Roundtable Issue - Ideas

[ex98thdrill]

Due to my work schedule, I will not be at any more roundtable discussions for the rest of this year. After looking at the last two issues of our magazine a thought has come to me.

1. Would it be possible to have Judging School online through microsoft Power Point or another comparable program?

2. Would it be possible for members to obtain CJE's online through microsoft Power Point or another comparable program as well?

THOUGHT #1:

Please understand that I am a very new judge, but the thought that has occurred that in the two judging schools that I have already been to, the material is exactly the same as what I observed last year. At the end of the school the test is the same, so why not take the school and the test online, and e-mail it when you're done?

THOUGHT #2:

We have a club that covers an entire country, and we have a vast pool of expertise in several areas of the different automobiles. Some people aren't able to make their knowledge known, others aren't able to make it to the meets due to work schedule and the location of the show from their home. Another example is that in judging school you may be sitting next to an individual who has a very vast amount of knowledge on a particular subject, but that person may be unwilling or unable to stand up and present their knowledge to others. For example, a man like Howard Scottland may be an expert on glass. With Howard living in Wyoming, he probably isn't going to make too many meets in Florida to where we can learn from him.

THOUGHT #3:

By having all of the CJE's available, it would give all of the judges, and car owners a better access to learn more about their vehicle. Another bonus could be that when the time comes for a National Meet, Region Event, etc., you could come in with a laptop computer and a Power Point projector and present the same material in a consistent manner.

The end result...

Better trained judges, a vast library to expand knowledge for CJE, and better cars on the show field.

- I may be way out of line, and If I've offended anyone, please accept my apologies. The thought occured to me as I was reading the judging section in the last two magazines. I am in no way shape or form trying to eliminate on site judging schools and CJE, but I am looking at the possibility that you might get more judges if they are able to do CJE's on their own time rather than take time out of preparing their vehicles because they need to go to CJE. You can have a vast variety of topics, and have an online test to see if they are grasping the information correctly.

In my case, I only make 2-3 national meets a year, and I'm only allowed credit for one CJE. At any given meet, there are more CJE's available than I've got the meets to go to. This would allow a person such as myself (a rookie judge) the opportunity to gain a better knowledge of the cars without being restricted on based on time and subjects.

What do you think?? Am I off in left field?

[Guest SalG (Sal Grenci)]

Ex98th, You make some real good points, let's see how long it will take for someone to jump on this because we have always done it the old way, so why change. My favorite one of these responces is that the annual meeting has always been In Philly, so why change.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Sal, ye of little faith! I have already emailed a copy of the thread to Bo Croley and Randy Rutherford. I did not have Fred's handy but just remembered it and will sent it to him as well. You obviously do not know this group of guys because the are not adverse to change. I am positive that they will review the above comments and bring them up during the next Judging Committee meeeting!

There are things that are being discussed and reviewed that at present the membership is unaware of...everything from future annual meeting locations, new AACA Ring program, AA on CD disks, lots of things!

[1937hd45]

Pat, Some of us are computer dummies, what is Power Point? Sal, The Annual Meeting is in Philadelphia because it has been there since day one and is stated so in the AACA bylaws. It's a two hour drive for me, we don't need a change.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Sal, hope all is well...

Please take a good look at the changes already in place within a short period of time. This AACA thing is nothing more, nothing less than a "club". Rather large club, but, a club of members with one theme: "Preservation of Motor Driven Vehicles, 1979 & earlier, as they left the factory". Unlike a football game (One side rooting for their team "only") we have to help fellow club members with at times, complexitites of old car restorations, maintenance, pass on experiences to our youth, I do not have to tell you this.

The torch has been passed, praise to the founders in 1935, the Presidents & Boards in between, and, we go onward. No organization could have, will have lasted so long with the "ME", "Why not ME" approach...change takes time to assure what all of us are doing within the hobby benefits the next generation, friend.

Regards, Peter J.

[Restorer32]

While I agree that the annual meeting , what with being in Philadelphia in February and all, can be a real pain in the a**, there is something to be said for tradition. After all, Hershey is in Hershey for no other reason than tradition. Should we change that as well?

[Guest]

Bob ~ Philadelphia is a 3 day drive from Cheyenne or an expensive plane ride. So is Hershey. I don't expect either of them to be rotated around the country for MY convenience. I still stand by what I said 15 years ago when I was president, in answer to the idea of moving the Annual Meeting around the country every year.

"It would make organizing and putting on the Annual Meeting amateur night every year!" The Philadelphia people <span style="font-weight: bold">KNOW</span> how to do it!!!

Just my long held opinion about something that works.

hvs

[ex98thdrill]

Oh no, please don't think of this as a change. My ideas are to SUPPLEMENT what we already have. My intentions are only to have a uniform CJE, uniform judging schools, and a broader range of knowledge shared. What we do now is fine in my eyes. But with everything online and/or on CD rom, it would allow more people the opportunity to explore and gain knowledge on their own without physically having to be at every single meet. The end result could in turn bring in more judges and broaden the knowledge of our members. In my case, I don't have the time to get off of work or the financial means to make every meet and learn more on CJE's.

Now to your other question.....Microsoft Power Point. Microsoft Power Point is nothing more than a computer generated program that presents slide shows. Instead of messing around with slide projectors, everything is digital and can be animated or timed to run itself. Microsoft Power Point usually comes when you buy the Microsoft Office Program. A Microsoft Power Point program is where you run a slide show on a computer and you run your presentation from the computer onto a screen by way of a power point projector. The end result is that you have the same slide shows without having to screw around with slides and a projector, and with the technology you can share the knowledge with others who are physically unable to be present for training through online use.

....Think of this, you want to conduct a CJE on interiors for a Lincoln Zephr. There is no one at the meet who is a subject matter expert on that subject. If we have Microsoft Power Point, and the slide show is compiled correctly, we can still do the CJE by someone other than a subject matter expert because Microsoft Power Point runs itself.

Steve, please don't take this the wrong way. Randy Rutherford and the crew really do a great job. I'm not trying to change anything, but only supplement what we already have to make things better. With some of these older cars, some of our subject matter experts are getting too old to participate. By recording the information, we are keeping the information alive.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Pat...

Interesting thought you have. My only thoughts are on first-hand experience with Power Point.

I have used it for presentations to customers, reports to my management, and, so on. Last year, I made 9 historical presentations on my home town of Mt. Penn's centennial. Many residents wanted a copy (VCR, CD). Found out quickly that if the recipient's computer is functional, however, of an older model, Power Point will not open if they do not have Office. Also, how much free space on their older computer. Granted, my 243 photo Power Point presentation is huge, but, they the user must have access.

Thoughts?

See you and Nelson next week...

Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[ex98thdrill]

Well Peter,

I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, or find fault with those responsible. This was just an idea that I came up with. I am no computer guru by any means, and I have a lot to learn about designing power point myself, but it is a good thing.

My first exposure with Power Point was back when I was teaching at West Point. At the time (2000) almost all of West Point's classroom instruction ran off of Power Point. It was great because we had the remote controls, and we taught the class by being able to walk around the classroom and not get "stuck" at the podium. By being able to walk around, as instructors it allowed us to be more interactive with the cadets which gave us a better product for instruction purposes.

We are fine with what we are doing now, but if this can help get the word out to more people and give the club a better product, than I think it will increase interest amd efficiency.

In my case I will probably never be able to go to an annual meeting. It isn't that the desire isn't there, but in my case I spent almost all of my vacation time off of work going to National Meets, and in the case of my father, he is an elected official who is in charge of the highway department. When the annual meeting takes place in February he spends a lot of time making sure that the roads are clear of snow and ice, so he really can't get away. It sure would be nice if some of those schools that take place at the meeting were online and available through microsoft power point. With the ease of burning CD's, it would allow the regional chapters the opportunity to bring some of this stuff back from these meetings to their own regions for education purposes as well.

..As for next week, preparations are under way to get the truck and the woodie ready for the AGNM. As it stands he'll be with the car, while I'll be with the truck. Are you still planning on coming over to the house next Sunday??

....I hope I'm not stirring a hornet's nest..

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Pat...

I think you have a very interesting concept. Power Point is a great tool, I must agree. As I mentioned above, my concern, based on my history presentation, is free-space in the hard drive & even if it is on a CD, one must still have Power Point programs loaded. (I may be wrong, but, one could download Power Point to open the CD file as a "read only". They would not be able to edit/insert comments, just read the CD data.) Let's see if any others have opinions.

You turned 36 at Hagerstwon??...darn. I could have bought you a fishbowl glass of spring water in lieu of beer.

Still on target to visit you folks on the way home Sunday.

Regards, Peter J.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Peter,

What I want to do with Powerpoints I want to share is I save the whole presantation as a web page in a folder by itself. This way I can burn a CD of the folder and anyone with a web browser can open it and look at it.

If you would like to see go to

http://users.ev1.net/~bstoneberg/2004National

Nice cars there and worth lookin at.

This is the slide show I did at the last Buick Nationals of all the award winners.

Also a way of sharing that we use worldwide is called WebX. You connect to their site and a moderator can share anything on his computer with you. We use it for training, or sales presentations. Yes, it costs money but not a lot if split between the group. You can also record it to play back later.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Bill, nice to hear from you...thanks for your input.

Your suggestions would be the route to go. My only concern is if a judge must "fill in the blanks" to questions, or, any other iotas. Not certain one can edit a document, Power Point in this case, if it is downloaded. I really don't know.

Regards, Peter J.

[ronbarn]

First point - No matter what you do on a computer, there will be some who cannot open it for lack of a proper up-dated computer and some because they have no computer at all! Fortunately more and more of our members are getting with the computer evolution. To suggest that since such a CJE cannot reach ALL judges is a sad excuse to deny the opportunity for the rest. I say it is a good idea.

Second point - This is one not mentioned above - Quality Control. CJE guidelines are brief and any specific CJE is essentially the product of a single individual instructor. I have been hearing comments that incorrect information has been given at some CJE sessions and that there are some marque particular information which is contradictory to AACA policy. IF there are productions of CJE Power Point or other suitable program presentations, there would be an opportunity to have reviews of the presentation by other knowledgeable individuals to assure quality of production and correctness of content, something not available at this time.

Third point - The CJE is a relatively new product of the Judging Program. It was initially intended to refresh some of the basics which many judges have forgotten - a big problem and if you don't believe this ask Randy about some of the grotesque errors he has seen since being in the administration area. Unfortunately, the CJE program has drifted into a bunch of "speciality" subjects and few people now attend the basics CJE. Believe me - this is a significant problem!! Could be that this computerized presentation could make a difference.

I place myself, with some reasonable experience in the judging program, on the side of serious consideration of this proposal.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Ron...I agree, as posted above, with Pat's concept, and, it should be studied.

Good points you made. I do not see anywhere where I suggested "..that since a CJE cannot reach All judges is a sad excuse to deny the opportunity for the rest". Just what I experienced should a Power Point user have to insert data, which, would obviously not be the case as I have been informed.

Power Point is a great tool. No doubt about it.

Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[novaman]

I like Pat's idea. Here are my views.

1) I would have the opportunity to do ALL the CJE classes there are online if I desire. Understanding that I only get one credit per year whether class is taken on or offline. This would make me better informed (I hope).

2) Sometimes it is hard to make the shows and some years it could end up being only Hershey and there are no CJE classes there. Plus if you are judging and showing a car you don?t have much time to take the CJE and have your car ready too.

3) If the information in the class needed to be changed it could be ASAP and an updated notice posted by the link to that classes stated when the class was updated.

4) The more appropriate format might be Macromedia Flash. You can have your slide show and/or movie, with a soundtrack. That track could easily be edited for each segment (like tracks on a record LP) instead of having to a ?whole? program. Plus you can make the program interactive. Like the photo with the Judged sticker on the headlight. You can ask ?Click where the appropriate place is to put the Judges sticker? then they would have to click on the windshield card to continue on in the program. Also you can make the test where they fill it out, and ask if they are doing this for their credit and if so it emails the test form to someone. If not for credit, it could simply tell them how they did and NOT email it.

5) Flash is very popular program and you can download the flash player for free. http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash

6) This could still be used at the meets with a projector and either run manually and talk along with it or let it play and pause it if there is a question.

7) I think this would be an excellent idea. Pat?s been thinking and apparently I?ve fallen into the ?that is the way we have done it group? because this is something I should have thought of and it never crossed my mind. Good going Pat!!

8) Last minute thought. Access to the CJE might ought to be limited to AACA members by placing the links in the "members area" along with the sign up for meets and judging.

[novaman]

Found a good site to demostrate the program. mini.com then click on "enter miniusa.com" in the lower right corner.

[D Binger]

Am I getting the wrong message here? Are you proposing that you get judging credits and not even attend a meet or a judging school? If that is the case why don't we just e-mail pictures of our car in and have it judged that way. That would be a lot easer that getting a vehicle to a meet.

Dan

[DaveBerg]

Well I guess I picked the wrong few days to go on a business trip! This is a really good subject to talk about. I think Ron Barnett really covered it quite well but I would like to touch on a few of the basics. I am limiting this to the CJE aspect and not the actual judging schools. Though I see no problem in putting some form of the judging school itself online. Possibly on a non-credit basis and used as a refresher for those who feel it would be helpful. That is a topic more for the Chairman Judges Training to get involved in. Looking though at CJE a few things have to kept in mind.

When we first started CJE the MAIN and ONLY purpose of it was to keep our judges thinking on the same page. The mistakes that were coming into administration were those that could have and should have been prevented before they happened. Yes our judging schools were passing out good information. The problem was that we couldnt get everyone to attend judging school. Some never went at all. You can be sure it was a good portion of those that felt they didnt need it were the ones creating the problems. Sooooooo with that in mind your judging committee at the time looked for answers. CJE was born as a way to get the basic information, ie asterisk items were a maximum deduction of 10 points, When were the three times you could take the maximum deduction, items with a circle were a mandatory deduction if applicable and so on. EVERY CJE instructor was given a list of these required items to discuss in their particular program. the topics presented by the instructors were in all but a few cases unimportant to us except that they were the bait to get you to attend the courses. What was important was that each and every instructor was to over and over again get every one on the same page with these basic issues and at the same time present an interesting program on the topic that drew you in in the first place. As time went on and more instructors joined the program and Chairman of CJE changed, VP's of Class Judging changed, the computer system became a reality, etc etc things got out of hand. No one was really at fault. It just evolved. The topics became the main focus, rather than the basics that we originally intended. NOW for the GOOD NEWS. Your judging committee under the leadership of VP Class Judging, Bo Croley and Assistant VP Class Judging Randy Rutherford has recognized the severity of this problem. Very soon all of the CJE instructors will again have this BASIC list and will incorporate it into their respective programs. Judging committee is also looking at ways to make certain CJE courses mandatory as well as at least one school per year for those who wish to judge on the field. The wheels of AACA at times may seem to roll slowly but be assured they do roll in the right direction.

Now to the topic at hand. Could CJE be put on the internet? I think so, at least some of the topics and CERTAINLY the BASICS. Granted some of the topics need the help of a live vehicle that exhibits certain problems, some so subtle that even a digital camera will not pick them up. Though I would think that at least some of the topics could be presented online. It is a wonderful suggestion actually and I am sure that your judging committee will look at all of the ways to make it work. While I personally consider myself "Computer Challenged" I know that we have capable people that could make it work. Thank you for the idea and for all of those who commented on it.

Remember that the creation of CJE was intended for one purpose and one purpose only. To make our judging system better by improving consistency and eliminating error. So many years back when I wrote the original CJE program I cant tell you how many times in a two year period I got half or three quarter ways done and just tore it up and threw it away and started over. With the brilliant assistance of Ron Barnett and the late Bob Laidlein it finally did get finished. I was proud of it then and am still proud of it today. It is not perfect but the wheels are moving everyday to make it so. Your thoughts and comments will help it achieve that goal.

[ronbarn]

Yes Dan, You are unfortunately getting the wrong impression. While eventually it may be possible to get some credit for taking a CJE online that is not the important part of this thread. The important part is that more education can be imparted WITH THE BASICS BEING EMPHASIZED!!! and with some QUALITY CONTROL over the information being presented. This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the negative concept of sending in photos for judging while not attending meets - that argument has been used so many times to oppose any use of computerization of any thing. That argument is just no longer valid. We have incorporated effective use of computers and now we are considering appropriate review of another potential approach. Let's approach it with an open mind to potential value. If it turns out to be a bogus idea, the Judging Committee can dismiss it - but if it has value, which I think it does, that let's continue to develop it in a logical procedure.

[novaman]

I should have in my last post clarified that the mini.com was to demonstrate some of the Flash program capabilities.

As for the getting credits for taking a CJE class online. I was opening it up as an idea. I would hope our Judging Committee would have the smarts (I think they do) to work it out in an appropriate manner, whether it be for or against it.

I, looking at the big picture of judging school and the CJE classes see where yes, you do need some ?classroom? time. The time to be able to ask questions and get answers on the spot. I can also see where the idea of judge?s being able to get credit for taking the CJE class online would make some people ?nervous? for the lack of a better word.

I was in Hagerstown for the Meet and went to the school, and took a CJE Class. The school was just about the same as any other school, looking at the same basic group of pictures. Yes some of them change year to year but just wait another couple of years and the missing ones will be back. I personally found it to be rather boring this year. At the end of the class we took ?the test? as the instructors GAVE us the answers. The CJE class I took was Chassis. I had taken it a couple of years ago with a different instructor but decided to try it again. I picked up a couple of new things. We spent all of maybe five minutes standing in front of a Model T, watching the instructor get down on one knee while explaining what he is looking at. Then pretending we were standing at the rear of the T, he gets back down on one knee explaining what he would be looking at from the rear. All of this basically repeating what was talked about while we sat as a group earlier. I been through some of these classes while listening to other judges fuss about it taking so long and they need to get their car cleaned before judging. That detracts from the class for the rest of the group.

I would feel better with someone taking the CJE online, taking a test and having to pass it before they can get credit for the class. Than someone that tags along for the 30 ?45 min classes, not paying any real attention to the class and gets a credit for it. At least online you would need to pay attention and learn it so you can pass the test at the end, unlike the judging school where you could (hopefully you don?t) sleep through the class and get the answers given to you. I would be looking for accountability that you truly took the class AND paid attention. That is one area I think the ?classroom? judges schooling is lacking. I just don?t have a good solution to offer so I?m not going to criticize something I can?t help fix.

Yes, not all classes can be done in an online version. I do know of several that could. Even if we didn?t get credit, at least we could take more classes and hopefully learn to be better judges the next time we are on the show field.

Just to make sure I?m clear on this, I would still see judges getting only 1 CJE per year as is the current system. In no way would I want to see that change because the program would become abused.

The whole idea behind this, (Pat tell me if I?m wrong) is to try to make it more convenient to get the schooling in. We are in a society now days that if you want people to do something you need to make it convenient. Hopefully, we could get more judges involved because they wouldn?t be rushed on show days.

[ex98thdrill]

David,

Yes you are right. You have hit the nail directly on the head. I'm not saying that Power Point is the only answer, but Power Point was the example that came to mind.

My thoughts are to allow people to take as many CJE's as they want to in a year, but a member can only get credit for one CJE per year just like we do now. For the tougher subjects that can't be done online, can be done in person at a meet. IF my concept is adopted, these CJE's aren't going to be done overnight, so it'll allow everyone the time to take them. I don't see a problem with having the CJE information available to non-members based on the fact that our goal is to preserve the automobile, not exclude someone because they don't have a card. If we open the doors a little bit, we will still gain better cars out there, and by doing this, it might gain some more members.

Ron (Ronbarn),

You are 100% right when you mention quality control. Although it was not written as such, the thought was implied. Earlier in this thread I used the term "uniform" which means the same. If the training material is compiled correctly, and the same training materials are presented the same way, every single time, regardless of who presents it, quality control should fall in to place by itself because every judge will have been trained the exact same way in every subject that is taught to them.

Dan (DBinger),

Yes Dan, with my concept I am implying that yes you can get credit for judging school and CJE without going to a meet. By looking at your profile, I see that you live in Wyoming.

- How close to your home is the nearest AACA judging school?

- Would you rather make a special trip just to attend judging school and CJE?

- Would you rather be able to take your judging school and CJE it in your own home on your own time?

- If you could get your judging school done online and you couldn't make it to a meet on time for judging school, would you still want to judge at a meet?

I believe most of us are educated enough to where we can read things on our own and take tests to prove profficiency rather than have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to have someone read the material to us. If you are in a situation like I am to where you're working full time, paying a mortgage, and trying to restore your cars, you are very limited in time and money to go to all of the meets and have the ability to gain the added knowledge.

