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Dealer Name tag on trunk,deductions?


Hemiragtop
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I was lucky enough to have the history of my 66 Belvedere and knew what dealership it sold out of new. After searching for FOUR years, I was able to find an original dealer tag for the trunk. I intend to put it on, as it is original to the car, I have the original window sticker to document the dealership, my question is, Will I get deductions for this? I recently won my first Junior and intend on taking the car for it's Senior and all the way up to Senior Grand National level.

Thanks in advance,

John Piazza

P.S Happy Holidays to all

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John,

I'm not an AACA judge and I'm sure you'll hear from one but, here's my thoughts. Yes, it will receive a point deduction (I don't know how many points, maybe just one) because AACA judges cars as compared to the way they left the factory, not the way they left the dealership and the dealer would have installed this tag. However, I would probably install it anyway. I know the origin of one of my 61 Chevrolets, if I could find one of those tags from that dealership, I would put it on the car. The car that I am referring too is already a Sr. Grand National, I probably wouldn't have put it on until after I won the Sr GN though. Just my thoughts

Tommy Nolen

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Tommy,

Thanks for your input. I'm just so excited to find this "Final Touch" I recently received, my only problem is I just received my "Junior" and from what I'm told, I have to wait for an extended period of time before I can qualify for Grand National shows. I would hate to wait 1 1/2 half to apply it. frown.gif, My car is slated to be in a few Magazine spreads and I would love to have it for the photo shoots.

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The Judges Manual has this to say about badges.

Should Clear up the matter to the point where the water is quite muddy!

"BADGE DISPLAY

a. Club badges and license plate frames

with club names other than AACA will

NOT be subject to a deduction for

authenticity, if they are appropriate to

the vehicle and displayed in good

taste. They will still be judged for condition.

b. Excessive display of club badges will

result in a total deduction of not more

than two points.

c. [color:"red"] ."BADGE DISPLAY

a. Club badges and license plate frames

with club names other than AACA will

NOT be subject to a deduction for

authenticity, if they are appropriate to

the vehicle and displayed in good

taste. They will still be judged for condition.

b. Excessive display of club badges will

result in a total deduction of not more

than two points.

[color:"red"]

c. Non-authentic license plate frames

and advertising badges are not acceptable,

regardless of the number or

manner in which they are displayed.

[color:"black"]

I think your dealer badge might qualify as an advertising badge!

As state above they are not acceptable.

I would deduct 1 point if I was the exterior Judge.

You make the call.

If it's not there there can be no question about it.

I agree with you that the complete documented history of the car is neat!

But, if your goal is is a Senior and then a A.G.N.M. Senior you will have to make some decisions.

Perhaps you could find a way to make a plaque of some sort that would showcase the original dealer badge and window sticker and display it near the car.

After your Show goals are met, you could put the badge on the car.

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I agree with you and think that for now the plaque/display is a super idea.

And something that every person showing a car should remember. ONE point can make or break your ability to get an award. If you are one point outside the cut-off you will not get the award you could have gotten. So this is where you do "sweat the small stuff".

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I think this comes down to the judge,you may get a sphear buster, maybe not. Personally if I was the guy doing exteriors I'd let it fly. Back in 1976 when I bought my first new Ford pick up I told the salesman I'd refuse the vehicle if they put one of those dealer logos on it. To each their own.

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Earl ~ Just a point for discussion and not to be considered as advocating anything one way or the other. smile.gif

Back when many of our '50s and later cars were delivered the dealers affixed those name logos to the back of the car and there was nothing the buyer could do about it. In the early years of this practice they were attached by drilling 2 or 3 holes in the body. More recently they have been attached by some sort of adhesive material and can be removed without leaving holes.

This was not like a non authentic accessory that was installed by an owner or by a dealer at the owner's request.

Back in 1956 I ORDERED a new Buick and specified NO DEALER NAMETAG. When I went to get the car, there was the dealer nametag. The option I had was to either live with it or refuse the car and forfeit my deposit. Nor much of a choice. I later hid it behind a continental kit.

I have just purchased a '63 Corvair and it has 3 holes where the dealer tag once was. Since this will be a driver, I am going to cover the holes with a stick on dealer tag rather than fill 3 holes and paint the area. The holes offend me and the tag is a quick fix.

Should the current rule receive a review?

hvs

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We don't like the dealership "tags" or license plate frames either. And the minute we get home the frame comes off and the tag is removed if it can be taken off with no damage. Most of the ones around here put a vinyl type decal on so they come off fairly easily.

