Packard "Firsts"

[Guest Albert]

Rolls used that clutch driven off the back of the transmission for many years after into the 50's, I seen one setup on a 50s or later and it was quit the setup, and worked good as long as the clutch was good.

[55PackardGuy]

Depends on your definition of "power brakes" I guess.

It appears that vacuum-assisted power brakes (<span style="font-style: italic">not</span> mechanically-assisted power brakes) were introduced by Packard on the Twin Six in 1932, so the "1936" designation is a bit conservative. But these were power-assisted <span style="font-style: italic">mechanical</span> brakes:

"...to bring the big beast [1932 Packard Twin Six] to an easy halt with a minimum of effort, engineers installed the Bragg-Kliesrath system of vacuum assist...the power system would, of course, be redesigned for the hydraulic brake system to be used on the Fifteenth and subsequent series." Kimes, Page 414.

This indicates that vacuum-assisted hydraulic braking systems ("modern" power brakes) <span style="font-style: italic">did</span> commence with Packard's Fifteenth series--the 1937 model year introduced in September <span style="font-style: italic">1936</span>. Looks pretty close to me.

Anybody have verifiable information on another manufacturer that had this type of power braking system in 1936, U.S. or otherwise? If "otherwise," this could be a Packard U.S. "first."

[SafeTFlex]

for 55Pack guy

The power assist for the big Packards (both clutch and brake on the 12's, brake on the big eights was, if I recall correctly, identical from 1932 to 1939 when the "Senior Division" factory was gutted so that Packard could concentrate on lighter cars. I am unclear where Kimes got the idea the power brake system was "re-designed" and became "modern" with the introduction of "juice" brakes on the "Senior Divison" cars for 1937. I dont have her book handy - is it possible that when she said "re-designed" she was referring not to the power assist system ( which was unchanged) , but to the introduction of hydraulics to operate the brake shoes, instead of levers (the brakes themselves, except for the changes to the backing plates to accomodate hydraulic operating cylinders, remained pretty much the same).

Nothing in the "power brake" or "power assist" was changed - the only parts that I am aware of, that were changed with the introduction of hydraulic brakes, were the operating rods that connect the vacuum assist cylinders to the brake mechanism. Obviously, the levers that connect the vacuum cylinder to the mechanical brakes are different than the ones that connect to the hydraulic brakes. But they are very definitely "power" brakes, and worked superbly.

Ms Kimes, as I have noted before, is a lovely individual, whose splendid talents as an Editor have given us some excellent publications. However, she does NOT represent herself as a "hands on" Packard mechanic, and thus, on occasion, comes up with some "whoppers" thru no fault of her own. One of my "favorites" in her Packard book is that nonsence that in 1938-39, the Packard Twelves had the same chassis as the "Super Eights"....! ( obviously, the much faster, heavier, and more powerful car would have to have MUCH more competent EVERYTHING in the way of running gear and chassis, including, but not limited to thicker frame, bigger brakes, heavier chassis components, etc.

When properly adjusted, there is no difference that I can feel in braking action between the pre-1937 "mechanical" brake and 1937-39 hydraulic brake Senior Packards. (this does NOT apply - remember, to the 1939 Super Eight - that was simply a "Standard Eight" motor mounted in a "120" chassis, so this MUCH lighter car didn't really need and thus did not have the power assist ).

Frankly, I wish my '38 Twelve had the earlier mechanical brakes - MUCH safer - there is only ONE hydraulic circuit on American cars up thru (someone help me out here..when did DUAL master cylinders come in ). In American cars with hydraulic brakes up thru (what - the 1960's)...you lose hydraulics, and you HAVE no brakes other than the hand brake ! I wish there was a way to adopt a "two cylinder" master cylinder to mine.

In any event, I do not think power brakes were something unique to or a "first" by Packard. I see similar systems on other cars and trucks of that era - my '36 American La France fire engine (weighs 16,000 lbs - 800 cu. in. overhead CAM motor - probably by far the fastest pre-war heavy truck in the world) stops with feather touch on the brakes, UNLESS the engine stalls AND you have pumped the brakes enough to run the emergency vacuum tank out of vacuum. Then, it takes BOTH feet AND yanking on the hand brake to stop the damn thing..!

