Judging School

[57Chevy]

In response to inquiries regarding judging eligibility, there has been a long-standing requirement - loosely enforced before 2004 - that a judge must attend a judging school during the calendar year of judging. The judging committee felt that that requirement was too difficult for most judges and therefore, for the 2004 calendar year, the requirement became - a judge must attend a judging school in the previous year or in the current year prior to the meet at which she/he planned to judge. During 2004, there were still enough judges who had not maintained their eligibility by attending a judging school within the time frame.

For 2005, the eligibility requirement is that a judge must have attended a judging school during the previous year. As explained in The Judge newsletter, this would mean that if a judge was going to judge at the Gainesville, Florida meet in March 2005, she/he would have had to attend a judging school sometime between March 1, 2004 and March 5, 2005(the actual day of judging at the Gainesville meet). If a judge attended a judging school at the 2004 annual meeting in Philadelphia, would she/he not be eligible to judge at Gainesville ?

Of course, she/he would be eligible to judge. THIS IS A HOBBY and a few weeks would not be grounds for disqualification ( the time between the judging school at the 2004 Annual Meeting and March 1, 2004).

The example used in The Judge for the Roanoke meet in May would mean that a judge could have attended a judging school at Hershey in 2004, at the annual meeting in 2005, at the Gainesville meet in 2005, or at the Roanoke meet in 2005. Hopefully, a judge could attend at least one of those four events prior to appearing at the judges breakfast/show field on Saturday at Roanoke !

The most serious issue in judge eligibility is the ongoing letters of challenge and complaint voiced by vehicle owners attending national meets. These complaints focus on the caliber of judging and the proper use of documentation in the judging process. (Both of these topics are explained and discussed at each judging school / apprentice school.) It is not fair to the hobby, qualified judges, or the vehicle owner to have a judge on the show field who is not current in the ongoing, changing AACA judging system. Just as an example, if a judge missed a judging school in 2004 and a judging school in 2005 and judged at a 2005 meet, this judge would not be up-to-date with the vehicle classification changes and other judging guidelines as outlined in the 2004 and 2005 judging manuals. There are judges on national meet show fields who may not have attended a judging school in 3-4 years. That should NOT be acceptable to anyone in AACA !

The proposal to put the judging school on line and have a scoring system for a judge to take a test after the on-line judging school is an EXCELLENT IDEA. However, the budget for judges training does not even approach the hundreds of thousands or millions that corporations - such as Verizon - have invested to keep their staff up to date. I have not asked for one cent for all of the out-of-pocket expenses - for mailing, developing the judging school program, and audiovisual materials - during 2004.

The two assistant chairs for judges training and myself - as chair of judges training - paid for all travel and other expenses so that the three of us could cover every major AACA event in 2004 - the annual meeting plus every national meet. There was NO request for compensation - we did it because WE ENJOY AND WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE HOBBY.

If we can get to the point where car owners and judges are in concert with each other - that is, they both enjoy the judging experience for what it is, then AACA will be even better than it is now.

It takes many hours to develop the judging school and apprentice school materials - both at home and at each of the national meets. The newly-revised 2005 judging school program - which will be the second program that will be on power point rather than photographic slides - should be experienced in person, not over the screen of a computer. Judging is interactive - there is a team of judges not one person doing remote control judging. The judging school and apprentice school during 2004 attempted to make the judging school more meaningful and more interactive. Will the 2005 judging school be even better ? You bet. But if you are going to get involved in judging, you have to make a commitment - to attend at least one 2 hour judging school during each calendar year. AACA is not asking you to make a long term commitment - just two hours !

Hopefully, those people who raised general questions about judging eligibility will have had their questions anwered or their comments addressed. If not,I'll attempt to follow up with further clarification.

Fred Young - Chair - Judges Training

[1937hd45]

One would assume that no AACA judge would ask to judge a class he/she had no knowledge or interest in. That being said I'd bet most Judging complaints come from owners of post 1965 vehicles. Judging schools should be broken down to eras of interest. Matching numbers of '60's GM products is of no interest to a Brass car judge, and vice versa. This rule looks like it may alienate more that encourage judges.