If I walked up to a car and it had the drilled hole style I would not deduct for that. I don't expect owners to risk damaging the car for something the dealer did. But if the car did not have one I would not add one and risk a point deduction. The more of anthing a car has, the more points that can be taken off for condition if nothing else.

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In regards to my car specifically, I have pictures of the car when it was 6 months old and the picture shows the "Dealership tag" on the trunk, it was a sticker. I was lucky enough to find an ex- manager of the dealership and get an original sticker. I had a magnet made as a duplicate which I'm able to add to trunk, but it doesn't look as good as the original. I appreciate all the replies. grin.gif

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Howard,

You are completely correct that the old ones had holes drilled in the trunklid (usually). I have a whole box of NOS chrome "DUNCAN BROTHERS, POCOMOKE CITY, MD" here in the garage with the three holes in them. I also have a half dozen of the chrome metal glue on types that simply say "MONTROSS" that a friend gave to me when the local Ford garage closed a couple of years ago. And best of all, I puchased one at a flea market that says "STANLEY HORNER BUICK, WASHINGTON, DC" which is where my blue 39 Buick was bought new. This was once the largest dealership in the area, at least as large as Kelly Buick in Baltimore. I even have a chrome plate glued onto the back window of our 2001 Buick that I found. It says "BEAUCHAMP'S, WARSAW, VA" (a Plymouth dealership that was once here). Mentioning Kelly Buick, an AACA member who was once a mechanic there gave me a cordoroy jacket with "KELLY BUICK" embroderied (that spelled right Shop Rat? Gotta ask a lady how to spell that work <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

I think this dealer stuff is kind of neat, first. And, unlike Shop Rat, I like the dealership nameplate or stickers IF they say the name of the city or town. It sort of reminds me of these yachts and speedboats they have around here that have something like "Miss Lillian, Colonial Beach, VA" on the tail end.

I would not advocate allowing these for judging either. However, it would be kind of neat to see where a car originated. The 1966 Chrysler convertible we used to tour is now owned by somebody in Florida, but it still has the decal on the back bumper from the dealership in Verona, NJ. I had any number of people comment on the fact that it came from their home town. I've looked for years in this area for a Chrysler or Plymouth that had "BAUSERMAN'S CHRYSLER-PLYMOUTH, ARLINGTON, VA" on it. Mr. Bauserman was a close friend of my dad's.

So you see, here is a chance to have another collection within our collections <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Close Dynaflash8. It should be embroidered rather than embroderied. But we all know what you meant. smile.gif

As for not liking the tags and plate frames. The tags are hard to clean around, they gather polish dust that is hard to remove and the metal ones get stuff stuck under them and can stay damp and cause rust. The vinyl ones can peel and look crummy if poor quality vinyl is used. So we take the vinyl ones off and ask that they not put the stick on metal ones on to start with. The plate frames many times cover part of the license plate and Bill and I believe that the plate should be unobstructed. The plate is there as identification and should be easy to read. I do have one of the "barbed wire" plate frames on my PT Cruiser, but it is thin and only covers the outside edges and does not cover any of the rest of the plate.

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I had the "i" in there and then took it off. And yes, I don't like the cheapie plastic framss either, but then, I don't like plastic. Think McDonalds...plastic tables that look like wood, plastic curtains that look like cloth, plastic flowers that look like flowers, hamburgers that taste like plastic -- <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Earl ~ The burger taste is a personal matter. I think they taste like shirt cardboard, not plastic. smirk.gifsmirk.gifgrin.gifgrin.gif

My car came from Brooks-Price on North Avenue because my father had a falling out with Kelly Buick. It had something to do with work they did on my mother's '37 Century Convertible right after the war. 10 years later he was still pi$$ed. Black, sidemounted, red upholstery and tan top. How I wish I had that one today. It had been my mother's 35th birthday present.

Howard

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Yeah if you want to go for a Senior AGNM, DON'T DO IT!! If you didn't get your senior in 2004, it will be 2007 before you reach the Senior AGNM level. <span style="font-weight: bold">AND THAT WILL BE IF YOU GET THE JUNIOR AND SENIOR AGNM ON THE FIRST TRY</span> . I agree with Earl, but if you're serious about the awards that you want, wait until you reach the level that you want to be at before you put the dealer label on your car.

I would really hate to see you or anyone else take their car from NYC, all the way to Colorado next July and come home empty handed due to having the dealer's name on the back of your car. The difference between winning and losing can boil down to one point, and if a certain judge decided to take that one point off for the dealer name, that judge is fully within their rights, are you could come out on the losing end. I probably wouldn't deduct the point, but being the young guy, I usually get stuck with doing chassis, so I couldn't help you.

