single marque clubs-published judging standards

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Does any single marque (or model-related club i.e. chevy corvette) publish a list of what they know/consider to be "correct" for a particular year/model vehicle? I know of a couple of (single marque)clubs where it's a game of sorts.

It's goes something like "We 12(or so) old-timers who have known each other since 195X KNOW how these cars were built. We did our research, and we stand in judgement of your car". Well, we are all going the way of all flesh, and for the sake of recorded history, are you taking that (presumed accurate) information to your grave? Would it not serve the cause of a particular make/model/year for the experts to publish (or make available on the web) a list saying "for 1929 model A Ford (just an example) we consider that the engine should be this color, X should be nickel plated, Y should be painted gloss black and Z should be painted body color"

Does any club do this already?

[Guest BruceW]

The Model A Ford Club of America (MAFCA) and Modle A Restorers Club (MARC) has thier set of published Judgung Standards of which a lot of research went into and continues to to update as new information is found.

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Little bit of irony there, I just used "model A Ford" because it was the first thing that came to mind. Turns out both clubs publish a list of "correct" judging criteria. J

[1937hd45]

The last thing on earth that you want to get into is a "is this correct?" discussion with a rabid MARC Model A Ford guy. They know down to the minute what is RIGHT on your Model A, it takes a team of six guys just to judge horns at their meets. AACA is a cakewalk in comparison with 80% reproduction parts accepted for a First Junior. Don't even think about the Bloomington Gold Corvette people!

[Jim Bollman]

The Crosley Automobile Club has a "Restoration Tips" booklet that gives some guidelines but does not try to be an all encompassing guide.

We also have a series of 8-12 page booklets that cover most models and years, that give historic information and some restoration info as well as factory and period photos to help in identifying and restoring Crosleys.

I have started adding pages to our club website giving detail pictures of the different models from good original or restored cars as well as giving some restoration info on the particular models.

More needs to be done but it is a start. As is the case with many car companies, Crosley made many running changes, switching as parts ran out and improvements were made, with little or no documentation, so it is impossible to cover it all.

[Guest bkazmer]

I find that "free" PAC directory to be very helpful when looking for some advice. I agree that the PAC guidelines are a little loose, but remember that Packard is well known for having running changes and multiple "correct" versions. I can do without the "how many tailfeathers should your thermo-quail have" approach to judging - JCNA (Jaguar) is of that ilk too.

[DizzyDale]

1937hd45 is right on,AACA is a breeze in comparison to any individual marque club.The Early Ford V-8 Club of America wants it as Mr. Ford built it or you are goin home without the hardware.I am talkin about down to the correct heads and finishs on the bolts.EVERY part of the car,THATS why a Dearborn Award is so coveted,as ANY good restoration,you have to do your homework and put the time in.The V-8 club publishes resto books for almost every year car from 1932-40.diz

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Yes, the AACA is in general easier than a single marque club. But that sword cuts both ways. I represented a car I was involved with (our shop frame-up, nut and bolt restored it) We did well with the CCCA with this car, so we looked forward to showing the car @ Hershey. A judge there insisted that we should have a point deduction for moving the battery from under the seat to the outer frame rail, under the fender. We very politely pointed out that this particular make located all of their batteries there (in that model/year), that's the way it was built.

"No, all these big cars had the battery under the seat" was the reply. It was an exercise in diplomacy, but we were able to convince the judge (with the help of a well known collector) that the battery was where it belonged. We always had the toughest time at the single marque national meets. One club in particular was a little funny in that the head judge for the annual meet was also the main supplier of replica parts. He had a competitor who made other parts for the same make, but different parts, the second fellow didn't want to duplicate anything "supplier A" was offering. The second vendor was really upset at the fact that anyone attempting to duplicate/replicate a given part for a vintage car has a budget, or point of no return investment, and very few replica parts can be made <span style="font-style: italic">EXACTLY</span> as original. Sometimes there is a detail in a stamped part that affects appearance, but not function, and the cost of the additional die, or die operations would be absolutely prohibitive. He (supplier "B") was upset that any car having parts that he produced would get slapped for points ("that's not how the original was"), while supplier "A"'s parts (which fell under the same financial constraints of reality and would occasionally omit certain details) were A-OK!. An automobile company puts more money into a single part than any one person can afford. Of course "vendor A" ruled the judging, and they were none too helpful during the process. I do not have issue with the clubs judging on authenticity, I think that is only right. I helps when you are splitting hairs between two 1st place candidates. You are either going to judge on authenticity, or on workmanship--like the streetrod boys. Very few "antique cars" receive that quality of body and paint work. Some big dollar 30's classic lumber wagons do,and a few 50's convertibles are getting that treatment now, but that's another subject. I just don't see what the harm would be to make this data available. Commercial shops would be happy to pay for this information, it would save the customer money needed for research. If it's going to remain a game, how about giving a list of your (the experts) resources? John