[57Chevy]

Two responses - first, AACA judges must be prepared to judge any vehicle and in any class at a specific meet. Even though judges indicate their preferences, it is not always possible to judge the classes you are interested in, either because many people want to judge in those classes or there are no vehicles in those classes. I have judged motor scooters, trucks, 1930s cars, 1960s cars even though none of those classes were my choices.

Second, AACA judging has a goal of being inclusive rather than exclusive - we want as many AACA members to serve as judges as they wish to serve. However, it is only fair to the judging team, the vehicles being judged, and the vehicle owners to have the best qualified and prepared judges on the show field.

Finally, complaints come from every conceivable class and decade. The complaints are not primarily from post 1960s cars. The complaints are based on the level of vehicle restoration by the owner and the documentation which the owner has and the owner's perceived quality of judging of her/his vehicle.

For 99% of the vehicles and judges, AACA's judging system works and it works because judges and owners buy into the system.

[novaman]

Fred, thank you for replying. I understand what the intentions are behind the rule and I agree that you need the school at more than then a 3 or 4 year interval. That isn?t fair to the other judges who need to update that person on general changes. And not fair to the car owner, to be uninformed about judging changes that might the way the car is judged.

I didn?t mean to sound like I was challenging the rule. I just wanted some clarification about ?the year.? Which is still foggy, at least for me.

With your post you stated the following:

?The judging committee felt that that requirement was too difficult for most judges and therefore, for the 2004 calendar year, the requirement became - a judge must attend a judging school in the previous year or in the current year prior to the meet at which she/he planned to judge.?

?The example used in The Judge for the Roanoke meet in May would mean that a judge could have attended a judging school at Hershey in 2004, at the annual meeting in 2005, at the Gainesville meet in 2005, or at the Roanoke meet in 2005. Hopefully, a judge could attend at least one of those four events prior to appearing at the judges breakfast/show field on Saturday at Roanoke !?

I understand the first quote to say in order to judge in 2005, I must have attended a judging school between Jan 1, 2004 and previous to the day of show in 2005. So, if I were to judge at Hershey this year as long as I was to school between Jan 1,2004 and Oct 8, 2005, I?d be eligible.

The second quote I understand as if I was to judge at Hershey this year as long as I was to school between Oct 8, 2004 and Oct 8, 2005, I?d be eligible.

My question is, the first quote is a 646-days/92 weeks/ 22. Months time frame. The second quote is 365 days/52 weeks/12 months. So which one is eligible?

As for me personally I did take a school in June ?04 and will be again in May. But here is why I am pushing for the clarification so hard. I?m sure there are others in the same boat as I am. WE WORK!. With the second quote, here would be my scenario. Since I was able to go to Hagerstown last year in June and go to school, I was not eligible for another school credit in 2004 at Hershey. This year the meet in Roanoke, VA on May 7th is the only one other than Hershey I possibly could make. I only get 5 days of vacation per year. So to make the school in Roanoke I have to use 1, which leaves the other 4 for Hershey. (Heaven forbid I get sick one day, and need one of those days.) With the example you used for Roanoke in your post, if my boss was to inform me I can?t have May 6th off, I?d miss that school and wouldn?t be eligible to judge.

I guess the shortest version of the question is, is the previous year prior (for a 2005 show), 365 days or Jan. 1, 2004

Thanks for your time.

[1937hd45]

Long story short; This rule could end judging as AACA has known it.

[novaman]

There is no reason it should. The only problem I see is if the ruling is the school has to be within 365 days prior to the show, some people just can't do it due to thier job. This is a hobby and should not have to infringe/jepordize your job just to be able to judge, which you have to pay for the privalge of doing anyways.

Being able to take an online class/school, especially one to keep you update on judging changes would solve the problem for those who still work for a living.

One thing I have found in the two regions I belong to, with the majority of them retirement age, they seem to forget the time restraints of having to work.

[1937hd45]

Does anyone know what the median age is for an AACA judge?

[Guest imported_Bookreader]

I do not have a response for that but would like to share my last Judging experience with you. I was a captain.

On my team was a first time field judge of 18 from Canada, a young man about 22-24 I would guess, a gentleman I know is in his mid to late 50's, a man probably in his earlier 50's and me; age unknown .

The youngest member of the team had judged with his dad at local shows and helped with family restoration and had a strong car interest. The next aged member was a restorer who had been trained for that work at a specific school for that. The next in age had been in the hobby for years as was the other man in his 50's who is extremely active in the AACA at both local and national level and knows cars.

That is a true representation of ages as I have often seen it on the field.

[novaman]

I'm not sure but I'm guessing it would fall in the 60-70 range. I know ex97thdrill and myself are some of the younger ones and I'm 38. I have seen & know of a few others that are younger. But still I think we're the minority. I've been a life member for about 22-24 yrs. Forgot the exact year I joined. I haven't seen a large number of new, younger members. Not saying they aren't joining but that they don't seem to be the majority.

[novaman]

Maybe at judge's breakfast they could ask for members that are under 30, 30-39, 40-49, 50-59, 60-69, 70-79, 80-89 and those "older than dirt" (just kidding) to stand up when their age range is called and take a quick count to see what the average range is. At least we would find out if we have the youth invovled to take over as the years go on, or if we need to pushing judging to recruit new judges.

[Jim Bollman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know what the median age is for an AACA judge? </div></div>

I was the youngest member when we started our region 30 or so years ago and today I am I believe the 4th youngest. I don't think the Judge pool is much different.

A computerized training program doesn't have to be expensive and could be a big help to those that only make it to one show most years. Adding schools at Hershey helped, but nothing was covered at the last two schools that couldn't have been covered online.

[OlJalopy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Long story short; This rule could end judging as AACA has known it. </div></div>

While I hate to say it, Bob, I think you are absolutely correct. I've been judging since '77, and have made as many as eight meets in a year. For the vast majority, we've arrived in the wee hours; very, very seldom early enough for a Friday judging school. Like Dave's situation, vacation time was always a precious comodity better spent with the family. We often drove hundreds of miles on Friday night, to both judge and show the next morning, and then headed back home right after the banquet. We've seen many other judges do the same.

Judging school attendance has always been encouraged, but optional, except for new judges. We've done many at Philly, but the majority of judges don't attend the Annual Meeting. Similarily, the majority of younger judges don't arrive at a meet on Thursday or Friday, like the retired folks can. The AACA judging system is as good as it is because of the simple fact that the judges are volunteers who want to judge. Mandatory restrictions on volunteers, especially when those restrictions are costly (extra time away from work; extra night's lodging, meals, tips, etc.) will ultimately result in a decrease in the number of judges attending any particular meet, except, maybe, Hershey. Meets will be judged by the core number of judges who attend the majority of meets, the judges who have vehicles on the show field, and those who live within a reasonable radius of the location and have the time to attend two days.

AACA wants to encourage younger members, and I certainly agree with that. Let's not have a rule that puts a burden on the younger judges. Instead, lets have the judges breakfast at 0700, with school at 0830, and the start of judging at noon, to give those attending school time to get their vehicle on the field.

As for myself, had this rule been in effect 20 years ago, I wouldn't be a judge today; neither would my Bride, our children, or their spouses.

[ex98thdrill]

Fred,

I'm the one who pitched this idea of online judging. I'm not trying to attack you or anyone else on the judging committee, but for the purposes of <span style="font-style: italic">consistent training</span> , quality control, ease of getting people out there to judge, retention of judges and ATTRACTING NEW JUDGES, I made this proposal.