Every vehicle that I've ever owned, I usually had the dealer's name off of the vehicle before it made it to my driveway. I've always felt that when the dealer got several thousand dollars out of my pocket, and don't pay me to advertise for them, the name comes off (sorry Steve).

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I have judged exteriors a lot. If I were to look at a car with a tag on the trunk I would look to see if it might damage the car to take it off. If so then I would not deduct for it being there. If it could be easily removed without damage, but had not been, then I would take a point off. If it could not be removed, but was in bad shape I would take at least a point off, more if it was in really crummy shape.

I will tell you that I do not rememeber seeing a tag on a truck since I started judging. That tells me that owners are removing them.

If it did not have one I darned sure would not add one while it was still coming up through the judging process.

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Your last comment only makes common sense Shop Rat. I'm sure the judging people would want the point off no matter what unless maybe the car was an HPOF, and they don't point judge those. That doesn't detract from my own personal opinion that if the are truly original to the original dealer that sold that particular car, they are kind of neat....yet, not good for having the car judged.

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Those tags are a "rock and a hard place" item. Especially the ones that were put on buy actually drilling holes in the trunk. Like I said, those if in good condition would not get a point taken off by me. There is more risk in taking it off and filling the holes and having to sand and repaint. Sorry, not going to put someone through that. But others might. So I say play it safe, display the one you have on a board or plaque until you get the awards you want and do whatever you want with it after that.

grin.gif

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Shop Rat, you make an interesting point, but there is something in the logic that bothers me. If the car is fully restored, then it most likely had a complete paint job. If an owner removed the tag ( again most likely) to paint the car and then reinstalled the tag, the owner does not deserve the break you provide. There should be a deduction for a dealer installed tag.

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No, what I am talking about is a very, very good original un-restored car that has not been repainted. From me that car would not receive the point deduction for the dealer trunk tag if it could not be removed without risking damaging the finish or leaving holes. I don't think it would be "humane" to deduct for something a dealer did before the car was purchased with no authorization from the purchaser to put it on.

But I totally agree with you that a restored car with new paint should not have the dealer trunk tag put back on. That car would receive the point deduction. As someone suggested, put it on a display board and after the car gets the awards the owner is seeking, then decide whether to put it back on. As I said above, I do not remember seeing one on a car at an AACA show.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what's sad is the AACA will take off for that, but you can put non-correct BRAND headlights in your car and be fine crazy.gif </div></div>

Well part of me agrees with you, I personally think it adds to the "Nostalgia" of the vehicle and is more documentation for the vehicle, but I do respect the rules and probably will keep it off for now. I'm confident that the car would do well at any AACA event but you never know when one point will make the difference. Thanks for all the replies.

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Ron,

I think these folks have forgotten one of the first things taught at AACA judging school. <span style="font-weight: bold">AACA judges restored vehicles</span>. If they have an origional vehicle that they are going to have judged, it will be judged under the standards that the restored vehicles are judged. Good AACA judges should know this.

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Dear John,I saw your car at Hershey this year,SUPER job.What i wanted to ask was have you shown the car at any Chrysler,Plymouth or Mopar shows?These individual marque shows are always much more critical and closely scrutinized than the AACA and just wondered if and what they had to say in regard to this matter.diz smile.gif

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{what's sad is the AACA will take off for that, but you can put non-correct BRAND headlights in your car and be fine]

I don't know about that statement, I've seen judges check for the T-3 in the headlights on my GM cars. I've actually heard some discussions by judges about which year models had the fine lines inside the triangle in the center of the sealed beam and which didn't

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Several years ago, and I can probably find out when in my notebook, because of a shortage of T-3 headlights the AACA decided to no longer deduct points if a GM car did not have the T-3's.

But the headlights must match as to brand and era. (Don't mix a GE and a General Electric, they are different eras.) Cars did not come off the line with a Wagner, T-3, GE and a FoMoCo. (Just a weird example for illustration purposes only.) There is a one point deduction for any non-matching headlight. So you would count one of those as correct and three as wrong.

It would be unrealistic to expect any judge to know every brand that was ever in any brand of car and for what years. That is what marque shows are for, where they can nit-pick for that kind of thing and do. AACA judges are all volunteers that spend a lot of money to travel to shows. My husband and I have yet to show a car, it is still in the process of him restoring it. But we travel to judge to help keep the hobby alive. And until we retired we took vacation to do it. All for an aluminum "chip" that is not even solid brass any more.

