GM DEATH WISH

[Guest greg72monte]

Bob Lutz said yesterday that Buick and/or Pontiac may be phased out in the future if they continue to underperform.

Mr. Lutz, that is an EXCELLENT way to drive customers away from Buick and Pontiac showrooms or maybe even other GM divisions. No one wants to buy from a lame duck and end up with an orphan brand. Does he think that consumers will take pity on GM and buy Buicks and Pontiacs just to save the brands??? I DON'T THINK SO!!! I think this was a BIG public relations BOO BOO. Maybe he said it to keep the investors happy in the short term, but may have done irreparable damage to the Buick and Pontiac brands.

I will now get off my soap box and go to work as I see the GM plant across the street from my office in Linden, NJ prepare to close next month........

[Steve Moskowitz]

Greg, do you really think it was a "boo-boo"? Do you think it was an accident that he made those comments? Look at past history. That's all I had better say. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Guest greg72monte]

Steve,

Do you mean that he meant to prepare the public for the future demise of Buick and/or Pontiac with possibly nothing in between Chevrolet and Cadillac?

[Steve Moskowitz]

What is between Toyota and Lexus? Think about it. That being said, having gone thru the Oldsmobile situation I really hope that there is not another axe to fall. I could write paragraph after paragraph on all this but best that I don't!

[R W Burgess]

Maybe you should Steve. Someone has to tell the story from the dealers standpoint, especially since dealers are the only ones that seem to understand the mindset of the American Car buyer. I'm noticing a lot of this poor decision making the last 10 years or so. The young people coming into the Executive Departments of America seem to think they know best about everything, when in fact they has lost touch with America. Makes me wonder if these poor judgement calls didn't begin in college. I'm very critical about the professors that are teaching our young people today. I could talk at length about our own family experiences with the education system of today, but then I'd probably be teaching to the choir. Where are the Fran Shores of yesterday? Oh, yes, the good ones got a good paying job to support their family. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[1937hd45]

Does anyone have any numbers on the percentage of Americans that can afford to buy ANY new car or truck? There may be too many used cars out there that are causing this problem.

[Guest BillP]

It was my understanding at the time that due to Detroit's Big 3 slipping market share, congress restrained Japanese auto sales in this country by brand name. The clever but obvious work-around for them was to invent a new brand, go up market and add a near-luxury nameplate to their stable. Thus were born Lexus, Infiniti and Acura. Sales of the new brands did not violate the law and resulted in high-margin, plus business for these carmakers. Detroit did not receive the benefit it sought, in fact, it suffered doubly.

I have another "unintended consequences" theory about the rise of light trucks and sport utility vehicles. Congress, responding to the press and a poorly informed public, required automakers to install emission controls and to maintain CAFE standards on their offerings in the late sixties and seventies. The automakers responded hurriedly and the product suffered. The regulation did not cover light trucks (I recall 6000#GVW cutoff) and those drivers who could or would, switched en masse to 1/2 or 3/4 ton pickups for driveability. Finding utility in what was formerly a lowly work vehicle, the average driver looked closer at the category and began to move out of sedans and station wagons.

Just a theory.

If there's any sense in this, it is that it is sometimes best to let the market sort itself out.

[Lake Powell]

I think BURGESS has "hit the nail on the head" on his comment about what these young auto executives learn in college, and how they use it to screw up businesses that USED to be famous for good products. I call it "The Harvard Business School Mentality". It is destroying the American auto industry.

Isn't it interesting that more and more over-seas manufacturers are finding that they can build a better project - higher quality, even with the high cost of American labor..here in the United States..my new Honda TV..my Toyota Camry...Kawasaki...so many products that do well in the marketplace with reputations for high quality and reliability...are built right here in America!

It seems that all organisims...whether they be human individuals, nations, or corporate entities...have a time when they are young, vigorous, and adaptable, and then grow old and incompetent. When GMC was run by people who actually liked making machinery, it was world famous for products that gave reliable service. As the "doers" retired and left, and the "business school" mentality took over, quality went down, as they focused on the wrong issues.

We seem to be bent on national suicide - our current "business school" industrialts, with power to control govt. decisions, seem determined to close down everything, ship our technology overseas so they can just collect royalties on famous American names, while foreigners, recognizing the superiority of American middle class workers, are coming in here and "stealing the farm".

How about this...BUICKS are not American cars any more...but my Toyota Camry IS!