[55PackardGuy]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Yes, hydraulic brakes had that single system for, apparently, about 30 years! It's puzzling that it took so long to change to a dual system, considering the obvious safety advantage and all the hair-raising and sometimes fatal failures of single systems. On American cars, I believe it was around 1967 when the dual braking system was introduced (don't quote me here, but I think that's pretty close) and I'm not sure if it was mandated after that or not, but it should have been much sooner!

Your comments on braking systems are the kind of info I have found helpful in attempting to verify or refute the Packard "firsts" claims as they exist on several lists. I'm relying on the collective knowledge, both from printed sources and experience, of the many readers of this forum. I have tried to glean some insights from the Kimes book along the way. I think that Kimes has some gaffs as you point out, but I don't have the firsthand knowledge to spot them. And sometimes even "hands-on" observations can be misleading too! The author comments at one point that it's hard to verify true automotive "firsts" and thus she purposely avoids most specific claims, but points out when Packard adopted a system early, carried an early patent, or made a unique automotive engineering contribution. Packard certainly was an "early adopter" of what became the dominant power braking system: vacuum-assisted hydraulic brakes. But the claim of a 1936 "first" is dubious.

I'd like to get rid of the improbable and downright wrong entries in the "Packard Firsts" lists out there that started this whole thread, and present a more accurate one. I think it will still have a very impressive number of entries, including some new ones that have been suggested on this thread, and some modified ones that more accurately present the engineering achievement with a narrower definition. Also, in many cases the addition of qualifiers such as "First U.S." would make sense, as we're talking about a U.S. manufacturer in what was at the time a much less global marketplace.

Looking back over the comments in the entirety of this thread recently, I thought it might be time to undertake the rather lengthy chore of re-presenting an updated list based on the commentary and open it up for further discussion and refinement. With the collective knowledge here, we should be able to "build a better list." Hope it stays friendly! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[55PackardGuy]

Well, the jury has been out for some time, but I don't know how much deliberation has been going on.

I went through this thread and made some notes on what readers have said about items that should be removed from the "Packard Firsts" list, what should be modified, and what should be added.

Please remember this is presented for discussion only, and I am NOT maintaining that I have any sort of final word. I am basing the changes on my best efforts at understanding what others have offered on the thread. If there was unresolved debate about items, I will note that. If I found NO debate, I will note that. As a GROUP, we may be able to construct a more satisfying list.

There were objections to the structure of the list, and the fact that some of the items have no dates. Dates have been supplied for some of these and if they are verifiable I think they should remain, otherwise I would eliminate them.

Originally, I said that if just half the items on the PAC list were true and verifiable, it would still be an impressive list. I think it may have met that test, especially if some of the additions are included.

Here is the list as originally posted (from the PAC website with no modifications except to eliminate redundancies such as starting each entry with "First...") suggested modifications and deletions from the discussion, if any, noted below each entry:

1. ?H? pattern selective gear shift (1899)

Modify to 1900 because of first appearance on model "B" per Packard53

2. Steering wheel (1901)

Out per Packard53. Winton was first in U.S. circa 1898. (Also see "Automotive Technical Firsts" www.autocluster.com/id40.htm)

3. Automatic spark advance (1899)

Not challenged.

4. Rumble seat (1908)

Out. Too difficult to define exactly.

5. Hand brake left of driver (1915)

Challenged by RVAnderson--Model T was first in 1909?

6. First twelve cylinder engine in U.S. (1915)

Out. Widely debated.

7. Aluminum piston automobile engine (1915)

Out. Widely debated.

8. Hypoid differential (1925)

Not challenged.

9. Hydraulic shock absorbers (1926)

Challenged by Silverghost (RR was first? 1925) Modify to first in U.S.?

10. Backup lights (1927)

Not challenged.

11. Pressurized cooling system (1933)

Modify to 1938 per Lake Powell. Not determined if that constitutes a "first."

12. Oil temperature regulator (1933)

Challenged by Guffin (AACA) Buick had oil heater/cooler 1931-35 (same kind of system?)

