Showing car with non-stock interior.

[Guest JTFORD]

I'm a new member of AACA and I have a 49 Ford convertible. The car has been restored before I purchased it. The interior of the car is not stock but everything else is. Can the car be shown at a meet, maybe the DPC class?

[Shop Rat]

Depends on how "non-stock" you are talking. Are you talking street-rod type non-stock or not that different from stock?

[Guest JTFORD]

By non-stock I mean the seats have tuck and roll vinyl upholstery and the floor mats are carpeted.

[Shop Rat]

Per the current AACA Judges Handbook the rules are as follows.

Upholstery (incorrect material) is a mandatory ten points. If the seat cushion-back is in less than perfect condition they can be deducted at up to five points each as a separate deduction from the incorrect material. So you start out with 400 point car before deductions are taken off. Uou are going to lose ten points on the tuck and roll. If those are the only points off you have even if there is another 400 point car you are within the ten point spread and will get a first Jr. award.

As for mats, under the catagory of carpet/floor materials/mats up to five points can be deducted for each. So if you have four incorrect mats you will lose twenty points. If the car has correct carpet/floor material and did not come from the factory with the mats, or they were not a factory option offered by the dealer, then take them out when the car is shown, or find correct mats.

Lots of people when they start out think they get exta points for options. They don't. Options can cost you dearly. The plainer the car the less there can be to deduct for.

Do you have a copy of the current judging sheet to see what the deductions are for each catagory?

[Guest JTFORD]

I thought DPC cars were not judged at all. I ment that the floor mat in the front seat is carpet not the standard rubber mat as from the factory. The rear is carpet also but the car had carpet from the factory. No, I do not have the rules for any of the classes. All I want to do is attend the Midwest meet and also display the car for what it is. Everything is stock except the seat cover material, door panels and floor covering.

[Shop Rat]

DPC is not judged. The cars are however "certified" as not having been modified. And you get a badge for the car when it is certified. When you get five badges you get a board to mount them on.

Another way to go is sign it up in it's class but ask that it be a "Do Not Judge". That way it is in with cars of it's era but won't be judged.

As far as the carpet goes, if it could have had carpet from the factory and the carpet that is there is correct in color and material there should not be a problem. Many people change the color of the cars and interiors to something else that was available if they don't like what was there. They obtain a firewall plate to match what they have changed.

Would you like a copy of the master sheet so that you can see how much the deductions can be?

[Guest JTFORD]

Yes, that would be nice to have.

[Guest]

Shop Rat ~ Talk about crazy deductions, as we were on the halogen headlight thread, what is fair and equitable about 10 points for an entirely incorrectly upholstered car, but 20 for 4 incorrect floormats that the poor schmoe forgot to take out before the show. Just a hypothetical question for the sake of discussion.

hvs

[Shop Rat]

Then send me your name and address and I will copy the one that I have and mail it to you. It is very interestng to look at.

Keep in mind, for non-mandatory deductions think of "perfect" as 0 deductions and the high number as missing, incorrect or so badly worn or damaged that it can not be used for it's intended purpose. Look at the others numbers between 1 to the next highest number as the gray area of how good or bad that component is.

There is no wiggle room on mandatory deductions. Others are marked so that you can only take off up to a maximum like bolts and clamps. Otherwise, a car could end up with a negative number.

Send your name and address to: billandsusanlinden@charter.net and I will put that form in the mail to you.

[Shop Rat]

Most judges/captains would see wrong floor mats (as in to keep the dirt off of the good carpet) and suggest the owner remove them. Have done it lots of times. The owners are grateful, in the rush of last minute primping they just got missed.

But if the owner refuses to remove them........

[Guest]

I agree Susan. At one time or another most of us have given an exhibitor a helping hand to save him/her from themselves.

hvs

[Shop Rat]

Thanks. I always try to be fair and to help people, especially when they are at their very first show and they are sweating bullets. You would think that some of them were entering their child in a Beautiful Baby contest they are so nervous.

