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Packard "Firsts"


55PackardGuy

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Guest bkazmer

French and Italian designs are very different. How would this group react to saying Packard and Cadillac designs were the same? French cars of the era, and Citroën in particular, tend to have lots of body roll. Italian cars tend to use firm and mechanically-based( as opposed to fluid) suspensions. Can't disagree with the Fiat comments, but I think the Alfa designs hold up very well (although their 2nd gear synchos don't)and have strong engines (aluminum OHC) and 4 speed gearboxes. Lancia also.

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The reason I thought mybe you were interested in the car because the person who is bidding on the car uses the handle "packard 53" I tried to email you first, but the email adress didn't work. I agree 100% with you about buying a car sight unseen thats just plan CRAZY . I also have my hands full with 3 cars . take care Joe

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RE: "Alfa designs hold up very well (although their 2nd gear synchos don't)and have strong engines (aluminum OHC) and 4 speed gearboxes. Lancia also."

I have an Alfa (1988 Spider) and I love it. I also have a 1955 Packard. Comparing the two is meaningless--they are both cars but that is where the simularity ends. One is a toy, the other luxary transportation for a family. However the engineering of the Alfa is far superior to the Packard (also made 1/3 of a century later!!!).

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Guy: I to have exchanged private emails with Jack about his racing days. I realy think that the whole Packard world should know about what Jack did with racing Packards, but I doubt that will ever happen. I had stated one time before that the editors of the TCP should do a story on Jack. Here is a fellow that probably did more with Packards than Brad Berry did. Jack could also tell about the history of two Packard dealerships that he worked for. I sure that working for English Motors in the state capital, he would have alot of interesting stories. I doubt that a story about Jack would appear in the TPC for a couple of reasons. First of all the editor would have to have someone do all the leg work, to make arrangmenets for him to get the the story. Second a story about Jack wouldn't present the editor a chance to give his employer alot of free publicity

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Guest Randy Berger

The insulting snide remarks are exactly what keep several good contributors off this forum. It lowers the whole tone of these discussions. I doubt Mr. Harlin appreciates having his name coupled to that style of back-handed remark.

YFAM, Randy Berger

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Guest imported_PackardV8

BH wrote:

"I was wondering if another automaker had taken a stab at a fully-interconnected torsion bar system, but I see now "

YES!!! YES!!! that is exactly the issue that needs to be solved here so we can put to rest whether the Packard T/L is truly unique to 55-56 Packard or if it is "just a another version" of torsion bar suspension that some people continue to claim. It is the continued claim that the 55-56 Packard TL is a minor variation of other suspension sytems that aggrevates the daylites out iof me.

Packard53 NOTE CAREFULLY: " fully-interconnected torsion bar system" as very well described by BH.

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Guest imported_Packards1

I haven't been to France but the Germans have. They used old 1940 Mercedes products to go all the way across the country in a few days.

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Guest imported_PackardV8

Yep, the Germans did that. Had several years to gear up for it too. They had to recruit (conquer) Poland for help to do it too.

SO WhaT!!!!!!!!!

The US went full speed ahead into 24-7 war time production NOT before Dec 7 1941. The US cobbled together a conglomeration of dodge 6 cyl engines and Ford flatheads into butchered up army tanks not much better than a armoured bulldozer. Same applies to aircraft and ships and nearly all other supplies not to mention .45's left over from WWI.

OH. BY the way. The US beat the [@!#!$] out of two world powers on two fronts with such cobbled up quick and dirty equipment.

Whats with all of u wanting to brag about european engineering anyway???? What do any of u think US WWII war production was???? Just a lucky break or something????

I've seen very little come out of europe that could be considered such high quality engineering or revolutionary. Most of it is just high priced slightly better than average products and in some cases not as good.

With the exception of the VW beetle and to some extent Jag, the rest of eurpean production is just high priced, marginaly better at best, People Magazine promotions.

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I hope we're not going to start fighting WWII all over again here.

Did Packard have any military production "firsts?" There were certainly plenty of aircraft engines in WWI and WWII, plus the PT marine engines.

What were the major innovations that Packard was responsible for in their military products?

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PACKARDS1 AND PACKARDV8: Concerning both your last posts in this thread, THEY ARE JUST PLAIN DUMB AND SHOWING A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IN CERTAIN AREAS OF HISTORY. Mainly WWII and automotive history in general. If either one of you would like to engage me in this thread on either matter please do so.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't been to France but the Germans have. They used old 1940 Mercedes products to go all the way across the country in a few days. </div></div>

You should really go to France sometime; it is a beautiful country! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Guest BigKev

How did Packard "Firsts" turn into the "My opinion of WWII" Thread? If I want to rehash WWII, i'll turn to the History Channel!

:P

On the "Firsts" topic. I have an electronic (scanned) copy of the 1954 "Packard and Packard Clipper Facts Booklet" that was given to all the salesmen of the day, that states the "Electric Opertated Antenna" (aka Power Antenna) was pioneered by Packard.