13. Full flow oil filter (1933)

Challenged by Guffin (AACA) "Hupmobile Century 8 1928 had full flow oil filter, see attatchment"

14. Central automatic chassis lubricator (1933)

Out per K8096 (Stutz was first? 1926)

15. Standard automatic radiator shutters (1933)

Out per Silverghost (RR first? 1926) Others indicated probably not first in U.S.

16. ?Ride control? for shock absorbers (1933)

Challenged by Guffin (AACA thread) Buick had in 1932?

17. Self cleaning full flow oil filter (1934)

Not challenged.

18. Power hydraulic brakes (1936)

Out per K8096 "Stutz had power vacuum assisted hydrraulic brakes in 1929, as did Duesenberg"

19. Aluminum crankcase

Not challenged.

20. Air conditioning (1939)

Corroborated by Jack Harlin (dealership experience), possibly modify to 1940 per Eric (http://inventors. about.com) and Craig, History Channel, citing 1940 Chicago Auto Show. Disputed by some other lists.

21. Sealed beam headlights (1939)

Out per Bill-W although he only cites they were "industry standard" by 1940, so Packard may have beaten the general intro by a year.

22. Padded dash (1939)

Not challenged.

23. Pleated upholstery (1939)

Questionable. May have been first on mass prouced car. Probably out.

24. Power windows (1940)

Not specifically challenged, but debated.

25. All steel station wagon (1948)

Out per bernardi and others (1949 Plymouth was first?)

26. Reverse rear window (1953)

Not challenged.

27. Torsion bar suspension (1955)

Modify to First fully interconnected 4-wheel torsion bar system.

28. Electric load leveler (1955)

May be modified to first in U.S.?

The following did not provide dates. Those supplied have been added.

29. Thermostatically controlled water circulation

30. Accelerator pedal joined with hand throttle

31. First patent on interchangeable wheels

32. Ribbed jacket water-cooled cylinders

33. First patent on radiator with top and bottom reservoirs with tubes

34. First U.S. application of ?trunnion block?

35. Glove compartment in instrument panel

36. Folding interior sun visors

37. Pump aided vacuum windshield wipers (1955)

38. Lateral stabilizer

39. Under fender cooling tunnels

40. Electric overdrive

41. Standard front and rear bumpers

42. Limited slip differential (1956)

43. Fiberglass body

44. Only automobile with complete torsion bar suspension (already listed)

45. First diesel aircraft (not automotive)

These additions have been suggested:

1. First electric power antenna, 1952(?)

from Kev,, 1954 Packard and Packard Clipper "Fact Book"

corroborated by Randy Berger, 1952 Mayfair personal experience

Changed to "electric" per K8099, '41 Cad had hydraulic.

2. First power steering linkage directly acting on steering geometry (frame mounted), 1953(?)

from Guy, Kimes, pg 567-568

3. First to offer standard tubeless tires, 1954

from Guy, Kimes pg 572

4. First to offer signal-seeking radio (Delco "Wonderbar"), 1953

from Brian

Challenged by Oldsfan (AACA)--Oldsmobile offered foot-operated sign-seeking radio as early as 1950.

5. First direct drive (locking) torque converter, 1949

from Brian

6. First use of pushbutton electric selector for automatic transmission, 1956

from Brian, also noted by mrpushbutton--distinguished from mechanical systems from Chrysler/DeSoto.

7. First reversible seat cushions, 1956

from Guy, Brian

Not sure on some of the dates for these, and of course there could be further discussion before "officially" including them, and they may be in need of modification like "first in U.S."

HAVE AT IT! KEEP IT CLEAN!!

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But we may end up with quite a "seriously" improved list of "Packard Firsts"

[Guest]

Guy: I would like to point out something to you.

You stated STEERING WHEEL 1901. Modify to first steering wheel offered on U.S. Vehicle. No other U.S. cars cited.

I refer you to post 310261 on page 4 of this thread which I sited other U.S. cars using a steering wheel before Packard or using it at the same time as Packard. All the cars I listed were produced in the U.S.A.

John F. Shireman

[55PackardGuy]

Brian,

That was the reason for the (?) after the year for the signal-seeking radio. I wasn't sure when it was introduced. I also meant to put a (?) after the date for the locking torque converter clutch, but forgot. I kind of thought it predated the "Twin Ultra" introduction. So 1949 is it. I'll revise the original post. Thanks!

