packard was a 1954 Caribbean. I sold it two years after I bought it with an ad in the sunday detroit news. After the deal was made, the "buyer" then told me he worked for Ford Motor Company and they would pay me. I delivered the car to their transmission plant in Livonia, MI. I asked why they wanted the Packard and they told me that the wanted to study a working direct drive lockup torque converter that they could drive. They kept the car for about a year and a half sold it through a local auto auction house. They did re upholster it and and make a couple of other improvements to the car. It was interesting to see Ford marketing "automatic overdrive" a couple of years later. i'm guessing this happened in about 1975. Joel </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"In 1974, under pressure for greater fuel economy, manufacturers began taking another look at Ultramatic's principles..."</div></div>

Take a look at the dates--it seems that Joel had a first-hand experience of a manufacturer that was "taking another look" at the Ultramatic... by buying his Packard. That's taking a very close look, isn't it? When Ford needed a "better idea" it bought a 20-year-old Packard to find it. What a nice compliment. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[K8096]

"First Glove compartment in instrument panel"

What year are they talking about? I think this claim is questionable too.

[55PackardGuy]

Don't know. If anyone knows, please post. All the Packard experts are supposed to be on this forum! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

As for the claim that Packard was the first to introduce the steering wheel I say NO.

In doing some reading and research I have found that three other auto firm bet packard to the punch. One such car being the French Panhard, the model being the 1899 B1. The other was the French Rochet Schnieder voiturette of 1899. The person that was certainly first to introduce the steeting wheel on a car in America was George Seldon on his three cylinder tourer of 1877. In all three cases I can provide pictures of alll three autos.

Now for the claim that Packard was the first to introduce an light alloy crank case, this being on the Packard 12 of 1915, thats a buch of bull also. If my research is right Rolls Royce, used a light alloy crank case back around 1907 on their Silver Ghost engines.

The funny thing about all of this is that Stuart Blond hepled compile a a story on Packard History that was published on the internet in 1999. Knows that some of the claims in the Packard first lists are false. One instance in the article under 1915 it is stated that Packard introducing the V12, was amoung the first in American to used light alloy pistons and crankcase not the first. I will state that I can furnish proof of this, if required to do so.

It is clearly time that the list be changed.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Joel. Based on your experience as a Packard vendor, how many 55 and 56 Packard and Clippers combined are extant??? Just a total. No need for model breakdown. Just a total.

[55PackardGuy]

"What the foregoing description [of the 1900 Packard Model "B"] did not include,of course, was the historic significance of some of the Packard features. Though it is a dangerouse course always to state categorically that someone was first with something--someone else might come along and discover an earlier "first"--it is not irresponsible to note the areas in which the Packard pioneered. The automatic spark advance, for example, was a feature not to become common on other automobiles for a number of years--and note should also be made of the rotating governor built into the automatic spark, which at maximum speed would pull the rotating cam on the shaft beyond the point of contact so as to stop the spark. (The rotating cam also had a tapering operative face, to bring the wider portion of the cam into operation as the speed increased and the narrower portion as the speed decreased.) The "H" gear slot, patented by Packard, would become the most generally used pattern in years to come. And certainly not many vehicles of that era could boast a foot pedal to control engine speed." <span style="font-style: italic">Packard a History of the Motor Car and the Company</span>, Beverly Rae Kimes ed., copyright 1978 Automobile Quarterly, page 38-39.

This seems to sum up nicely the idea that it's difficult to state absoutely that an automobile manufacturer was the "first" to introduce any particular feature. It also gives some supporting evidence for the automatic spark advance and "H" shift pattern (including patent) "firsts" from the list posted here from the PAC forum.

The fact that Packard pioneered many innovative features and put them into production early on, introducing them to mainstream automotive use in the U.S. and probably elsewhere, is testimony to the philosophy of sound engineeering and continuous improvement that helped put Packard on the map as one of the great early marques. The fact that this philosophy continued all the way through Packard's last years, in spite of dwindling resources, attests to the company's legacy of innovation.

Compiling information and evidence about the pioneering atuomotive efforts of Packard is a way of honoring that legacy. Any list of these accomplishments should probably be divided into categories, including patented inventions, documented first applications in the industry, first applications in the U.S., early adoption, and special innovations that did not become widely applied in the industry but were exclusive to Packard and proven to be reliable and useful (such as the Torsion Level suspension).

For instance, an in-dash glove box could have appeared spontaneously in a lot of forms, including simple storage bins attached to the dash. But how many manufacturers included two built-in compartments, one on each side of the dash for passenger and driver, as standard equipment? Packard did, at least as early as the 1930s.