I have this Booklet as a PDF that was made from a Color Scan of the original booklet. Pretty interesting reading from the salemen perspective. It's a really big PDF (146 pages, and 90+ Megs in size). But if anyone wants a copy let me know.

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Guest Randy Berger

I don't hink I ever heard Packard was first in the power antenna department, but our 1952 Mayfair did have a power antenna on the left front fender that worked well. Does anyone know why Packard put the antennas on the left fender rather than the right? If it's a power antenna, why not put it on the right out of the field of vision?

YFAM, Randy Berger

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Guest imported_Speedster

It may have been that being on left it would be easyer for driver to get to, if it were a manual antenna, and since manual antennas were on left they just put them all on left to keep it standard and it was closer to switch mounted in dash (shorter wires).

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How did Packard "Firsts" turn into the "My opinion of WWII" Thread? If I want to rehash WWII, i'll turn to the History Channel!</div></div>

Many times on this forum threads move onto other topics e.g. "What I did to improve my Packard ..." became longer segments as a topic of correct wheel colour . To make you feel better I deleted mine re WW2. BTW I wouldn't rely on the History Channel as a source for historical information either as it can be quite biased and misleading much of the time. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Randy,

Maybe they wanted to make it more fun for the driver to watch it go up and down! LOL.

As I've posted elsewhere, the thing most remarked upon by the buyer of our '55 400 was the working power antenna! What a great sales tool--and practical, too.

BigKev,

I'd love to see that Booklet, but have a paltry dial-up connection. If you e-mailed it to me as a PDF, I'm afraid it would take all day for me to open it! Maybe you can post it somewhere somehow? Or make an attachment of it on this thread?

Once again, I agree we don't need to start fighting the war all over again here. Let's keep it to Packard "firsts," although some military firsts from Packard would certainly be appropriate.

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Guest imported_Speedster

I know that not all Packards had antenna on left side, cause my '37 Senior has it on Right side.

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Guest Albert

I just read in the Commorent that Packard was also the first to use two way radio communications in and aircraft, did this when they where testing the diesel powered aircraft at the Proving grounds.

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Guest BigKev

For those that want to see it, I have put a lower res version of the "1954 Facts Book - Packard and Packard Clipper" salesmen handbook out temporarly for viewing:

http://www.prism-software.com/kev/1954_Facts_Book.pdf

I have been told that these where what the salesmen carried with them, and could flip through it and show potential customers various pieces of information.

This not only includes pictures and specs for every model from 1954, but it also explains a lot of the different technologies in the car. Everything from the Engine, Ultramatic, Suspension, Radio, A/C, etc. Also the last page has a nice little writeup on the proving grounds. It's a nice read for anyone interested in Packards. I can leave it up for a few days, if anyone has a server they want to host it on, let me know.

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Guest BigKev

Yes there is for sure a lot of sales spin in that booklet, I guess that was its point. I like how they don't talk about the performance between the head designs, but rather go to the classic salesman approach of: "Well their **INSERT SUPERIOR PRODUCT DESIGN HERE** has lots of moving parts that can fail, ours is a more robust design". What a difference a year makes.

Actually that is one of the reasons I like my Clipper. It's easy to wrench on. I would never try to change the headgasket on my Honda Civic, but on the Clipper, it's a no brainer.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes there is for sure a lot of sales spin in that booklet, I guess that was its point. I like how they don't talk about the performance between the head designs, but rather go to the classic salesman approach of: "Well their **INSERT SUPERIOR PRODUCT DESIGN HERE** has lots of moving parts that can fail, ours is a more robust design". What a difference a year makes. </div></div>

In the early Ultramatic description they give the marketing spin to the lack of a trans dipstick by saying.."the fluid is checked from underneath, no serviceman ever has to enter your car". <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Brain, there are some of my friends that have been VERY LUCKY, and the car was actually nicer than the pictures ,BUT, most of the cars are NOT I went to buy a Stude lark many years ago in Florida that was susposed to be NICER than the pictures and owner stated that the car was "rust free" when I got there the car had great chorme but it had rust holes in the roof!! and it didn't start!! but he said I should make him an offer!! BTW are you going to Perrsyburg? Joe

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With regard to the first all steel station wagon, according to Bill W, Chrysler claimed its Plymouth for 1949 was the first. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Jeep wagon. I recall riding in one in 1948 or '49. Willys Overland built it, and it was all steel. If you wanted to stretch things a bit, you might even say it is the grand grandfather of the SUV. Kaiser bought Willys and brought out a larger wagon, the Wagonier I believe it was called. It was much larger and heavier. AMC bought Kaisr to get Jeep, then Chrysler bought AMC, probably for the same reason. At any rate, it looks as if the Jeep wagon evolved into what we now call "SUV".

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Another "non-automotive first" mentioned on the PAC site is the Packard factory, which it says was the first reinforced concrete factory building. They give the date as 1905.