Judging by previous responses, there will probably be some more additions, corrections and deletions.

Edit:

Just caught some of your edits to your previous post, Brian. Sorry I missed your original designation of 1949--it wasn't a typo. I took notes by hand as I read through the posts, and just missed that.

[55PackardGuy]

Brian,

Thanks for the "heads up" on AACA General, and also I will update the Pushbutton to "electric." I thought pushbutton "automatic transmission" would cover it, because the only challenge to it was the switch-operated manual on the Cord and Tucker, but adding electric makes it more specific. It's good to have people interested in other makes looking at this, as they will add expertise. "Packard people" have the most vested interest, so there may be some bias, but I've found them also to be among the most knowledgeable "car people" in general as well.

But the more the merrier. I don't plan on "publishing" anything outside a posting of an edited list at some point. There's no sense rushing it, and many from this forum who contributed to this thread earlier have not commented on the suggested changes yet. I listed the names or avatars of those who made contributions, so they can either confirm or revise them as you have.

[55PackardGuy]

Well, the list has gone through the rigors of the AACA General forum where it was posted by R W Burgess and has had 500 views and 32 responses in the past few weeks.

The following is a revision based on the suggestions and edits from ALL sources. The original, with notations on sources and comments is shown above on post #372459. That should give the rationale and what has stayed, what is gone, what is modified, and what has been added:

1. Automatic spark advance (1899)

2. ?H? pattern selective gear shift (1900)

3. Hypoid differential (1925)

4. Hydraulic shock absorbers on U.S. vehicle (1926)

5. Backup lights (1927)

6. Self cleaning full flow oil filter (1934)

7. Pressurized cooling system (1938)

8. Aluminum crankcase

9. Air conditioning (1939)

10. Padded dash (1939)

11. Power windows (1940)

12. Direct drive (locking) torque converter (1949)

13. Electric power antenna (1952)

14. Power steering linkage mounted to frame (1953)

15. Reverse rear window (1953)

16. Standard tubeless tires (1954)

17. Fully interconnected 4-wheel torsion bar suspension (1955)

18. Electric load leveler (1955)

19. Pump aided vacuum windshield wipers (1955)

20. Limited slip differential (1956)

21. Pushbutton electric selector for automatic transmission (1956)

22. Reversible seat cushions (1956)

Nothing sacred about this list, submitted for comments, suggestions, additions, deletions, clarifications, etc. etc.

[Guest]

1955PackardGuy: Winton was a production car that was built in Ohio, they also used a steering wheel in 1901. I will direct your attention to page four of this thread and my post 310261 and a list of autos that either used a steering wheel before or durning the same time Packard introduced the steering on their auto.

When someone like myself presents hard facts that can be prooven, that Packard wasn't the first to introduce a feature, you have to stop playing blind. Now would you care to give a direct answer, or just remain silent as you have in the past.

John F. Shireman

[Guest Albert]

If it was not for Winton, we may not have had our Packard's, as Packard kept complaning about the Winton he bought breaking down, so Winton told Packard if he though he could do better to "build his own motor car".

[55PackardGuy]

Back when this thread started, I said that if just HALF the original PAC list could be verified, it would still be a very impressive list. Well, it just about made it to half, even counting all the undated listings that were pretty much all thrown out, because no one came up with verification of intro dates.

Originally, 44 automotive "firsts" were listed (#45 was aircraft).

The list now contains 23, of which 6 are new additions.

16 of the original dated entries survived scrutiny, and two of the undated entries received dates, making 18 in all from the original 44. A little less than half.

The culling was pretty ruthless, and there are still a few that I'd like to see included, especially the V12 and a couple that were lost because of a one-year difference in intro dates. I also think a few cases could be made for more "first in U.S."

I also noticed that the "aluminum crankcase" never had an intro date. Missed that because it appeared within the first part of the list amongst all the dated entries.

A list like this is nothing more than an exercise in "living history," and as new information becomes available it can certainly change--increase or decrease.

I never presented it in any other way, and tried to make that clear from the beginning, although some rancor about it seemed to be inevitable.