( they only let me out in the middle of the night when the kids are asleep )

[Lake Powell]

typo error...I was referring to my Honda ATV....not "TV"....!

(I am so ugly THAT is the reason why GOD gave us the power

to invent paper bags...!)

[Guest BillP]

Petey Alert!!!

[Twitch]

Hmm? Oldsmobile, Buick and Pontiac are pretty much the same cars in the buying public's mind whether they truly are or not. Olds is already gone and ditching Pontiac and Buick would pretty much eliminate the entire niche. Huh?

[Steve Moskowitz]

Mark LaNeve at GM issued a strongly worded statement today saying that Lutz's comments were taken out of context and denying any change in GM's Divisions was eminent. I seem to recall those words before..... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

At last someone who shares my belief that we were a great nation when we made PRODUCT. Now that our major corporations make reports and count beans we are doomed to decline as a nation. Do you want fries with that, sir.?

How many of you have seen the FedEx commercial where the African American woman leads a young guy to the shipping department to help out. His comment when shown the equipment for making shipments, "But you don't understand. I have an MBA." Her response, "Oh, then it will take a little longer for you to learn."

That one commercial speaks volumes about the people, both men and women, who are leading American industry. Some people are just educated beyond their intelligence.

hvs

[Uncle Remus!]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Some people are just educated beyond their intelligence.

hvs </div></div>

Howard, the above is so valid and so succinct, it is just plain brilliant!

{No - I'm not being facetious}

Unk

[gtogoodman]

im a gm dealer, you are missing the point. Lutz was asked if killing a brand was a possibility, the answer was , yes if we fail, but we will not fail because we have invested 3 billion in new product for these brands, if after 3 billion we cant get it right maybe we should, the press heard death to buick and pontiac, mercedes annouced it is considering killing the smart car, no headlines saying "death of a brand"if gm built the scion, the world would call it the ugliest car ever, toyota builds it and they call it ground breaking

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if gm built the scion, the world would call it the ugliest car ever, toyota builds it and they call it ground breaking </div></div>

Now there's a true statement for ya! In America's eyes, they can do no wrong.

[Guest imported_Joe Kieliszek]

Ford wants to make one of those Scion boxes, but would like to

call it a "Sinus"..

Thanks,

Joe Kieliszek

[R W Burgess]

Mr. Goodman, Welcome to the forum. I didn't read the press release you speak of, but on another site of this forum, it was stated that the rear drive platform for all GM cars that was scheduled for the future has been taken out of consideration.

Personally, I have bought GM all my life, but I haven't bought a new GM car since the front wheel drive platform became the name of the game. Sorry, but I like the rear wheels of my vehicles pushing me along. The front wheels already have enough trouble keeping the rest of the equipment headed in the right direction with the way I drive. Now, if GM can't figure out they need to go back to rear wheel drive like the rest of the industry is already doing, they're in big trouble regardless of how many "Billions" they spend. I'll never buy a front wheel drive car. Wayne Burgess

[poci1957]

It seems to me that the problem is not that the Sloan "price ladder" does not work anymore, as many are saying. Remember, a key to the price ladder was that people would pay extra for a nicer Buick or Olds and the profit margin went up. And I think people would still pay extra to "trade up", especially seeing that they do it with lots of other purchases. The problem is that the customer must see the benefit to the trade up--there has to be sufficient prestige to make them feel that it is worth it to spend the extra money. Has anyone looked at a Century Custom lately? They don't make Buicks like they used to, and unless GM designs some hot product the retail public has little reason to get excited. The GTO is another example, I drove one and it drives fantastic, but even in bright red it does not have any style. It is not ugly (like a Scion--or Aztek) but it does not make me say "wow, what a great looking car, let me give you $30,000." Just ask Chrysler if style can put a halo on a division. Of all people, Lutz knows it can, and he has certainly not lived up to my expecations. Good luck to GM--they need it, but killing another division is not the answer, hot product is. Todd C

[1937hd45]

Maybe service is killing GM, based on the runaround a local guy is getting with a $50,000 dump truck they have killed any hope of a repete buyer.

[Richard F]

I think we need to remember that the corporate world no longer has much to do with national boundaries. Ford owns Volvo, Jaguar, Mazda. Is a Ford Ranger any more of an American product than a Mazda B2000? Volvo trucks are made in the US by Ford while what used to be Ford trucks are now called Sterling. Paccar, the parent company of that very American producer of Kenworth and Peterbilt trucks now make thousands of units in India and China for those markets. Are they still American? And what about Chrysler? Aren't they a German company? How much GM stock is currently owned by overseas investors? How much of Mitsubishi is owned by Americans? Does it really matter?

I was sitting in the Marriott hotel in Chongqing, Peoples Republic of China, not long ago having a drink with the CFO of the Cummins Diesel plant there. He told me that over half of the diesel engines currently made in China are Cummins. The Chinese lady that was with me was surprised at that but she couldn't quite believe that the Marriott we were sitting in was an American hotel--she thought it was Chinese.

And when you come right down to it, how much different is that 2005 Pontiac or Buick from a Toyota Camry or a Hyundai anyway? If you want a real Buick, buy a '55 Roadmaster or a Series 90 from the '30's. They're more fun to drive anyway.

[Twitch]

I consider the country of origin to be the "home" of the vehicle. I don't care how cozy Chrysler and Mercedes are in bed. A Mercedes is German and a Dodge is American regardles of what is manufactured where. If the Whizzo Car Company is 60% owned by Ford I still consider the 2005 Whizzo to be a Whizzo and not a Ford even if some sub-assemblies are Ford-made. The Whizzo is designed in Slobovia therefore it is Slobovian. It isn't a bad thing that there is a cross over of part and sub-assemblies from one company to the next. We probably end up with better all around cars. I would consider Cummins, for example, an American company even if over 50% of their company was Chinese owned.

Product identity in autos is going the way of product identity in other items. It's being blurred and re-badged. There has always been English Ford, German Ford and and GM-made cars overseas etc. Everyone knew what they were. Why the need now for companies to call them anything else?

If Coca Cola built a plant in Mexico and produced 100% of the soda consumed in the US there it would still be an American product. They already have bottling facilities everywhere in the world and people still consider Coke to be American even though it is made and facilities sometimes owned by people indiginous to those countries.

[Guest]

Wayne, if you lived out here you might just like a front wheel drive car. Cars go through the snow much better and under better control when they are pulled through snow than when they are pushed through it.

HV

[R W Burgess]

Howard, That's what old truck tires are for! I know everyone thinks us easterners still have "corn liquor tanks" in the trunks of our old Chevys, but actually it's the old wheels and stove wood to weight the vehicles down. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Actually, when it's heavy snowfall I drive my pickup when I need to get anywhere important. The rest of the time I stay home like all old people in Virginia do. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[Guest]

Wayne,

All of our modern vehicles are 4 wheel drive except Judy's '97 Seville STS. She plans to keep it forever because it is pretty and different from all of the look alike cars on the road. Maybe that is why poeple buy the Aztec, it's different even if it is fugly.

HV

[1937hd45]

Howard,that piece of crap is an insult to a fine race of people, they knew damn well they were extinct when they picked that name.

[Guest]

Yeah, that way they knew nobody could sue.

HV

[bill pritchett]

I guess you can look on the "bright" side of this. My 61 Olds should have gone up in value quite a bit if an old 53 Olds can get $3M at an auction. Of course, based upon that analogy a new car should now cost ~$200,000, oh wait some of them do now.

[ex98thdrill]

Aztek?? heck at this time, even the Pacers and Edsels are looking good after seeing that piece of crap going down the road.

[Guest Skyking]

Speaking of Pacers, I want to know the difference between the looks of one of them verse's an Infinity FX. The only difference I can see is a little more glass on the Pacer. Too bad it didn't come from a Japanese drawing board.

[HarryJ]

Didn't Pontiac replace the staid old Oakland in the line up? GM has faced many challanges in it's history; including, having to rid itself of Billy Durant twice and Senate hearings in 1956 as to whether it was operating in a monopolistic fashion. American industry faces a global market today with strong highly skilled competitors. Whether GM's business school educated management can handle the stiuation only time will reveal. This goes for Ford and Chrysler also.

[Guest tomf]

Does any one recall the success story of "Mr. Gasket" The back alley garage guy who thought it would be a good idea to market "bundled gaskets" instead of having to buy each one individually? He started the Mr. Gasket company, made it a large success, sold it to some corporation who ran it to the ground, whereas he bought back and made it solvent again using his common sense and knowing what people wanted.

[DizzyDale]

Dear TomF,I saw this story on 60 Minutes a number of years ago.The Gasket King of Cleveland"Joe Hrudka".Do not remember any details of the story,the Hrudka Brothers drag raced in the mid-west in the 60s-70s.diz