Sometimes, "who did it first" isn't as important as who made it practical and useful. Like, does the credit for the first "cup holder" go to whoever put those little round dents in the sheet metal of the glove box door, or was it someone who put one that could actually hold something in a postition convenient to the driver? Not that cup holders are my favorite invention. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lots of automotive manufacturers were good innovators. Packard seems to be unique in its ongoing pursuit of excellent design and manufacture, and its success at offering improvements that were useful and well received. There were noticeable differences in a Packard that consumers and other manufactures recognized, and they often came to be accepted standards because Packard consistently offered them and improved them. The hypoid gear differential comes to mind.

From an article in "Automotive Industries," a trade publication, circa 1926:

"...Packard is the first automobile company to put [hypoid differential gears] into regular production." <span style="font-style: italic">ibid.</span> page 265.

Making this innovation a standard offering effectively encouraged automobile manufactuers to lower body floors, so overall height of cars could be reduced, thus lowering the center of gravity. It also got rid of that nasty "gear whine."

All in a day's work for Packard.

[Guest cnbed]

As the 1955-56 Roster Keeper (since 1982) I have been keeping track of as many V-8s as I can find. This listing is current as of June 6, and is compiled from the cars that myself or others have reported to me. As you can see, many more "Seniors" are still around, even though many more Clippers were produced. The "???" listing is for cars where I have information such as the ID number / paint / trim codes, but not the condition. Hope this helps (and is readable, as it came from a WORD file).

EXCELLENT VERY GOOD GOOD FAIR POOR SCRAPPED ??? TOTAL

5522 5 4 14 11 6 8 25 73

5542 5 13 20 19 9 9 28 103

5547 2 15 17 9 8 6 21 78

5562 4 14 27 15 17 5 23 105

5567 5 7 26 14 9 6 17 84

5582 29 26 51 41 43 24 38 252

5587 27 35 37 32 34 25 32 221

5588 55 27 34 22 17 7 32 194

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOTAL

1955 132 + 141 + 226 + 163 + 143 + 90 + 216 = 1,111

===========================================================================

5622 4 8 11 12 8 8 21 72

5642 5 8 14 22 9 7 22 87

5647 5 2 19 10 7 6 14 63

5662 2 5 8 5 6 3 4 33

5667 3 4 9 3 3 2 6 30

5672A 3 10 9 11 10 5 7 55

5677A 7 10 9 11 9 6 7 59

5682 23 43 49 30 25 24 28 222

5687 28 31 41 31 25 19 75 250

5697 17 13 13 14 9 15 16 97

5699 53 26 22 17 10 8 140 276

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOTAL

1956 151 + 160 + 204 + 166 + 122 + 103 + 340 = 1,245

===========================================================================

TOTAL

BOTH 282 + 301 + 430 + 328 + 265 + 193 + 556 = 2,355

YEARS

EXCELLENT VERY-GOOD GOOD FAIR POOR SCRAPPED ??? TOTAL

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Now, I'm Wondering if my 5642-1774 is in your list ??? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If it is, it's Condition should be Upgraded a few notches. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[55PackardGuy]

cnbed,

Thanks for posting the V8 Packards roster on the "humble" Packard Firsts thread! It would be great to get numbers for other surviving Packards if they are available. They could become part of a "Packard Survivors" thread. Or "Packard Lasts"--get it? They last.

Also fair game for "firsts" are first applications of a design for Packard.

Trivia question: When was Packard's very first V8 introduced?

[Guest]

55PackardGuy:No matter how you slice it or dice it, or what kind of different slants you try putting on the Packard Firsts Lists. THIS LIST CLEARLY IS IN NEED OF A MAJOR REWRITE.

Since you are the one who obtained permision from Katz to publish this list, contact him and tell him the list is very flawed, and ask him if he would be willing to change the list, then give us his answer. I might ad that I sent him an email several weeks ago offering my help, but still haven't recieived a response

[Guest]

LIST OF CARS USING A STEERING WHEEL IN AMERICA IN 1901 AND PRIOR YEARS.

1895 Spahr Runabout, Millerberg Ohio

1896 Bird Motor Trap Auto Buggy, Buffalo New York

1899 Columbia Mark VIII, Hartford Connecticut

1901 Gasmobile Phaeton, Marion New Jersey

1901 Frisbe Roadster, Middletown Connecticut

1901 Fey Touring, Northfield Minnesota

1901 Crestmobile Model C, Cambridge Massachusetts

1901 Automotor, Springfield Massachusetts

1901 Winton Runabout, Cleveland Ohio

55PackardGuy: Just wondering if you have tried contacting Katz about the Packard Firsts list, and have you gotten an answer

[Guest]

In 1925 Stutz started using hydraulic brakes on thier cars. The hydraulic brakes operated on a mixture of water and alcohal. In 1931 Stutz introduced VARIABLE BOOSTER BRAKE which could be used to alter the amount of servo-assistance given to the hydraulic brake on the Stutz. I think this might be consider, power hydraulic brakes, thus making claim number 18 on the Packard Firsts List kind of doubt full.