Hope there was some enjoyment, and maybe will be some more.

And now, I can't help but re-commemorate my family's personal "Packard First"--the '55 Clipper Custom bought new. I know for sure that was a bonafide first, and remained a 30-year "achievment" in Packard motoring for us...

[joe kastellic]

What is a a reverse window?? thanks 1953

[Guest bkazmer]

The Balboa and Predictor had the rear light sloping backwards instead of leaning forward. However, I think Lincoln-Mercury actually has first production use (they called it the "breezeway")

[55PackardGuy]

Yeah, I believe all the L-M production versions opened, too. There was some debate over whether the Balboa one opened, but it's pretty clear in production photos that it could not have.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Many Packard people went to work at Ford which may explain some of it, BUT the Predictor had a T-top, later copied by Corvette and others. It had the back light sliding down behind the seat and 57 Mercury copied it. It had portholes in the rear roofline and 57 T-bird copied that. A lot of "innovations" were taken off the Predictor and the vertical grille may have been borrowed for the Edsel.

[mrpushbutton]

Randy, find a copy of the "Ford at fifty" book (1953) there is a picture on the front dust jacket of stylists at work in the studios. There is a 1/4 scale clay in the background that looks very much like the Edsel turned out. I think the horse collar-urinal front end was something they had been playing around with, and that would be more likely given industry lead times back then. Where I see the Predictor styling influence is in 60's Pontiacs. Besides the grille, look at the sculpting of the sides, the restraint with trim The roofline appeared in the '58-'60 Lincoln gawd-awful UG-lee aircraft carrier cars (the first MK III,IV and V models, many fans of the latter day 70's MK 2,3&4's don't know about those designations).

As for the T-top, Gordon Buhreig received a patent on the T-top in 1947-48 for the unsucessful Tasco car. He ended up in court with GM when the Corvette used his patent without compensation.

[55PackardGuy]

Rats, no "Packard First T-Top"

But, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if some clever Packard nuts here could come up with a few more "firsts." Why not look for new documentation on some of those that were eliminated, too? I don't have access to a lot of the info that others might have.

I'd like to get rid of the "Pump aided vacuum windshield wipers" anyway. That's kind of like giving the Vega kudos for "first aluminum block engine with cast iron head and aluminum cylinder bores."

[55PackardGuy]

Here's that list of steering wheel contenders from Packard53's earlier post:

1895 Spahr Runabout, Millerberg Ohio

1896 Bird Motor Trap Auto Buggy, Buffalo New York

1899 Columbia Mark VIII, Hartford Connecticut

1901 Gasmobile Phaeton, Marion New Jersey

1901 Frisbe Roadster, Middletown Connecticut

1901 Fey Touring, Northfield Minnesota

1901 Crestmobile Model C, Cambridge Massachusetts

1901 Automotor, Springfield Massachusetts

1901 Winton Runabout, Cleveland Ohio

Interesting stuff. I had no idea there was a Frisbe car--I wonder if Whammo had to pay them when they named their flying disk the Frisbee?<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I also did not know there was a car built in Northfield Minnesota, a short drive from my house! I did know of a car built for some years in St. Cloud, Minnesota, only 50 miles from here--the Pan circa 1919.

I wonder what the production number were of the pre-1901 cars listed? Did any of them exist post-1900?

There are six listed as 1901 models. Is Packard often credited with the first steering wheel because it was in this first group, and perhaps beat them to market? I don't know, but it's interesting that the Packard claim has been listed so often, and seems rarely to be challenged except by international vehicles. The Vacheron car is cited as introducting it in 1894. Here's a site with that info:

http://www.autocluster.com/id40.htm

Maybe we can get some more input on this before making final judgment, since it's such an essential contribution. It would be interesting to know where you've found this fascinating information. I also hope you can dig into your many archives and maybe find a new "first" to include.

[Guest]

Guy: I think it is time to cclear the air between us about the Packards First's

List.

The List of first from your post of April 7th, 2006

2. Steering wheel 1901 modified to First steering whell offered in U.S. You completely ignored my list of cars that had a steering wheel as the same time Packard or before Packard did. yet you stated no other vehicles sited.