[Guest]

Susan ~ A less than perfect or beautiful car can be improved before the next show. Unfortunately a baby can't

hvs

[Shop Rat]

Whew!!! Amen on that one.

[R W Burgess]

Howard, now you know there is no such thing as an ugly baby! I wish I could say the same for some cars I've seen in my lifetime, recent too(Aztec)! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[Jim Bollman]

I think my favorite experience helping a new to AACA judging car owner/restorer was a few years back when I was judging engines. An MG that was so fresh you could smell the fresh paint. The owner had worked half the night to finish it and then drove the rest of the night to get it to the show in time. He kept trying to tell me the things he didn't get finish in time to install. I finally had to tell him to be quiet because what I didn't know wouldn't hurt him.

[ex98thdrill]

....and I've been on the receiving end of the help and can't thank you enough. That prompted my dad and I to go to Judging school to learn more. Now when available, we try to return the favor to others.

[Guest AlK]

It's amazing to me that one rarely hears the other side of the story, so here it is. 1998, AACA S.E. regional, Montgomery Alabama. My 1955 Packard Patrician. The car was finished in 1997. Now I will readily admit that I will NEVER have a senior winner car unless I buy one already done, I just do not possess the patience. I bought the car with an already non-stock interior and after inquiring at SMS for the cost of the original material I said "no way" to price gouging, so I had the upholstery shop re-do the interior in brand new non-stock vinyl. I then spent over a week cleaning and polishing every thing I could. I felt I had a chance for a 3rd junior. When the awards were announced the next morning, nothing. I was dissappointed but that is the nature of the hobby we are in. So I sent for a copy of my judging sheet, to see what the judges thought needed to be done. Based on what I saw, I can guarantee my cars will never be judged by AACA again. All of the officials tout the high standard of AACA judging. They should go back to school. I stopped looking for other errors when I saw not one deduction for non-stock interior but the full deduction for cleanliness. So that tells me that after my spending the previous week and 3 hours that morning cleaning every piece of fabric in the car to the point that you could have eaten off the carpet, the judges could not tell the difference between authentic upholstery and clean upholstery. Now this might sound like sour grapes, but the car next to me gets a preservation award with stuffing coming out of the seams. Now one of my best friends who is an AACA judge, though not at that time, said "well mistakes happen" I'm sorry, that statement may be true elsewhere at local shows, but it should not be true at an AACA regional. You have a master judge on each team and if the individual judges do not know or are unsure of what is stock and what is not then they should ask. One other point to make on something else that was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Someone mentioned the drivers class(DRF). We are entering an era where us old guys are going the way of all flesh and what will be left is younger people that do not think the way we do. The drivers class, as I understood it was devised to entice people to get into the hobby and see the way things are done so they will know what they have to do on their car. That said, I think the worst thing that AACA could have done was to decide NOT to judge this class. If you don't judge it how is anyone going to know what they have to do to their car, and please don't say "that all they have to do is look at someone elses car". If you have a class in the book, judge the class. The arguement is that they would never want to get out of the drivers class. My come back to that would be, with all of the records that AACA keeps, they would know if a car has been judged once in the drivers class and that is all that should be allowed. After one judging in the drivers class you graduate to junior and senior judging. The current methodology is more conducive to staying in the drivers class that to getting out of it. If we are trying to entice the younger generation to get into the hobby then let's dazzle em brilliance, not baffle em with the solid waste material of the male gender of the species bovine cattle. The drivers class is a good start but it needs to be treated like the rest of the classes in AACA, not be the red-headed step child of the class structure. Now don't get me wrong, I am still a member of AACA and have no intention of quitting, but as you may have noticed I do have definite opinions and they don't always agree with the standard concensus.

[ronbarn]

ALK, You make decent points, but your understanding of the DPC is slightly askew. The intent is to have a class available for cars on which too much has been done to qualify for HPOF, but not sufficient restoration work to really be competitive in the judging classes. I have several cars that I use on tours. I do not ever plan to make them competitive, but do enjoy the opportunity to place them on the field. They are indeed "drivers".