I am not pleased with your philosphy of "committment" to the judging program. That mindset makes every appearance that it's your way or the highway. For a club whose average membership is increasing in age every year, that is a mindset that could be detrimental to the club's future. As in your case, I too spend money and time away from work to bring a car to the show as well to judge, and I don't appreciate your comments of being compensated for your time and money spent. I have sat through three judging schools and I'd have to say that the judging school was intereactive is far from being realistic. From the three times that I've sat in class you had a handfull of people asking questions, while the majority of the room was filled with people occupying space in the room and not saying a word. Based on that I've seen in my past three experiences, there is no reason from what I've seen, that the material can't be presented online and done on my own time.

As in David's case (Novaman), I too work, I get a limited amount of vacation time, and because of people who are "set in their ways" I won't be able to get the time off of work to get the required schooling in. As the current requirements for me to be "committed" intereferes with my job which pays the bills and allows me to come to meets and judge, I guess I may not be judging anymore if the choice boils down to my job, versus judging.

Please understand that this suggestion was made six months ago, with full understanding that the concept will probably take YEARS to initiate if it is adapted. Most of us are adults with at least some form of education to where we can do this online and be able to understand the material. I have full intentions of making judges training every year, but there will be times when my livelihood will interefere with me being "committed" and could create more work for individuals such as yourself.

Fred, I'm not knocking your personal committment, time or dedication. But for you implying that you do all of this work without compensation, and how you expect everyone to remain committed has stricken a nerve with me. I understand that it takes judges to make the show, but it also takes the cars. There isn't a single person who has a car on that show field who isn't any less committed or doesn't spend a lot of time or money without compensation as well.

[ex98thdrill]

Here's another thought on judging school... Do the breakfast at the same time. For new people, they do their apprenticeship first. After they do their apprenticeship, they go to school and cover what they did on the field, while administration is adding up the scores.

...If you are a returning judge, you go to judging school after you're done judging, while the scores are being added. If you haven't been to school, you don't get your chip or your credit until you do. It only takes one person to do the judges training.

....It's only an idea, but rather than complain that something is broken, here might be a way to fix it.

[1937hd45]

Pat, I enjoy your posts on this subject. I guess Judges Training has changed drasticly since the last one I attended. Is there a test now? For years the "school" at Philladelphia was a series of slides highlighting this or that right or wrong item and the following discussion on the amount of points that should be deducted. You got a chip for being in the room, some years were great others were a rerun of the previous year. With 100 years of vehicle production to judge I can't see how one "school" will cover all eras and areas of interest. Ongoing study of the area of ones personal interest is the only "school" that matters.

[novaman]

There is a "test". After you watch the slides, and listen to the instructor, he gives you a few minutes to do the test. Then he goes over the test, giving all the answers and then your are dismissed. On your way out, turn in the card (Not the test) and get your chip. If you waited long enough you get the "100" because you're given the answers even though you slept through the entire class.

The online idea was to use a program like Flash, which would give you the slide presentation and narration, then give you the exam. Suggestion was you have to make something like 80% to pass. If you don?t you take the course again. If you do pass, your name and information gets emailed to judges records so you get the credit and chip (arrangements hadn?t been discussed for delivery yet).

Basically, you watch a movie, take an online exam that indicates you paid attention and know the subject. The way it is now, the only option is to go to the class which you can sleep through and not actually do the test and get credit. The online version would actually be HARDER to do then the in-person. But you would learn more in my opinion.

I'll work on a quickie version for demostration. I'm taking a class on Flash right now so needless to say it will be a rough version as I'm learning the program.

[Shop Rat]

Merely for interest's sake here is how the Verizon safety on-line training and testing went.

It was in sections. There was a test at the end of each section. For ANY wrong answer on the test you were taken back to the paragraph(s) that covered that question so that you could re-read the information and re-test on it. As you passed each section, and you had to get them 100% right, you passed on to the next section and the test that went with it. At the end they sent a notification e-mail to the current supervisor that you had completed the training and testing, and it was entered into our personnel records.

It was very easy to use and you had to score 100% to pass.

And just so you all know, the folks in judges training do take suggestions and use them. Several years ago I sent a letter to Bob Laidlein and suggested that they use a laser pointer, or regular pointer, to show the component that was being talked about. Some of the slides were dark and not well defined and if you already did not know what the component was, then how could you tell what you were looking at? At the very next school, and ever after, they have used a laser pointer to help new judges look in the correct place for what is being discussed. Of course a laser pointer is way cheaper than setting up on-line judges training. But maybe the AACA could drum up some money or get donated tech support to get it set up so that they do not bear all the costs.

[57Chevy]

Of all the responses to my comments, yours was the only one that offered a solution. I, of course, would be very interested in your demonstration of what you were discussing using Flash.

The major concern is that someone would have to do a two hour narration - a lot of text / audio to be entered in the program. I can't even envision what it would take to have a "test". an answer key, and a way to communicate the test results - pass or fail - to a central judging records location.

I personally - I am not speaking for AACA now - think that a tougher test would eliminate more judges than it would recruit / retain. But I could be wrong !

Thanks for your volunteering to do a demonstration !

Fred Young

[57Chevy]

I must apologize for giving any impression that it is my way or AACA's way or the highway.

I feel that AACA - for the car owner and the judge - is a hobby. If you have any hobby - stamp collecting, golfing, etc. - you have to make a commitment of time, money, and interest in it.

I realize how difficult it is for an AACA member to attend national meets. I give high praise to those AACA members who drive to a meet early in the morning, show a vehicle or judge, and return home the same day. I have made suggestions about having an evening judging school for those vehicles owners / judges arriving after supper on Friday. We may be able to try it at one or tewo meets this year on a pilot basis.

I can't speak for the chief judges and meet chairmen for each national meet but I do know that Saturday morning is busy as it is now - judges breaskfast, CJE, judging, turning in scores/getting chips. To add a judging school on to Saturday's busy agenda might be the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of time commitment for the car owner who is also judging. When do you prep your vehicle; remove it from the show field; get ready for the banquet if there is anything else to do that day.

Frankly, I do not think that AACA currently has the financial assets or staffing ( all national officers, national meet chairs, chief judges, all judges, and people like myself - in judges training or judges records or meet administration are all volunteers) to handle the online judging school scenario. Online judging school sounds like a great item for consideration for AACA's long term / strategic plan.

My sole interest in Judges Training is to provide the best information possible in the most interesting manner. I will continue to work toward those goals. Suggestions like online judging school and other future suggestions may be the natural progression of AACA's judging program which started small and has grown in stature, prestige, dedication ( of many thousands of AACA members), and results - presenting the appropriate awards to AACA owner vehicles.

Fred Young

[novaman]

I managed to throw a very simple presentation together. It took me about an hour to do this but understand this is the FIRST time I have used Flash. In two weeks is my first class to be using it, so to do this much, I had to figure out the program. I haven't figured out the parts yet to do the test part or sound.

For the test part, the program can take care of the answers. The results can be emailed directly to the chairman of judge?s records. Excuse the phrase "This isn't rocket science."

I would presume to do the judges training in person, you have a script to go by. Take that, scan it into a word processing file of it wasn?t created with one. You have your text to work from. Scan any photos needed. Then it is mainly page layout like doing a newsletter. There is a little script work to do. The first program would be the hardest one to do most likely.

Like I said before, I had to figure out how to use Flash to do this one but it gives you an idea of what it could look and act like. I can't attach the file so I'll stick on a website and post the link.

[novaman]

Okay, I have it posted. Sample program access Now remember, this is just very basic at the moment. There can be anitmation and sound added. I just not sure how to do it at the moment.

Please ignore spelling errors or the fact that infromation may not be accurate. This is just a sample!

[1937hd45]

Nova, I may be the first to view that, GREAT job! This could be something of interest to non judges as well.

[Guest imported_Brenda Shore]

Novaman -

I am impressed. You have done a great job in providing a 'demo' that provides the chance to look at this as a viable option.

Thank you for your interest and time.

Brenda

[ex98thdrill]

Fred:

Apology accepted. After talking with Steve Moskowitz, AACA will have to get the software to support the concept if it should be adopted, and of course it will take time and money. Being one of the younger life members, I definately would like to see the future of the club steered in the right direction. Of course the whole concept is not to replace Judging Schools, rather than an effort to supplement and enhance what we already have.

As I've said before, my interest is to get the basic judging school online. When it comes to a formal judging school taking place, you present the same program as what is online, but the only difference is that you have people present to answer the questions and discuss the material.....that's it. If every year you develop some new CJE's prior to the Annual Meeting in Philly, you post them on the web, and next year at the Annual Meeting, you develop more CJE's. Every year after the Annual Meeting, you add more CJE's to the web. Within 10 years, AACA would have a vast library of CJE's that could be viewed on the web and/or downloaded for use at local chapter events.

...I would love to get involved with my local AACA chapter (GVACS), and I'd be interested in getting involved on the National level, but with my job I have to work weekends, so most of my three weeks of vacation time pretty much gets eaten up going to National Meets. When you throw job seniority into the picture, getting time off on weekends makes it even tougher.

....Am I committed?? YOU BET!!! In the last four years my dad and I have completed our annual judging schools, CJE's, apprenticeships, and we've done some judging. In that same time, we've also done three full restorations (we're working on restoration number four as we speak) and we've taken one 2nd Junior, three 1st Juniors, two Seniors, one 2nd AGNM, and one 1st AGNM. You can ask Dizzy Dale or Peter Heizman and they can personally speak of the amount of gasoline that runs through the veins of my dad and I. In fact, you can almost say that the whole town is like that as well.

Please understand that the intent is to allow people the opportunity to enhance their education and knowledge. In my current situation, the most CJE's that I can make it to in a given year is two. Given my circumstances on the current situation, I'd hardly be able to retain what I've learned let alone enhance my knowledge. Online judging and CJE's could possibly allow everyone the chance to one day take as many as ten CJE's (but can only get credit for 1 per year). The end result.... A BETTER JUDGE!! Of course this will be an issue where we have to crawl and walk before we can even think of running. This will take time, but if it is implemented carefully, the club would definately benefit.

David (Novaman):

Based on what I saw of your example, you're definately grasping the idea that I was trying to drive home. With a little fine tuning, it could be a really good thing.

[57Chevy]

Novaman,

You've not only a home run - it's a grand slam ! That sample presentation is excellent as a sample of what can be done. I would ask that you send a brief letter to me in an envelope addressed to the AACA headquarters address with a notation on it - Please Forward to Fred Young. I'd like you to list your name, address, phone number, and email address so that I can get information about the Flash software and other related information. There is a meeting of the Class Judging Committee at the AACA Annual Meeting in Philadelphia the second week of February. If you can get the info out to me ASAP, I'll raise the issue of online judging training at the committee meeting.

Thanks so much for your assistance. We need people like you on the judges training staff for the future. Thanks again -look to hear from you soon.

[57Chevy]

ex98thdrill -

An excellent idea about accumulating CJE presentations into a veritable on-line library of judges training. Ambitious - but one step at a time could make a significant impact on the future of AACA judging - and it might encourage AACA members and judges to contribute their expertise to the entire training pool. I would ask that you send me the same information - your name, address, email address - that I asked Novaman to send me. Send it to AACA headquarters - mark the envelope Please Forward to Fred Young. I'd like the info prior to the annual meeting in Philadelphia in the second week of February. You might be another component of judes training in the future, if we can work out the details.

Get back to me through AACA ASAP. Thanks for your contributions - you and Novaman are being listened to and paid attention to.

Fred Young

[OlJalopy]

Dave ~ Excellent job on the sample program. You young fellers have got it all over us ol' folk. I can make this magic box do what I need it to, but not near as well as you can. Guess I was born about 40 years too soon. Computers filled rooms when I was your age, and a flash was what one used to increase the exposure light for indoor photography.