4. Rumble seat 1908 OUT. I was about the only one to point out to you that Packard introduced that in 1907, and wasn't the first, and sited a few examples. Yet you mark it as to difficult to define. Yet I was was the first point this out.

6. First twelve cylinder engine in U.S. OUT Widely debated. The only person who to my knowlegde has ever questioned this in the forum was me. I have offered proof in the past that Packard wasn't the first. Yet uou just put widely debated

7. Aluminum pistons. OUT Widely Debated. Yet again I was the only one to offer proof that Packard wasn't the first.

15. Standard automatic radiator shutters. Out per Silverghost RRfirst 1926. Yet long before Silverghost pointed this fact out about Rolla Royce. I had made it clear along time before that that Lincoln was amoung the first having this feature in 1922. Later I pointed out to you that Columbia produced in the U.S.

was the first.

22. Padded Dash 1939 Not challenged: Yet in prior posts I made it clear the idea of the padded dash was Dutch Darrin's not Packards.

Yet when it comes to pointing out actually who might have been first in the introduction of things, that are claimed to have been a Packard first, but wasn't. You plain simply ignored me, and didn't give the proper credit were due. When asked by you in the past to give references to back up what I posted, and I did so, You dismissed them as being unreliable. Now all of a sudden you want to know were I got my information at about who might have introduced the use of the steeering wheel before Packard, that request is a real laugh. Concerning the want of additional imput, just go to the site that you posted about the steering wheel being introduced in 1894, go down the list to 1898 and there you will find that it states that Winton was the first. With what I have posted before about the steering wheel thing, and the other information provided, what other input do you need for gods sake to make a final judgement. In my library I have found that the first use of a steering wheel in a car, might have been in 1878. The car was a steam powered, built in France by Bolle'e a model named the La Mancelle. The car that you named wasn't produced in the U.S. from what I have been able to find out. However in the next week, I am sure that I can found out some information on the Vacheron.

I think that if you re-read the Packards first list, that you will find that I posted two things that could have possibly been Packard First's, but you just plain ignored them as you have with my other posts concerning this matter

John F. Shireman

PS: Some night when I have time I will give the history on the Pan and the Frisbe.

[55PackardGuy]

Thanks for pointing out the reference from the autocluster.com list to the 1898 Winton as the first vehicle in the U.S. to feature a steering wheel. I missed that when I read through the list before. One thing I dislike about their "Automotive Techincal Firsts" list is that it sometimes fails to list each manufacturer clearly under each date. But, I think it's generally a pretty good reference (although not exhaustive by any means), and I posted previously the Packard "firsts" that it specifically notes (there were only a few).

As far as who said what about what first on the list, I didn't set out to exclude or include anybody. I thank all who made contributions and corrections, but figuring out who was "first with a first" adds a whole 'nother layer of complexity. I always REALLY APPRECIATE references to where items are found because they lend a lot of credibility to the final result. I thought you would be able to make such references given your interest in automotive history and the many reference works you evidently have access to.

As for mentioning "widely debated" on some items, I think some, like the V12, had input from many, no matter who might have challenged them first. In the case of the V12, I think it was important to have some debate, since as you point out you made the only serious challenge to it, and the introduction dates are VERY close to a tie. I still think there is room to make a case for Packard having dibs on that one.

I don't recall any suggestions that you made for additions to the list which I did not include. PLEASE let us hear them again!

Meanwhile, I think we need to say goodbye to the steering wheel.

On other controversial items, I feel it makes sense to defend those that are controversial. The controversy indicates that there are some good reasons to consider keeping an item. For instance, although the Padded Dash is technically a Dutch Darrin design, it was pointed out that the design was used in a Packard. (#379917) Any company that introduces a new feature makes a decision to use it and put money behind it, even if they did not invent it, and I think we can agree that is the main criterion.

Looking forward to your upcoming findings.

[Guest]

Possible Packard First: In 1903 Packard set up the FIRST FACTORY SCHOOL IN AUTO ENGINEERING, with regular classes for employess, and soon expanded the school to give a one month course in car maintenance and repair courses to Packard owners and chauffeurs.