[novaman]

The intention of the Drivers class is to entice other cars to attend. I have a car that I intend on showing in that class. I do not have the big $$$ to put into the car for a professional restoration. When I get done with the car it will be nice but, probably will never get a third Junior. Besides not having the prefect restoration, I plan to DRIVE the car on tours and other functions, so I don't have to drive my HPOF car (by the way that class isn't judged either, certification only). The Driver's class was meant for the cars that have some things wrong. Things like because you tour a lot with the car the paint isn't perfect, you might have add-on a/c for those tour on 100° days during the summer, or possibly radial tires for a more comfortable ride on those tours. If someone brings a piece of bovine fertilizer, the judging team that does the certification will not certify the car. The car should be about 80%+ correct and in good condition. Also, if you let the car deteriorate to that bovine fertilizer point they will not re-certify it either.

If it weren?t for that class there would be a lot of nice cars that would never get shown at a national meet. At the national meet in Ashboro, NC back in September, there were several members of my local region that had vehicles there. A motorscooter in class 5e, 3 cars in HOPF, cars in 18e, 20b, 20f, 26c, 27g 30a and 2 cars in DCP. The 2 cars in DCP didn?t stand a chance against the other cars in their class and are over all better cars than the one in 26c that got a 3rd Jr. Both cars have enough wrong with them that they can?t compete in the judged classes they belong in because the classes are so large, with near perfect cars.

While I was busy typing Ron got his post in.

[Guest AlK]

Ron

the points in your reply that i would like to stress is that #1 you, as a senior master judge have an insite into your cars that the majority of us do not possess. You say your cars would not make the grade, I will disagree. I have personally seen owners put down their owns cars, for what reason I can only guess, that in my opinion would take a best in show at any local show.

Case in point, I was with Ed Hermann (the actor) at Warren Ohio in 1999 for the centennial and he stated that his 193? shovel nose Packard was a decent driver but not a show car. My God this car had every piece on it painted and you could eat off of any flat surface of it. Just at a glance it was easily a 380 point car, if that is not a trophy winner then there is no such animal. #2 you can satisfy your desire to show your cars without the drivers class by putting it on the field as a "do not judge", as ws stated by an earlier post. My point is that the majority of new people(those folks that you ae trying to entice to join and show) do not know first off where their car would be in the scale of things unless they are judged. So my suggestion would be the first time a car is entered in the Drivers class, judge it, then the unknown is known.

[Guest AlK]

Novaman:

The key word in your reply is in the 4th sentence. The word is "probably".

You are just like most of the rest us, you don't know for sure. I have seen cars at AACA events that would not make a 3rd at a local show and see then walk off with an award. I have also seen cars that I would not have given a snowballs chance in Cuba take an award. Judging is a very tricky business, because it is, in some cases, so subjective. It should not be but it is. When the drivers class was first announced I was a region president in AACA. I was elated to see the class until it was announced that it would not be a judged class. I wrote letters and e-mails but to no avail. The collective minds were made up and did not want to be confused by facts. The bottom line for me was and always will be, IF IT'S A LEGITIMATE CLASS IN THE BOOKS OF AACA, J U D G E I T. Otherwise you don't have a judged event

you have a parking lot display.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Let me try and clarify the DPC class, this is from our judging manual: "In an effort to promote the <span style="font-weight: bold">showing and driving</span> of the antique vehicle the AACA Board of Directors in 2000 established the DP Category. This category is for non-modified vehicles 25 years or older that have not obtained a national first prize. This is a <span style="font-weight: bold">non-competitive</span> category and will not be judged....." There never has been any attempt or desire to use this class as a stepping stone to class judging. Some owners may well have a car that could earn awards in our judging system and some may feel later on that they want to work towards that goal. However, this class is for the member who wants to attend shows, drive his car and just have fun. It is a great addition to our system.