Another American automobile, to use a steering wheel, in 1901 was the Stearns Automobile Company of Cleveland Ohio. This automobile firm was founded by Frank B. Stearns around 1898 or 1899.

[Guest Silverghost]

Packard was a Great Co.

They had many "Firsts"

BUT>>>

USA built Rolls~Royce Springfield had the First Full Chassis Lubrication system made by Bijur 1927

Thermostatic automatic radiator shutters 1926

Hydraulic shocks 1925

Governor "Cruise Control" 1921

Power brakes Foreward +Reverse

I have a Rolls~Royce that has all of the above!!!

Edited December 13, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[K8096]

1926 Stutz had central lube system, I forgot what it was called, but it was before the bijur system. It took engine oil & sent it to various chassis fittings. I've seen it on several 1926/1927 AA Stutzes.

[Guest Albert]

Harley Davidson has had a central lube system for a lot longer, Motors leak and oil every thing else on the bike... If it not leaking it's out of oil...

[55PackardGuy]

Silverghost, some questions on your RR list, just trying to clarify...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Power brakes Foreward +Reverse</div></div>

What year did RR introduce power brakes? And why the forward+reverse designation? Would there be any way to have power brakes only in one direction? The PAC list gives Packard's introduction date as 1936, but this could have been referring to a "first" in U.S. automobiles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hydraulic shocks 1925</div></div>

The PAC list cites 1926 as Packard's introduction date. Maybe "first in U.S." as well. Also, it's another one of those model-year designation situations, since it's so close to the RR intro date of 1926.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Governor "Cruise Control" 1921</div></div>

I don't believe this was on the PAC list. Did you see it on another one of the Packard "firsts" lists?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Thermostatic radiator shutters 1926</div></div>

I thought that these were around earlier than 1933, even on U.S. cars, but the PAC list shows Packard as first "standard" use of them in 1933. Although I imagine everything on RR would be considered standard equipment. Did RR ever really have "options" or was every car pretty much "loaded" with everything available?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Packard was a Great Co. They had many "Firsts"</div></div>

Absolutely! The point of this thread has been to encourage clarification and corrections of the lists compiled by others (particularly the PAC list) encourage verifiable additions, and celebrate the many bonafide original contributions to the advancement of automobile technology that Packard engineers made over the years. Thanks for your comments!

[SafeTFlex]

I am confused about the representation that "Packard had a "first" with power brakes in 1936 and radiator shutters in '33". What am I missing here? Who would make a representations that daffy ? One of the Packard Clubs ? Or one of our "posters" ? Or the old guy in one of the recent Packard publicatons who claimed Packard had no factory options - they were all installed by this guy at a dealership, or that a "Packard Twelve wheel wighed 150 lbs..." ?

Obviously, anyone who has actual experience with such matters knows Packard and many other luxury car manufacturers had these features LONG before the above silliness.

I just balanced the wheels on my own Packard Twelve, and I assure you the damn things FEEL like they are getting heavier every year - probably way over 50,000 lbs each now........! (about 75 lbs, actually,..!)

Where DOES all this funny stuff get started ?

Say, Brad - did the American Ghosts have a lever to control the Winterfronts on the dash, like our American Phantoms do ?

[SafeTFlex]

RE "POWER" brakes -

Rolls in both the English and American versions, went a different route than most American manufacturers.

In this country, our manufacturers used engine vacuum to provide assist for the brakes - cant say for sure when this went into mass production, but I know it was already standard in Packards in the early thirties, and stayed until the end of "Senior" production with the destruction of the so called "Senior" plant in June 1939. Packard didn't go back to vacuum assist power brakes until late '52. With either the mechanical brakes of the early - mid thirties, or the hydraulic brakes on the later Twelves, this system is superb, providing precise excellent "feel", and reduced driver input effort. Interestingly, while my '38 Packard Twelve had this feature, my Cadillac V-16 did not, so that some increase in pedal pressure (not that much, but some) was required to produce the same stopping power.

As for the Rolls, they used engine mechanical effort to assist the brakes - a quite complex mechanism at the back of the transmission, using out-put shaft energy to assist. The Rolls system provides absolutely incredible braking - not sure when Rolls went to four wheel brakes, but i can tell you that our Springfield, which was delivered in 1928, has stopping power with practically no effort at all, that I would match against just about any modern car.

Two entirely different concepts - with the same result - a "feel" and safe braking unknown to the ordinary cars of that era.