The dealer's Facts Book was verrry interesting. Quite a read. I can't imagine that much of the technical stuff could be used to actually sell the cars to John or Jayne Q. Public, though. That rear-shelf speaker shown was just like I remembered the one on our 400, with the mounting frame above the shelf. It would suggest that this was the "factory" arrangement, at least in 1954.

The information on the straight eights was eye-opening. The L-head may have been a "dated" design, but I doubt if anyone could say they did it better than Packard. I'd love to drive a '54 with the big 359. I bet it pulls like a steam engine.

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Guest Albert

The 359 does have tons of torque, I surprise a lot of people with the 54 Patrician the way it can pull away and they are very quiet and smooth at it only idles at 450 rpm you can almost count the fan blades with it running. I was even accused of running 12V at the Nationals last year becaused it started too quickly for 6V, but opening the hood quickly dispelled that.

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Those big straight eights are so smooth and torquey I can leave a stoplight in 3rd gear just about as smoothly as in first and routinely start in second as first is such a "short" gear" anyway. of course the 4:11 ratio diif. helps also but the smoothness off idle is quite remarkable. The 105lb.crankshaft has a lot of momentum <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Just a couple of notes on Packard firsts

The first car to have torsion bar suspension was an English 1921 Leyland. In Europe by 1952 twenty two different makes of automobiles used torsion bar suspension.

In 1951 Mercedes introduced a six passenger 300 series car. This car used auxiliary torsion bars on the rear suspension to increase rear suspension rates when carrying heavy leads. The auxiliary torsions bars were controled by an electric motor actived from the driver compartment by a switch. Packard's suspension system had to be the most advanced.

The first rumble seat may have been introduced in Belgium in 1908. The body with a rumble seat on a custom body designed by Laurie and Marner, this body was mounted on a Nagant- Hobson 40 horse power chassis. This car was exhibited at the 1908 Olympia Motor Show

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet, I don't know whether that was an error by 55PackardGuy, the PAC webmaster who put the information online, or the person who originally compiled this list.</div></div>

Brian,

The list and dates come directly from the PAC website. I posted how to find it earlier, and referenced their source in the original post.

As for accuracy, there probably is no definitive, unchallengeable final word in a list like this. There are too many fine points of definition (is it a station sedan, is it a wagon, what constitutes a "true" torsion bar suspension, etc.), and also too many historical controversies (was it 1905, 1906, etc.). It is undoubtedly not a"complete" list either, as some of the discussion has pointed out.

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Guy, yes it was the last of the great side valve eights. I would love to have a 54 Pacific with that engine.

Jean Trevoux drove a 54 Packard with the 359 in the Mexican Carrera Pan Am and finished sixth. Nineteen hundred miles in 20 hrs/48 minutes (91.7 mph) wasn't bad for the old straight eight considering the OHV V8 Lincolns that beat him had some factory support vs none from Packard.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turns out you edited that list slightly (no doubt, because the PAC webmaster appears to have attempted to prohibit copying of info from that site).</div></div>

Brian,

Not to nit-pick, but no, they did not prohibit posting it, and I asked for permission before doing so.

The list was posted here with the caveat that it was not necessarily unchallengeable.

I did not "edit" the list in that I did not change the sense of any of the entries, but merely because I didn't really want to keep writing out "First" this and "First" that. I could not simply "copy and paste" the list, and had to re-type it. If you look at the two items you listed, I see no way that the meaning of what I posted and that of the site are any different. I think this is true for every item on the list.

No, I did not research these, as I posted originally that they are here for discussion and presented "as is" rather than interpreted or commented upon by me.

I cited my sources, which I might point out that Packard53 has not. Not that I have any arguments with what he says, since I can't prove anything either way, especially not knowing the sources.

I never contended that Packard53 was "dissing" the TL suspension. That assessment came from others. I do wish he'd post his sources for our information, and to make a better case for himself.

Perhaps the addition of the word "interconnected" would be an improvement on the reference to torsion bar suspensions, but this would re-interpret the statement. I wanted to give the people posting on the forum the opportunity to provide just this kind of information to improve the list, and also provide ADDITIONS to the list, as we have probably already done.

I know of no other Packard "firsts" list from PAC, but if you can find one, it would be an interesting addition to this thread.

Perhaps you would also be interested in tracking down the authors credited with the web site list, and find out if they have more information. The list on the web site may be an edited version of a more complete one, with more detailed information. If you have looked at the web site, you know that the list was only included as part of a larger historical perspective.

I really find it interesting how FEW of the items on the list have been challenged in any materially significant way. As I said originally, if even HALF are essentially correct, it is a very impressive list.

I don't think there is any comparison between this list and the "1965 Packard" fiasco. The first time I saw this list was about 5 years ago, long before any of that was published.

Maybe there is a way you can be 100% positive of the accuracy of every historical "fact" you find, but I won't pretend to be able to do that.

There may be some issues open to healthy debate here, but I'd prefer to keep it on the level of a positive discussion.

For instance, does anyone have information on the use of aluminum heads on a straight eight engine? I would think this was quite a technological feat, and maybe a "first," given the likely problems of mating aluminum and iron over that kind of expanse.

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