[Guest AlK]

Steve

your quote:

"there never has been any attempt or desire to use this class as a stepping stone to class judging". My question: From whose viewpoint? I can agree that no attempt has been made(AACA has made up its mind therefore no further ideas need be considered), however I have to dis-agree that there is no desire. I, as an AACA member 'desire' such a situation for this class. To my way of thinking it is the only logical thing to do with the class, why else have it???? I do not believe that I am alone, not based on the people that I have talked to(all AACA members and/or potential members). However those same folks also say "why bother? your not going to change their mind". based on the feedback that I have seen here and the feedback I got when I first broached this subject, I believe their statement is true. But I ask you and the other AACA officials what is accomplished with this class that could not be done without the class?

Without the class, anyone can enter their respective classes with what ever they have. They can show it, drive it, tour with it, enter it etc. etc. If they don't feel that they can be competitive and do not want to be embarrassed by not winning, put a "do not judge" sign on it.

With this class they can show it, drive it, tour with it, enter it etc. etc. etc. They get a medallion that says they participated. Without the class they get a dash plaque??? That says they participated. I fail to see any difference with or without this new class. If a (new to AACA) member enters this class for the first time and is judged, that tells him what he needs to do to his car, keep in mind he is a newbie unlike you or I. If he chooses not to go further, then he can keep entering the DPC until Model-t's are re-invented but no more judging would be done for that vehicle in that class. This person can now choose to go on and update the car and go into the judged arena, his/her choice.

Another Quote: "It is a great addition to our system". I can agree to that, but not altogether. As with anything, if it's bad fix it, if it's good make it better, since nothing in life is perfect we can always make it better and I think this could be made better. I may be in the minority, but that has never been a problem to me in the past especially since I am a direct descendent of Don Quixote.

[Steve Moskowitz]

I get your point and will make sure our Class Judging Committee reviews your comments. However, I'd like to address your comments in general. First of all, AACA is constantly refining and changing its judging system to meet the needs of the membership. I see more of this entire subject than most people, from my vantage point thru our office and thru the committee which I am a member of. The judging program is far from being static and unchangeable. Your Directors and committee members all show cars, judge cars and do this for the betterment of the club and us. However, I am not aware of any correspondence or discussion at roundtable meetings in regards to your points. I would also suggest a letter to Bo Croley, Vice-President of Class Judging would be appreciated.

"Why else have it"...again the class was designed to let people participate with <span style="font-weight: bold">drivers</span> that they did not want judged. This was an answer to a need the club saw from talking to owners who wanted to attend meets, show their cars and wanted some type of recognition other than a "Do Not Judge" sign on their car. The 2nd and 3rd Junior program was designed to allow some owners to "work their way up" to a National First Prize.

I am use to tilting at windmills myself so don't let that bother you at all! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest AlK]

Steve:

"However, I am not aware of any correspondence or discussion at roundtable meetings in regards to your points. I would also suggest a letter to Bo Croley, Vice-President of Class Judging".

You probably would not be aware. The effort I made was way back in 2000 when this subject first came up, and I believe John Meyer was head of judging then. I got the same kind of replys then that I have now, which is why I ceased. No one was willing to listen to an alternative viewpoint with an idea toward changing it. It seems (and this can be said of most large car clubs, not just AACA, I also belong to PAC) that unless the powers to be actually hear a lot of words on the subject they assume that everything is hunky-dory and don't seem to look at the oposite side of the coin.

[Steve Moskowitz]

At the risk of belaboring this, you have only recieved one reply, mine! As I stated, I will ask the committee to review this thread and would ask that you formally send a letter to Bo. If your idea is what the majority of our members want, it should find its way into our system. When you have 60,000 members you DO need to hear a lot of words from a lot of members in most circumstances. One person can make a difference, but you need to state your case to the committee for their review.