Source The World of Automobiles volume 14 published by Orbis Publishing Limited London 1974.

John F. Shireman

[55PackardGuy]

That's neat, and reminds me of a couple of others that aren't features of the cars themselves, but were mentioned as examples of Packard's pioneering spirit. Going by memory here:

First reinforced concrete factory.

First neon sign display.

So, we've got at least 3 of these types of items, and the beginning of a new list... Oh Lord no! I can hear it now... "well, Packard wasn't really the first with the (enter item of your choice here)." <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[55PackardGuy]

This may not be a "first" of anything but the first Packard Pan American--if it is even the first (it's a 1952). But, when I saw this pic, I thought to myself this might just be my favorite of any Packard postwar body, at least from the front. Isn't this gorgeous?

OK, don't know why that didn't show up in the post. Click on the attachment.

Edit: well, the pic showed up, but I'll leave the attachment on, too.

[Guest twinfour]

This car IS the very first Pan American. It was updated by Ed Macauley over the years, and now has a 1955 rear end and dashboard. It now belongs to the city of Detroit.

[55PackardGuy]

Thanks for the verification. The listing here is where I found it:

http://info.detnews.com/joyrides/story/index.cfm?id=604

They say Edward Macauley "drove it around Detroit" until 1954. Also, they list it as being located at the time of the photo in the "American Packards Museum" in Dayton Ohio. Apparently it has been moved to Detroit? Does that Dayton museum (founed in 1992) still exist? If the car is in Detroit, where do they display it?

I want a replica of that car! It sure looks like it has a lot of '55 styling cues on it, considering it's a 1952 model, but I suppose these pieces were added as it was modified. I reckon it still has conventional suspension, though, and not a T/L setup. Put this body style on a (probably shortened) '55 or '56 T/L chassis with V8 and voila! It would be a cool sister car to Craig's Panther. There's something kind of reminiscent of the '55 Chevy about the front end to me... and I mean that as a compliment! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest twinfour]

This car was modified from a 1951 250 convertible in early-1952, so it has the straight eight and conventional suspension. During 1954, the car featured a 1954 dashboard.

The Dayton museum is still there; this is where the photo was taken. While the City of Detroit does have a collection of Packards, most of the Packards, if not all of them, are now on display at the National Packard Museum in Warren, Ohio.

[Guest cnbed]

In the next issue of The Packard Cormorant (Summer 2006) there will be another photo of Ed Macualey's Pan American, next to another 1952 Pan Am. This issue will also have a biography of Ed Macauley and a six-page article on his 1941-50 Phantom.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Stu, thanks for the heads-up. I think I see that car influencing Chrysler grilles from a few years later.

[55PackardGuy]

Randy,

You mean kind of like the '55 Imperial shown on the right in the lineup photo linked below?

http://www.imperialclub.com/Articles/55Luxocar/page02big.jpg

The whole article is a fun read, with lots more pics (including color), and shows how Packard stood up in the "luxury market" vs Cadillac, Lincoln and Chrysler according to one press report about 30 years after their debut in '55.

This could be food for some "blasts" about where Packard stands in the minds of today's collectors in a toe-to-toe comparison of the FIRST V8 Packard, pitted against the Big Three's V8 "Luxocars" of 1955.

Don't want to start any wars. It could get a little heated even amongst some of the Packard faithful on this Forum. There are some pretty stout Caddylac fans posting here from time to time... although the Cad fairs very well. I think the author gives Packard some short shrift in a few areas, but generally the article is very complimentary of the 400. Packard was "out of the running" in the '55 luxury car market? I think not! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Full article:

http://www.imperialclub.com/Articles/55Luxocar/

[Guest Randy Berger]

Yep, just another example of Packard being first <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Stu: I know that you will not respond to my post, but I know you will read it.

If the Ed Macauley biography was written by a person other than yourself, I sure hope that they get the credit they deserve. Maybe by now you have learned your lesson and don't short change people like you did with my wife and me, in matters such as concerning the Berry story.