Pat ~ Great idea for the CJE program. That's an area where the lessons can be retained, modified, and reused many times over. Nothing better than a computer for doing that. Having seen your & Nelson's vehicles, and read some of your posts, I can honestly say that no one should doubt your dedication to the hobby. Don't worry too much about the lack of vacation. It'll come, as you move up the ladder and your seniority builds.

57Chevy ~ If you click on the titles "Novaman" and "ex98thdrill" in their posts, you'll see their email addresses at the top of their profiles. Send an email to them. Then they will have your email address, and can reply directly to you, rather than going through the snail-mail process with Headquarters.

Guess we all have to remember - good things take time.

[novaman]

A Grand Slam!!?? And i didn't even get a chance to figure out all the bells and whistles yet. That sample was only the tip of the iceberg in reguards to what the program can to.

[novaman]

I was re-reading this thread and this popped out at me

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Finally, complaints come from every conceivable class and decade. The complaints are not primarily from post 1960s cars. The complaints are based on the level of vehicle restoration by the owner and the documentation which the owner has and the owner's perceived quality of judging of her/his vehicle </div></div>

Online classes might help to ease some of the complaints by owners being able to take the same classes as the judges. I'm especially thinking of one class could be on solely the AACA Judging point system. I have spoken with several people about it because they couldn't understand it. There are probably other areas that car owners could benefit from too.

Details of how and what are included and who has access are all details that can be worked out.

I sent you a private message so, make sure you click that flashing envelope towards the top of your screen

[ronbarn]

Novaman, Am not much for baseball metaphors, but will say that your demo is magnificent. It shows what can be done. Steve's statement regarding cost of program and programming may be misleading. The software is not expensive and the judging schools have a history of being put together by voluntary labor. This is certainly something to be considered, especially since the new schools are going to be on Power Point. Great job!

[novaman]

The Flash program would usable in place of Powerpoint. Flash will work onth internet or a indivdual computer. One really big adavantge should be file size. The Flash program should be considerably smaller.

Fred, if you could send me a copy of the PowerPoint program, I'll see what the difference would be. I can make a copy of it in Flash to compare. If the powerpoint program doesn't have sound to it, please send a copy of the script that is being used. Thanks. You should have a letter from me in a day or two with my address.

[ex98thdrill]

Thank you for your kind words 'Ol Jalopy, and Fred.

David: You definately have a Grand Slam. My only downfall is that I haven't played with Flash or Powerpoint enough to put something together that would be good. I've been spending the last three months converting all of the minutes, pictures, and profiles of all of the members who have belonged to East Bloomfield Fire Dept. to CD Rom. Being that the fire department was formed in 1922, one can only imagine how much time it takes to go through 83 years worth of of paper documents, newspaper articles and pictures to put it all onto CD rom. This has taken a tremendous amount of time, but the finished product will be nice when it's done. The beauty of it is that once it's done, all of the artifacts will remain crisp and new, while the originals can remain in the safe without further deterioration, theft, loss, etc. What will be nice is that when someone wants a picture of a family member, the community, an old truck, etc. I will be able to just give them a CD and they will be able to take that CD and print off and purchase whatever pictures they want. Once this is done, as a member, if someone is about to be recognized, I will have a complete biography done on every member that can be used in presentation of awards. If in the event, we lose one of our members, we can use this same biography to present to the family.

[novaman]

The advantage of Flash over PowerPoint is you can make it more interactive. PowerPoint was designed for presentation not interactive other than advance/goback/stop. With PowerPoint, to do the school on the web, if you were to use it you have to wait for the whole program to load. If you are on dail-up and it is over 2-3MB you'll wait forever. Flash will run as it loads so while you are viewing it, the program will still be loading what you haven't gotten to yet.

The one and only disadvantage to Flash I can think of is someone needs to know how to do the scripting work that makes it interactive. Scripting is the part that tells the program to go to some part of the "movie", what to do when you push a button, what to do with you answer to a fill in the blank question/right or wrong answer and what to do in either case, etc.

As I go through this class I'm taking, I'll post updated versions of the sample program to demonstrate more of what it can do.