[Guest]

Steve ~ I cannot help but feel that ALK has something stuck in his craw that is going to be very difficult to dislodge.

hvs

[Guest imported_Brenda Shore]

Howard,

I reread this entire thread and agree - there is more to AIK's questions and concerns than meets the eye.

To AIK directly -

With respect to your first original issue about the judging of cars and the ability of the judges to recognize originality versus cleanliness I would like to reiterate what has been mentioned in this forum numerous times. The judges are a great group of people who volunteer to become a judge. Many of them have a lot of experience but like anything else, there are some that bring their own perspectives and issues to the judging team. We work very hard to continue training and by putting together a team of people, we also attempt to bring the correct combination of knowledge and objectivity to the field.

Alas - there are times we do not succeed. I know however that over a period of time and after showing your car a sufficient number of times, you will have an aggregated amount of very 'fair' judging. Please continue to bring your car(s), get to know the judges and help us learn more about your car and others like the ones you own.

Now to the second part of your original email regarding DPC. I was a DPC judge for all of 2004. In addition, I own a car that I show in DPC. As stated earlier, we do not point judge the cars in this class, but we still give them a lot of attention and do review the general categories for authenticity and commitment to the overall purpose of the class.

In addition, however, judges in this class have one distinct advantage over any of the other classes and that we also get to 'market' the club to new attendees and we get to interact with the owner. We spend a lot of time discussing the differences between DPC and point judging, we have been known to even recommend that some owners consider going into the point judging classes (some of the cars are absolutely fantastic - they owner just wants to 'get to know the process').

In other words, DPC is not just a show class. It is a fun and educational class that meets a need for all participants - new to the club, members with drivers, and fun cars that are worth being seen. Please enjoy the class for what it is and feel free to stop and chat with one of the DPC judges - it may be me! We welcome the chance to hear your feedback.

BTW - how about becoming a judge if you aren't one already? It's a lot of fun and a great way to share what you know with people who are always (for the most part) ready to learn more.

Take care - and happy holidays.

Brenda

[Terry Bond]

I was kinda stuck on one comment made "If you don't judge it how is anyone going to know what they have to do to their car...," there is a tendency to rely on the judging process to tell people how to restore their vehicles. Thats not the purpose for which the DPC or even any of the competitive judging classes were created. The owner needs to take on the responsibility to do the research, ensure the standard they desire to achieve is met, and then decide if they want to enter into a competitive situation. If there is interest in having a vehicle evaluated and some guidance provided about restoration or maintenance, best advice is to belong to an active AACA Region so that some more experienced judges might be called upon to offer some advice. I know in our region we have a lot of members who have restored vehicles and competitvely shown them who are more than willing to give their time and expertise to help another member. We've even had club judging events where we hold a mini AACA-style judging school to learn more about the process. A willingness to learn is all thats required, and its a whole lot more fun as a group. Brenda said it best - we could use all the help and knowledge available, so see you on the show-field!

May your snow be light, your sunshine bright and your Christmas holiday absolutely perfect!

Terry

[ex98thdrill]

You're right Terry. I have found that by doing the research, MOST of the time you can get the award that you are seeking. Of course, depending on the vehicle you have, there will be times where you've gotten your vehicle as good as you're going to get it because the parts that you need to make your vehicle nicer just aren't available. Of course another fresh set of eyes, can help you make a few minor adjustments to gain a few more points.

AlK:

If you really want the awards for your vehicle, go to judging school, go to some CJE's, read the judging section of AACA magazine and do the research on how your vehicle was built. If you take the time and do all four of those things, and you are willing to make the necessary corrections, YOU CAN WIN. The system does work, but you need to take the time to learn it. Of course there are things that I don't agree with either, but I've found that by doing the four things that I listed my dad and I have been able to leave the show field with:

1 - 2nd Junior Award.

3 - 1st Junior Awards.

2 - Senior Awards.

4 - Preservation Awards.

1 - 2nd AGNM award.

1 - 1st Junior AGNM award.

... We never hit the show field until 2001, and my dad and I did most of the work ourselves. It doesn't take a lot of money if you do it yourself. Remember that you can still make the corrections one at a time and KEEP TRYING until you get the money to get everything done.

...In the meantime, I would recommend that you go to judging school, apprenticeship, and CJE and DO SOME JUDGING. A good way for you would be to bring your car to the meet, enter it in the DPC class, and sign up to judge the class that your car would normally be in if it were in its' respective class. It gives you a chance to learn more about your car, and get a firsthand look at the criteria that the judges use to judge your car. Currently my dad and I are building a '42 Ford fire truck. At Hershey this past fall, I judged commercial trucks over one ton so that I can learn more about our Ford. By doing this, I hope to be able to take the knowledge that I gained, apply it in the shop so that my dad and I put a better product on the show field when the truck is done. There is nothing in the rules saying that you can't do things this way, and if you do, you have everything to gain.

....Almost every judge on that show field has been in your shoes, and you can learn a lot from this process. Several of us here on the forum have all been through this process as well, so you have a wealth of experience and information right here on this forum. You also have the AACA Library at your fingertips to request the information needed to assist you.

....Consider my thoughts and decide what goals that you want to attain with your vehicle. If you want to win the awards, my advice should get you there. If you don't choose to dedicate the time to follow the advice given, your dividend may be reflected based on your investment.

[Guest AlK]

First I apologize for taking so long to reply. However with the holidays I am sure every one of you can understand. This may be a bit lengthy and if the powers to be want this to be put into a thread of it?s own I have no objection. I hesitated going any further with this because I, also, do not wish to belabor the point and this is getting off the point of the poor man who started this thread in the first place, but let?s try this one last time and see where it flies and if the consensus of opinion is still the same we can end it before(in the words of my old pediatrician) this gets too ugly:

#1 Howard..

?I cannot help but feel that ALK has something stuck in his craw that is going to be very difficult to dislodge?.

Why would you think that Howard? Because I don?t roll over and cave in to the first words of disagreement to my way of looking at things. There is nothing stuck in my craw, as you put it, that can?t be dislodged with common sense.

Case in point: I sent in a suggestion 4 years ago at about the same time that the DPC was announced. The suggestion was that AACA consider holding at least one annual meeting in the future somewhere either near the Mississippi River, or west of it. From the response I got you would have thought that I had just suggested exhuming Mother Teresa?s body and having it burned at the stake as a witch. However along with that I was also given some good reasons, a few of which I disagreed with, but not having enough proof one way or the other I proceeded to verify on my own. So I took the AACA membership book and after a week of number crunching had to agree that the majority of the membership of AACA is within 400 miles or 8 hours of Philadelphia. My point is that I had an idea and someone disagreed with that idea and gave me valid points to convince me that my idea was not a practical one. If we ever get to meet one another you will quickly learn that I am not an individual who changes his view point simply because someone disagrees with my thoughts. I will change my mind when given common sense and verifiable reasons to do so. So far as the DPC is concerned that ain?t happened yet. The DPC is a good start, but in my humble opinion it needs to be improved and I am willing to make the effort if I can be convinced that the audience that I have to convince does not have their mind made up and does not want to be confused with other opinions.

#2 Terry:

?there is a tendency to rely on the judging process to tell people how to restore their vehicles?

Really?? Who or what else would you rely on? Maybe not how to restore but what needs improvement. Everyone has a different opinion and since it is the judges that make the final determination on the condition of a vehicle I would rather rely on their opinion than my own and/or a group of other members who are not judges.

?I know in our region we have a lot of members who have restored vehicles and competitively shown them who are more than willing to give their time and expertise to help another member. We've even had club judging events where we hold a mini AACA-style judging school to learn more about the process".

I find this to be a familiar trap in the upper echelons of most national clubs. They seem to think that because it exists in one area it exists in all areas. What about the poor folks up in the boondocks of Montana and Utah that do not have a region available to them, who do they rely on???? Or people in less remote places but there is no region close enough. Or lastly, people who have a region nearby but no one wants to participate in some thing like that(we had one of those here, so I am not just talking hypothetically).

#3 Brenda

?Alas - there are times we do not succeed. I know however that over a period of time and after showing your car a sufficient number of times, you will have an aggregated amount of very 'fair' judging. Please continue to bring your car(s), get to know the judges and help us learn more about your car and others like the ones you own.

Unfortunately, in the situation that I described you usually don?t get a second bite of the apple. I would submit, that because AACA judging is touted as being so thorough(if I understand correctly a person does not even get to judge until he/she has attended a prescribe number of judging schools/classes and be an apprentice), that under normal circumstances the ooooppppssss can be dismissed, but I am sorry I cannot accept an "oooppppssss" at the regional level and up. Not for what one has to pay to enter the event, travel to the event, stay a week or so etc. etc. etc. So after the first snafu, one is inclined to say ?fagettaboutit? I ain?t going back. I have seen it happen time and time again and at a lot lower level then an AACA regional event. When you are spending between $200 to $1000 to attend a regional or national event the last thing in the world that you want to hear is ?ooopppppssss the judge made a mistake? It?s to late at that point. I am assuming here that you have heard of the expression ?you don?t get a second chance to make a good first impression?.

? we have been known to even recommend that some owners consider going into the point judging classes (some of the cars are absolutely fantastic - the owner just wants to 'get to know the process').

#1 how many of them came back and entered their car in the point judging arena?

#2 How better to get to know the process than to be judged 1 time in the class(DPC) they are in.

#4 ex98thdrill:

Your comments are laudable and have much merit, however I am at a loss to understand where you or anyone else gets the impression that I am after awards, other than the fact that I entered one(1) AACA regional. I have more trophies that I need and my rec-room has no more room for any more. My whole argument has centered on two things with a common theme. I see two areas that need some improvement. One is judging, which can only happen with time and experience. And while I am a firm believer in getting trainees the experience that they need, I am not about to let them practice on my vehicle at a national event. The other(DPC) has a problem(IMHO) and I have suggested ways in which to fix it and have run into nothing but resistance in that area ever since I first had the temerity to suggest that there was something in AACA that was wrong.

From every ones responses here I have seen one common theme in all of them, a constant re-iteration of ?the DPC was not put in place as a judged class?. Talk about belaboring a point. I can read, I knew that before I even entered this chat. From my perspective, no one, it seems, is even interested in considering a modification of the class to maybe judging a first time entrant. The bottom line, as I see it, ?that?s the way it is, use it that way or not, we are not interested in changing it for any reason what so ever?

That, to me, folks is not the way to run an organization. Of course I will admit that the DPC class eventually came about, but after how many roadblocks?????

I see no need to belabor the point further as is, so with all this point-counter-point, will some one answer a simple question. What's wrong with changing the DPC class to provide for a 1st time entrant in an AACA event to be judged. I would hold my car excluded from that because I have already been judged once. I am talking about the guy who has never been to an AACA event before and enters for the 1st time in the DPC. If he enters in the judged arena, then that will accomplish the purpose.

[Guest]

I stand by my previous statement on this thread, but with one revision. I cannot help but feel after your last post that there are several things stuck in your craw. And I am not going to change my position any more than you will change yours.

hvs

[novaman]

The reason I said probably won't take a third is if someone is familiar (not necessarily an expert) with Chevy IIs judging that class my car would be in I'm history. I have a car that you can't get all the correct parts for plus I'm doing the car, it's my first attempt at a restoration.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Novaman,Nice job on my DFer button.Now whats this about having doubts in regard to your first restoration.NOVAMAN.....judging from your moniker YOU LOVE NOVAS.THATS half the battle,workin on a car you love.Do your research....take your time,sometimes it takes a couple,three times.Get PASSIONATE about what you are working on,TAKE that Nova all the way to the TOP of the AACA judging system.diz

[ex98thdrill]

Yes David, Dale is right. You've seen what my dad and I have done with the vehicles that we've restored in our own shop. We're not professionals, we don't have deep pockets, but we have the desire to have our vehicles as nice as we can get them.

You have one gift that a lot of first time vehicles owners don't have when it pertaints to restoration.... You have several judging credits to our resume', you know what the judges look for, you know people who have cars like yours that have taken top awards in AACA that can be used as a reference point (like past national president Joe Vicini) and you know where and how to get the documentation on how to get your vehicle correct (library, forum, etc.).

The only hurdles that I can see is the money, facilities, equipment, and tools needed to do the restoration. I'm quite positive that there have been people who have paid big money to have someone do a restoration on their car, they didn't know the judging process, and they left the show empty handed. My dad and I get by that hurdle by pooling our resources and doing the work ourselves Like that new mig welder that I bought him for Christmas this year, the electric winch that he got for car trailer for christmas three years ago, the new truck that I bought last year, etc. As a matter of fact this year him and my wife bought me all new cab class for the fire truck that's currently being restored.

Back onto the subject.... You know how to get your car right, you know what to look for, so as long as you can get past the other hurdles, YOU CAN DO IT!! We've done it several times with three different vehicles, and I'm sure that some of the hard to find parts aren't any harder to locate than what they are on some of our iron.

[ex98thdrill]

AlK,

Forgive my abruptness, but if you aren't going for any awards at all, then why are you bringing the issue up in the first place??

You can put your car in HPOF, DPC, or in the class that the other 1st Junior and Senior cars are entered in. Regardless of what class you are entered in, you will always have the option of "Do not judge." If you don't want to go through the hassle of not having the car judged, all you have to do is bring the car to the show, and don't bring a fire extinguisher. Without the fire extinguisher, your vehicle is still on the field, but it is automatically disqualified.

For the life of me, I can't understand why you would bring up an issue pertaining to awards if you're not going for awards. If you're not bringing your vehicle to a show to get the awards, bring it in, and don't sweat the interior.

I myself don't agree with all of the philosophies either, but if you don't get involved, try to learn the process, and work to get yourself in the position to make change, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

[Guest AlK]

Ex98thdrill:

I can forgive yours if you don't mind mine.

"For the life of me, I can't understand why you would bring up an issue pertaining to awards if you're not going for awards".

So according to that thought process, I can't have an opinion on space travel unless I am planning on becoming an astronaut

Bottom line: this point-counter-point has gone on long enough. I have explained my position and have heard from several people on it(both pro and con, you would be surprised at how many people lurk here but will not post). The posts that are here seem to convey the same common view, don't rock the boat, follow the process, it is best for all, DRINK THE KOOL-AID.

As H.S said I'm not going to change his mind and he is not going to change mine although mine is changeable if someone comes up with good sound common sense reasons to do so. However ex98, I will attempt at some point in time to get back maybe in an email to you and explain in depth the why's and the where-fores, but as yet NO - ONE has seen fit to answer the, rather simple question, I asked at the end of my last rather verbose post. All anyone seems to be interested in, is castigating me for having an opinion and God help me if that opinion is contrary to AACA common thought pattern.

I dance to the tune of my own drummer not some elses.

[Guest]

ALK ~ I agree with you that you have the right to dance to the tune of any drummer you wish. Just don't come into the joint with your own drummer and expect everyone to stop doing what they are doing and start dancing to your music.

I listened to your music with an open mind, but didn't care for what I was hearing. Obviously I am not alone in that opinion, so if no one else seems to be dancing to your tune, then just maybe we aren't the ones who are out of step.

hvs

[Guest AlK]

To one and all: If no one is going to answer the question I posed then do not waste everyones time by posting another counter-point. I, for one, will not respond to another counter-point, enough is enough. JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION, That is all I am looking for, whether anyone agrees with my thinking or not I could not care less.