Back to the point a biography about Ed Macauley if the writter is being honest and cuts through a lot of BS shouldn't be more than a paragraph. It should be reading something like this. Born 1896 died 1973. The only reason that I got a job at Packard was because of my father. I was basicaaly given a position to keep watch over Packard styling for him. The real driving force behind the Packard styling department being WENER GUBITZ. The rest would be just wasted space, but I guess in my opinion that is what the TPC is mostly wasted space.

John F. Shireman

[Guest twinfour]

According to Michael Lamm and David Holls in their book "A Century of Automotive Style," Edward Macauley was born on August 29, 1902, and he died when he was 56 years old - which would have been around 1958. Where did you come up with 1896 to 1973? I would like to know your source. And Mr. Gubitz's first name was Werner - not Wener.

"The Packard Cormorant" and Stuart Blond were just awarded a Golden Quill Award from "Old Cars Weekly" for the best club publication in 2005.

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/Default.asp...49#1549Articles

How many writing / publishing awards have you ever won?

[Guest]

Twin Four: After doing some more research I think your reference material is in error. When it comes to Gubitz's first I simply missed typing the R in his first name. I will still stand behind my statment made about Ed Macauley. So as to not steer this thread in another direction, I will have some comments for you concerning the rag and its editor in another thread later in the week.

My reference materials state that Raymond Dietrich was born in 1894 and died March 19, 1980. What does Lamm and Holls have to say about the birth and death dates of Raymond.

John F. Shireman

[Guest]

55Packardguy: THE 1894 VACHERON that you noted was suppose to be the first to use a steering wheel, you have realy thrown me a curve ball on that one. I have tried every reference book that I know, including going to the local library, I have drawn a blank on that automobile, can't find any information on the history, country of production.

Now for some history on the Pan that was manufactured in St. Cloud. The Pan Motor Company wa founded by a fellow named Samual Conner Pandolfo. The Pan was introduced to the public in 1918. The car had wheel base of 108 inches with a four cylinder engine selling for about $1250.00. The car ended production in 1922 after 737 cars had been built, one source states that the company went out of business in 1921. One thing that helped put the Pan Motor Company out of business wa that Pandolfo was arrested in June 1919 a complaint was brought against him by a Federal grand jury for stock fraud. He was convicted of the charge and got 10 year in jail, but only served about three years, he got a pardon which in turn was highly protested by the National Advertising Convention. After getting out of jail he started a health food company.

Some night real soon I will post the history of the Fey that was built in Northfield.

John F. Shireman

[Guest twinfour]

According to Lamm and Holls, Ed Macauley was born August 29, 1902 in Dayton, Ohio. Where did you come up with the "Born 1896 died 1973" dates? Maybe you are thinking of Alvan Macauley, Jr.? He was born on September 6, 1896, and he was alive on December 12, 1973, as he attended the dedication of the "Macauley Memorial Gate" at the National Cathedral in Washington DC on that date. See the Summer 1974 issue of "The Cormorant" for the article. According to historian John A. Conde, Alvan Jr. died around 1985-86. Conde knew Alvan Jr. quite well, and was introduced to Alvan Sr. in 1946 by George Romney, when Macauley was honored with the other pioneers at the Automotive Golden Jubilee.

According to "This Date in Packard History" in PAC's "Cormorant News Bulletin," which can also been seen at www.packardclub.org Raymond Dietrich was born on February 15, 1894 and died on March 19, 1980. Lamm and Holls do not list the exact dates, only the years.

[Guest]

Twinfour: There sure seems to be some confusion about when Ed Macauley was born and died, but that is no big deal. As I have stated before the only reason that he got a job with Packard was because of his old man. I will also state again I hope that person that provided the information to the TPC editor gets the credit they deserve.

I realy don't care how many awards Stu has won, and you can keep on defending Stu all you want. People like you seem to over look some of the less than ethical things Stu has done concerning the Berry story.

John F. Shireman

[55PackardGuy]

Enough already. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Guest twinfour]

I agree! The matter of Ed Macauley's birth and death dates has been settled. If JS thinks that Michael Lamm and David Holls had gotten it wrong, then he should take it up with them. (Although I don't know how he's gonna contact David Holls...)

[55PackardGuy]

I meant that as a general "enough." Why not start a thread on "Great Packard People" and debate their greatness and longevity... or just celebrate their accomplishments! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />