R W Burgess Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 On another site, the subject of a "Ferrari for sale" came up. I'm thinking about needing "Guido" to keep that menagerie of rotating parts all turning in the correct direction. Now, I see these Ferrari's advertized all the time, as just having their so and so 12,000 mile tuneup done, usually to the tune of thousands of dollars. Is this necessary folks? Are the normal run of the mill Americans too stupid to tune up V-12 engines? And what do we have to look forward to in the future with all of these computer repairs to deal with. Sounds like fun, right? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Dear Wayne,I would think that someone that owns a V-12 Ferrari does not even think about gettin their hands dirty and ruinin their manicure.Remember these are the folks that do not mow the lawn,wash the car or clean their own house or pool.NOW you wanna talk about some FUN,try changin the wire set on my 39 Zephyr,threadin all those ignition wires through the looms,pluggin em in the RIGHT holes in the caps.Bet i check em 10 times before i put the caps together.You know on second thought GUIDO is good with spaghetti he should be good with ALL these wires.diz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 Don't know about that Dizz. A lot of Corvettes are in the same price range as a Ferrari nowadays. I've lusted over a Lambo for years, but fear the learning curve would be too steep to enable me to keep the thing running. Remember the stupid "American" post above. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Wayne, A fellow we both know in York has a few Ferraris, and I was supprised to find out you can get one for @ $20,000. You could swap your '32 coupe and get gas money to go with the trade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 Hey Bob, didn't say I wanted to trade. You know I keep all of my stuff, although the '35 Ford may find a new home. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Probably in the case of an exotic, I should take a ride first. It might be cheaper in the long run. Anybody got any info on the tuneup specials for the Ferrari? Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Wayne, After you rebuild the dual throat Weber carb you can rebuilt the other five. The distributor is easy, once you do the first one the other should be a lot easier and quicker to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Dear Wayne and Bob,Remember Magnum P.I. the tv show,Tom Selleck had a Ferrari.I think those cars are built for people under 5'9" his head was always way over the windshield .Wayne i got an idea,you can take the seat out and sit on a truckin magazine.The firin order for the V-12 is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2-9-10-11-12 these numbers are familiar for some reason....sounds like a GOOD place to start.Never worked on a Weber carb,Weber might be another way to spell NIGHTMARE.diz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuhner Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 How about rebuilding a wrecked one? Check the cars for sale on this web site. I could'nt even imagine. http://www.readytofix.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 I spent a little time under the hood of a '71 Daytona V-12, and found that it wasn't any more difficult to work on than any other vintage car. Yes, it has its peculiarities, but nothing that an advanced hobbyist couldn't handle. To be honest, the Weber setup on a '65 Shelby Mustang was a lot more difficult to sychronize than the carbs on that Ferrari. But internal combustion engines all pretty much work the same way, and there's no "magic" involved in the exotics. I think the thing that gives the exotics their bad rep is that they are technically <span style="font-style: italic">racing</span> engines de-tuned for the street. As such, they don't provide the same care-free maintenance that, say, your small-block Chevy has. Imagine that your '55 Chevy has adjustable mechanical lifters, adjustable pushrods, adjustable rocker arms, two ignition systems, two fuel systems, an adjustable carburetor linkage, six carburetors, etc, never mind the fact that there are <span style="font-style: italic">3 times</span> as many valves and 50% more cylinders! Maintenance needs would skyrocket! That's the case with the Ferrari--they're designed to be fully adjustable, hence their reputation for needing service frequently--all those parts need to be kept in spec.So, yes, the demands are somewhat greater, but the complexity isn't anything that a good amateur couldn't handle. <span style="font-weight: bold">Wayne,</span> if you've got a line on a V12 Ferrari, I say go for it! If you're even a little bit competent, you'll definitely enjoy the rewards that one of these machines can provide. I still get goosebumps thinking about the way that Daytona felt on a quick blast around the block. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">And the sound!</span></span>Check this site out: www.tomyang.net. Tom bought a '63 Ferrari 330 GT America V-12 <span style="font-style: italic">in boxes</span> and put it back together! He's done about 95% of the work himself, and the tasks that weren't done by him, he at least participated in the process. I didn't see anything there that was so different from any other engine I've ever worked on.Now, if you want complex, how about this Rolls-Royce Phantom III V-12 rebuild? It seems that RR refused to use just 1 part when 20 or more would do the job! Despite it being a familiar OHV-type engine, there were <span style="font-style: italic">a lot</span> of parts on that engine I couldn't even recognize--it looked like a steam locomotive, not a luxury car! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Yeah Wayne- nothing is more over-rated than the secret and magical exotic car tune ups. I say this in a country where the inexpensive V-8 is king and always has been affordable by the masses. When Henry Ford set out to beat Ferrari in international racing with the Cobra and GT-40 they did it with a bunch of V-8s that didn't know they were technically inferior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 To Twitch, Dizz, and Matt. Ok, I can see the idea. I've been involved with Detroit Deisels with dual fuel racks and separate injectors adjustments. If you can't get the adjustment you need, you go to the next adjusting point. Race engines, didn't occur to me. The heck with it. I'd tighten up half of the valve adjustments to get "6" cylinders worth of valves off their seats and call it a V-6. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Would make for a sorry sounding Ferrari I guess. And sorry running too, I might add. And you wonder why rodders like Chevy motors! Side pipes on a Corvette sounds good too, and the heck with that tuning mess. Oops, you still have mechanical lifters to deal with, I guess. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the good answers to my stupid questions, that was informative...and fun. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyDale Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Dear Matt,Just read your post....Are you kiddin or is the part about adj. lifters,adj. pushrods and adj. rocker arms TRUE....Sounds like an awful lot just to open and close a valve.Maybe had something to do with Ford kickin their ass at Lemans in 1966 with a 289.diz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Bigrig, if you remember Euronut could rebuild these things in his sleep for less then $1000. He shouldn't be too hard to find. And Diz, the only way Ford beat the Ferrari's was with lots of $$$$$. Ol' Shel has been quoted as saying there was no racing budget, anything he wanted he got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Matt,Just read your post....Are you kiddin or is the part about adj. lifters,adj. pushrods and adj. rocker arms TRUE....Sounds like an awful lot just to open and close a valve.Maybe had something to do with Ford kickin their ass at Lemans in 1966 with a 289.diz </div></div>Actually I was just trying to make a comparison by making the valvetrain on a Chevy as adjustable as possible to put the Ferrari's engine in perspective. Of course, as overhead cam designs, Ferraris do not have pushrods or lifters. However, many Ferrari valvetrains require adjustments to the cam followers and/or setting valve lash as part of their routine maintenance, just like any engine with mechanical lifters. They are complex, but I found it much easier to work on than, say, my wife's Audi TT's timing belt, which was a nightmare! There was nothing in that Daytona's engine that I didn't immediately recognize or understand as we took it apart. Some of the parts were quite small, I suppose in the interest of low reciprocating mass, and some of the assemblies were complex, but there were no Flux Capacitors or Dilithium Crystals in there, either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">no Flux Capacitors or Dilithium Crystals in there, either! </span> </div></div> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Wait, I know all about them. I used to watch a lot of Star Trek! "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here!" <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 You mean?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yes, like that! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 The RR Phantom III V Twelve engine has been hailed by some the engineering masterpiece of the 1930's. Almost everything on it is aluminum, and it has wet liner cylinders like a Marmon Sixteen. There were some lubrication issues with them when new. These engines were designed to be run in a flat surface. The problem was when they put them in the chassis, the front of the engine rested in the frame maybe a quarter or a half incher higher than at the rear. This caused oil to run towards the rear of the engine when it wasn't running. Thus when you started one up, the front of the engine didnt get lubrication quite as fast as it should have, causing wear. Rebuilders have corrected this problem by plugging up a few oil drain holes in the heads and improving the oil pumps. The other problems these engines had was corrosion of the aluminum heads. RR knew this was going to be a problem, and the cars has "waisted" head studs when new to help facilitate easy removal of the heads. Well, they corroded anyway, and can be very difficult to remove. I actually witnessed the partial dissassembly of a P III engine at a RR technical seminar a few years back, and after you study everything & have a "game plan" it's not as bad as it looks. It's not the type of car you just start "ripping parts of off" though. I would suggest a digital camera during disassembly. One other thing in case you didn't know, the P III engines have the "fork and blade" rod arrangement, just like a 1932 KB Lincoln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 Thanks for your comments. I've just begun reading one of Gorden White's books, "Offenhauser", and noticed the attention to detail those fellows used with the Offy. A good read so far. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J446 Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Having worked on a Ferrari or two I have the folowing thoughts. Yes they are cars but they can be very labor intensive. In addition older ones can become a rust nightmare and that causes a host of problems. The materials are often alloy and they corrode and rot and the bodies esp. alloy ones require special skills. Parts are another issue. Some of them become VERY scarce. It took me several years to track down some of them and a simple switch can cost $300. A dashboard display for an F 50 costs $10,000 if you can find one. A fuel cell for an F40 $18,000. Somethings nolonger exist. A repacement block for my 166swould have to be made. (There is one replacement engine/transmition avail asking 135,000 euros!)These two links will give you some example of whats involved.http://www.gt40s.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=20333http://www.gt40s.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=20857BestJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Jim, thanks for the links to see your adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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