Another thought ocurred to me yesterday due to someone's comment at work, but with the one year rule, if there is always the chance that you have an accident or get sick/hospitalized and can't make a show that you planned on getting the judging school. Now you probably have used up more of your vaction time leaving less chance at geting a Thurs and Fri so you can get to another school (Thurs) and take the class on Friday. If the accident/illness fell at the end of your year's time, it could put you several months over until you're able to get to the next show and not have the vaction time for Friday's school.

[ex98thdrill]

Yeah you're right. Last year alone, there were two vehicles involved in accidents of some sort on the way to a meet. If the people who had the mishaps were judges, the mishaps may have played a role in their ability to judge.

[ex98thdrill]

Fred I sent you a private message. If you don't get it, e-mail me @ pathorpe@rochester.rr.com

[Steve Moskowitz]

Ron, Pat may have misinterpreted my comments. I do not recall the conversation but certainly it must have revolved around our <span style="font-weight: bold">current</span> proprietary software which I will not comment on any furthur. I totally support this thread and got Fred Young involved in it as quick as I could. I am happy that Fred is progressive and is helping our Judges Training program to move into the future. If it is the right thing to do, we can find ways to financially and organizationally make the changes. This is when the Forum works best in my opinion and I am thrilled with the positive way in which people are not just criticizing but offering a <span style="font-weight: bold">solution</span> !

[ex98thdrill]

Yep, you're right Steve, I was reviewing a past thread and I screwed up. Sorry. As I said to you in July, my intent isn't to poor gas on a fire.

At this point, I can probably get by with what we have, but with the online CJE's, I would be able to retain the knowledge on CJE's on a regular basis without having to rely on what is presented on the two meets a year that I make.

[1937hd45]

On the subject of CJE's, once this online system is setup could individuals submit a proposed CJE, get it approved by the VP of Class Judging, and share their knowledge on a subject?

[Shop Rat]

Sounds like a great idea to me. If we don't continue to get new ones then sooner or later we are going to end up repeating the ones we have already taken. Sure, we can learn new information from new instructors that might cover something another one did not. But totally new CJE's would be great.

[ex98thdrill]

I would think so. Some people lack the ability to stand up and talk in front of a group, and this method of instruction would be a great way to get this information out. As some of the subject matter experts on the brass cars pass away, we need to get their knowledge and preserve it so that the future judges can gain that knowledge. The beauty of the computer is that the documentation doesn't get old and brittle. Remember, every year we get a new crop of cars to judge. Last year it was 1979, this year it will be 1980, and next year we'll be judging 1981 cars.

One would think that if a library of CJE's were established, and new CJE's were developed for the different areas, and new cars and classes come to AACA every year, I would like to think that you would have more CJE's available to the point where you could teach a different subject at every meet and still not be able to cover every CJE subject in a given year ......even if you make all of the meets! This could take 20 years, but you can't rule out the possibility that if this concept grows, you could very well one day be taking a specific CJE pertaining to the class that you are about to judge. I'm not saying that we need to go to that extent, but the time may come where we may be given that opportunity.

The days of finding subject matter experts on the brass cars are fading. Within time it'll be the experts on Model A's, Corvettes etc. The judges and experts may be gone, but the cars are still showing up, and we need to have trained judges that are able to properly and effectively judge them.

....Remember, this is only a concept of mine that I've been kicking around. I have no authority, nor am I trying to preach gospel. This is not something directed towards someone to make changes to something. The purpose of this was to create awareness and generate thoughts. The individuals responsible for the training that we get, spend a lot of their own time and are doing a good job. I started a thread pertaining to this issue only in an effort to generate some thoughts to others, and not to create ill feelings.

The whole basis for starting this topic? My job creates a situation that allows me to only make one or two meets a year. Hershey of course doesn't take time to do CJE's because they're busy, and one or two CJE's a year doesn't cut it when it pertains to trying to better learn the judging system. I'm sure if a library of CJE's were to be established, it not only benefits the new judges, but may also give the old judges more of a variety of topics to keep them interested.