[1937hd45]

If someone had the checkbook to do it he could build an AACA First prize winner using 60-80% reproduction parts. A running original 1931 Ford chassis could become a Deluxe Roadster as fast as you could throw money at it. The point is if it looks as good as original in AACA it is as good as the real deal. MARC judging is another story, NOS or individually restored components are what are prized.

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Hey, look at the bright side--A model A Ford has 80% of the (replica) parts available! I've seen those catalogues, you look up your part#, call a toll free 1-800 phone#, give them your Vias/MC #, and the big brown truck truck delivers them that week (or month). We Packard guys can only dream! It's either NOS or inaccurate.

[Guest bkazmer]

Club directories are an aid to help club members talk about their cars, and that seems a good thing. I find it helpful to contact owners of a model I am looking at or have bought - I value their advice. Some of the people expert in a Torsion-Level and V8 oiling might not be the best references for Bijur systems or sidemount hardware. Now can it be done more cheaply/efficiently? - I'm sure it can.

An interesting idea might be a judging standard with areas with known multiple "correct" versions noted. What color should the engine on a bathtub Packard be? Green or gray, but red is not OK.

The authenticity vs. craftsmanship discussion is a good one, and should be extended to "normal" evidence of use. I was once instructed at a Marque National meet not to deduct for dirt under the car and hood resulting from cars being driven there. That seems sensible to me - the E-Jag owners who don't want their engine to warm up because it will discolor the porcelain on the manifold are a bit over the edge to me, but to each his own.

[1937hd45]

This is turning into a great thread. Are there any single marque club judges reading this? Do you have to backoff on your marque standards when judging an AACA event?

[Ron Green]

The Pontiac Oakland Club International (POCI) utilizes the AACA 400 point system for the most part however they do have some specific items per year & model they look for when judging. They do publish their own judging manual. POCI only has one national judged event per year of which can limit the quality of judging and provide fluctuating overall scores due to the many inexperienced judges, in my opinion.

The try to also judge correct factory paint, interior and engine codes via the vehicle data plate, something that is very difficult to do with a show held once a year. The AACA allows a vehicle to be painted a different color including an interior color with no point deductions, if color / material are correct for the model and year. In the POCI they did encourage you to have a reproduction data plate produced when changing colors, including to a non year/ custom color to avoid deductions. Hopefully some of these rules have been changed?

[Mr.Pushbutton]

1937hd45 asks "Are there any single marque club judges reading this? Do you have to backoff on your marque standards when judging an AACA event?" I would say (IMHO) NO!, you should call it the way you would at the marque event and educate the judges in your class with your knowledge of a particular make/model, or the whole thing is for naught. There can be judging wrinkles in a multi make club like the AACA or CCCA. No one judge can truly know how every car in that class "was built". The team approach is best here--a deeper pool of knowledge. If a person is trying to skate with a national first for a restoration not thoroughly researched, their worst nightmare is a judge who has the same car!

[Guest bkazmer]

Unless you have an exceptional judging team, I think it perhaps should happen. If you are a marque expert for say, Pierce-Arrow, and you are now judging a class with Pierce, Packard, Lincoln, and Cadillac, is it fair to hold the Pierce to a higher standard than the other cars? Now if you have a judging team that includes experts in all of them, the overall judging standard will be harder. Regardless, it should be even across the class.

And remember, judges are imperfect human volunteers (as they need to remember too).