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Shoprat,

You may have misunderstood my remarks, I wasn't complaining about the judges at all. I appreciate what the judges do, without them, we'd be in deep trouble. I didn't realize that AACA had relaxed the rules on the headlights. I think the headlights should be correct for the make and model auto. There's no reason not to have the T-3 headlights, they are being reproduced.

Tommy

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Not a problem. But some people do rag on judges and they have never judged and have no idea what we go through. And sad to say, there are some well meaning people out there that have no business judging. A good captain will fill out the report on the team and let the folks in charge know that a judge is not up to the task. I have only had to do that once and was assured that she would not go back out until she was properly re-trained. I have seen her twice this year but have not judged with her since. But the person that assured me she would be re-trained is someone I trust to do that.

No AACA judge should be looking for T-3's now. If a car has them fine. But if not fine. They only have to match brand and era within brand and be in good shape. According to the rule book, they don't even have to work.

I had heard that they are being reproduced again, but I am not sure if the AACA will go back on allowing other brands. I think most people if they themselves want the car "correct" will get some and put them in as the others wear out.

I think that everyone, if they are able, should go to some judging schools even if they don't decide to judge. It is interesting, and now with the CJE classes you get indepth information on the different areas.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear John,I saw your car at Hershey this year,SUPER job.What i wanted to ask was have you shown the car at any Chrysler,Plymouth or Mopar shows?These individual marque shows are always much more critical and closely scrutinized than the AACA and just wondered if and what they had to say in regard to this matter.diz smile.gif </div></div>

Diz, thank you for the kind words grin.gif Actually my car was invited indoors at Chrysler @ Carlisle this Summer and have had other cars of mine win at big shows like the Mopar Nationals, and the reaction is quite the oppisite. The "Dealer Badge" adds to the pedigree of the car, along with the list of ownership history, dealer paper work etc, and many Mopar guys covet these badges if they are lucky to find one for their car.

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And there lies the rub. It is like having divorced parents and two sets of rules. One does not overlap into the others house.

Worse yet is the guy that comes to their first AACA show with a trunk full of local show first place trophies and they don't even get a third at the AACA show. They don't understand how that could happen. They may have a very nice car, but if it has incorrect items, no matter how nice they might be, it is going to kill them at one of our shows.

So if someone is going to show in more than one arena, they have to play by the rules of the arena they are currently in.

So if not having the trunk tag does not get deductions at a MOPAR show and having one does at an AACA show, go with not having it. And if there is a deduction at a MOPAR show for not having it and a deduction for having it at the AACA show, find out how much the deduction is and go with whichever one will hurt you the least. You have to play the game if you are going to win.

Lots of people want to slap every option on their cars. There are no extra points for doing that. But you can lose more points if they are not in excellent shape. The plainer the car the less that can be taken off. ie. You can't take points off for bad chrome if there is no chrome.

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The AACA judges restored as well as unrestored vehicles. If it didn't then unrestored vehicles would not be permitted. But restored vehicles must be restored to how they orginally came from the factory. There are some exceptions for finish, tires that are not available (you can use the closest match) or other brands of headlights instead of the T-3s that came with some GMs. And for the addition of certain safety items so long as they look correct for the era or items for handicapped drivers to be able to drive them.

And all vehicles in classes that are judged are judged against the same "perfect" 400 point standard. And I have seen "original" cars that were good enough to win first place with no problem. There of course are not as many of them as there are restored cars, but they are out there.

I have heard some owners say they wish that there were separate classes for restored and un-restored cars. For that someone would have to decide what rules would apply for a car to be "unrestored". Just like the HPOF cars have to remain original up to a certain level. Not sure if they will ever go that far. But truthfully I doubt it. It is getting harder and harder to get judges to come out. There is no way that I can see to double the amount of classes. If they have trouble getting enough judges now, and they do, how can they get twice as many to show up? It is my understanding that is part of the reason they stopped having Deputy Chief Judges. To make those people available to be on regular teams.

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Hemiragtop, A bit of advice regarding rare stickers that I learned the hard way with a rare NOS PA state inspection sticker. If I read you correctly you are fortune to have one original dealer sticker / tag in your procession. In todays computer world having several copies of an exact reproduction made would be fairly inexpensive and no one would know the difference. Keep the original as a conversation piece.

When you go for your GN or the sticker starts showing some wear (they will eventually) by using a heat gun (on low) a sticker can be removed or swapped out in minutes. My Amphicar has a "before boating" sticker on the glove box that I change every few years with a reproduction sticker as the sun fades it out rather quickly.

Looking forward to seeing your car some day. My friend just sold his 66 Hemi hardtop. I rode in it several times and it was always a blast. Happy New Year to all, back to the shop.

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