[DizzyDale]

Being a Ford,Zephyr and recently a Corvette guy i assumed all marques had their own restoration guide.When doing our 37 Ford and now the 39 Zephyr i find these restoration guides published by the clubs INVALUABLE.I have 2 copies of each,one at the garage,one at home and i read them ALL the time.Cannot imagine doing a restoration on an ORPHAN....Dear Nelson and Pat Thorpe you have all my respect takin on ORPHAN after ORPHAN and giving them ALL a GREAT home.diz

[ex98thdrill]

Thank you Dale. We have the means to have our cars nice, but if we had that type of reference material like the marque clubs, our cars could be a lot nicer.

Dale can you hook me up with any experts on a '42 Ford 1-1/2 ton chassis?

[carbking]

While we are a company specializing in antique parts rather than a club, we have attempted to help the clubs in this respect on carburetors. I have personally been building a database concerning carburetors since 1967; the passenger component being published on the web.

As one individual posted above, a complete, perfect standand will not be done at one time, and if a standard is to be done, it needs to be changable, as fresh data surfaces.

The individuals posting about Packard making running changes is no joke! Check the number of different carburetors used by Packard in the years from 1929-1932:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Kpackard.htm

We would offer our website as a BEGINNING attempt at what carburetor goes on what vehicle: http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Passengerkits.htm and would delight to be sent positive proof (copies of factory parts books, bulletins, etc.) offering either corrections, or filling in blanks. We have been through the research material (mostly carburetor company literature) in our library.

One of the biggest problems are exceptions. Two outstanding examples come to mind. The first would be Pontiacs (my marque of choice) where the factory parts books specified certain carburetors for the 1970 RA 455 GTO's. However, these carburetors were NEVER produced, a fact that has been proved by the study of the actual car build sheets. This option was on hold for most of the year, and only released for a couple of months; hence the production was too low to justify a special run of carburetors, and the RA IV carbs were used. The second concerns Plymouth. In 1947, a strike occured at the Carter plant producing Ball & Ball carburetors for Plymouth, forcing Carter to ship the better (and much more expensive) W-1 carburetors used on Chevrolet for a couple of months. I am not sure that Plymouth mentions these units in their parts books (they had several unhappy owners that got the regular carbs, and compared performance to their friend's cars with the Chevrolet carb). Yet for a couple of months, the Chevrolet carb was the factory original carb on the P-15.

There are literally hundreds of exceptions such as this in the use of carburetors alone. I shutter to think of the exceptions for a complete vehicle.

Jon.

[ronbarn]

As an enthusiast of one of the more obscure orphans, i.e. Marmon, I would like to mention at this time that the CarbKing has been very helpful with carbs for our cars. I am working on a special edition of our newsletter focusing on carbs with a challenge to our members to provide "corrections" and or additional information that can be used to update the CarbKing database.

[Guest Art Griffin]

Hey, the Mustang Club of America publishes judging standards for the various years of Mustangs. It is available online, but you have to go to the "Members Only" part of their website and sign in with your membership number, etc.

Art Griffin

[mrpushbutton]

Big update--I have just discovered (actually I was shown) a manual put out by the Lincoln club (whichever club covers the 40-48 Continentals) which shows exploded diagrams of just about every engine, chassis, body, interior etc. part, and what finish they are supposed to be in order to judged "correct" at that club's meet. How wonderful. After posing this question last spring, I have since had a discussion with the head of judging for the club that covers my car and I basically asked him what I asked in my original post. His answer was "the easiest thing to do is to get your car judged, and then you will know". This blew me away. I don't wan't to do everything three times (I'll probably have to do it all twice!) I just wanted a common resource where the folks who will stand in judgement of my car will be able to give me the "correct way" answers while I have everything apart, the first time. The Lincoln book is an excellent guide!

[6219_Rules]

Yes, the Cadillac LeSalle Club does produce manuals of authentication. These manuals are available in the various classes for all Cadillacs. I have the Class 15 1954-56 third edition. To quote the CLC website :

"The purpose of the Cadillac-LaSalle Club's Authenticty Manual Project is to document, as much as possible, the details of how Cadillacs and LaSalles actually looked when they left the factory and were delivered by the dealer. Under the direction of Fredus "Pete" Peters, the Club's Director of Technical Services, teams of Club members are preparing twenty-nine (29) such booklets, one for each class into which Cadillacs and LaSalles are grouped for national judging."

Please feel free to check them out at :

CLC Authenticity Manuals

[Guest JT]

Packards International publishes a detail and judging guide, the bulk of which covers the "engine room".