********************************************************************************

** This idea came as a THOUGHT. I don't have the authority, nor the means to change this procedure. This thought came to my mind of how we can make a positive change and improvement in the current judging system. Perhaps this has been previously researched and dismissed, and perhaps it hasn't. Regardless of whether this concept grows or dies, you will always have to conduct judging schools and CJE's on site. The whole principle of this concept is to give the judges the maximum opportunity to enhance their knowledge without having to give them limited subjects, in a limited time, and then trying to cram everything into an already busy national meet. By trying to look at things from the perspective of the host region, this concept could also take some of the load off of the people who are already very busy.

NEVER AT ANY TIME HAS ANY INDICATION EVER BEEN MADE TO DO ONLINE CAR SHOWS.

....The nuttshell of this whole concept??

1. Enhance the car owner's knowledge so that they can put out the best quality restoration of their vehicles on our show fields.

2. Enhance the judge's knowledge to be able to recognize a quality restored vehicle.

3. Set the standard for all of the other car clubs to follow.

4. Preserve the hobby.

[novaman]

Just had a though when Pat mentioned Dan being in WY and how close the meets are. With the new enforcement of you have to take a judging school each year in order to judge at a meet, how can you do that if you are in the situation that the youger folks are in were we have to work and might not be able to get the Fri or Thurs. and Fri. off, needed to get to the show and be able to take the judging school on Fri. I know this isn't the CJE classes we are talking about but still I think they go hand in hand.

Pat, the only reason I said about putting in the members area is to keep "outsider" from making it into a "spam" problem for whoever got the emails for the credits. Easy way of cutting the numbers down. With the programs it would be easy to make a "member" and "non-member" version for the non-member version you just leave out the sections where it would gather their personal membership infromation. The member version would gather it to be email if they are taking it for credit. These details can be worked out if they decide to try it.

[Steve Moskowitz]

<span style="font-weight: bold">Great Thread!</span> You folks have added some more fodder for the Judging Committee to review. Bo Croley and Randy Rutherford along with their team are looking very hard at this thread. Believe me, they have an open mind and appreciate your input. I hope <span style="font-weight: bold">no one</span> feels they cannot contact our Directors personally when they have an idea. Do not wait for roundtables! In spite of what some people think, our Directors are willing to change, alter, start, etc. anything if it is in the best interests of our members. Believe it or not, change is not a "dirty" word at AACA. That being said, we have already found out the damage that can be caused by rushing into something new without be prepared (this is not in reference to CJE!).

[ex98thdrill]

Thanks for the compliment Steve. Due to my work requirements, I'm not involved in a chapter (and the guys at GVACS are a great bunch too). My vacation time gets used up doing the national meets to where I don't have the time left for the regional stuff. Due to my limited exposure in between national events, I don't discuss AACA issues that much other than the time that I spend on the forum. My thoughts were rather than take the time of the national directors who are already busy to begin with, I'd start the thread and see what kind of feedback came back off of it. As it turns out, I might have come up with a good thing. It's nice to know from my standpoint that I've raised a few eyebrows and done so not in a manner to upset anyone.

David,

Back on the CJE's, I believe it would be nice to have the information available for non members from the standpoint being that a car owner could access this web page and obtain vital information to aid in the authenticity of their restoration. At this point we aren't even at the crawl stage of this issue, so if we choose to go to the run stage, we have a long ways to go before we need to argue about this.

...oh and thanks for the newsletter. I got it yesterday and I noticed a certain woodpile with wheels at the top of it.

[Jim Bollman]

Returning from Buffalo (I live about 100 miles away so made 2 round trips) with time to think on the drive I thought to myself, self, Judging School could and should be online. Luckily I decided to catch up on back postings (was off line for a while and am still catching up) before making the suggestion.

I was glad to find a lengthy discussion already underway. I hope the idea goes forward. Our company has went to online training for all there mandatory classes. We complain about the training but at least we can do it on our schedule and we don't sit through 1 or 2 hours of lectures. It also allows us to test out if we think we already know the material and skip right to the test.

I would suggest using something other than PowerPoint for the final form. There are numerous ways to do online presentations that don't require buying and learning expensive software. The simplest is Adobe PDF format. Most any presentation can be written out in PDF including PowerPoint and the readers are free to download if you don't have it. It also runs all operating systems.

Just a thought and lets keep this idea alive.

[novaman]

Jim, what program does your company use for it's online training? I had suggested Flash as it is easy to edit portions, add sound (narative tracks) and you can take the test online and submit it online. There is a free download from Macromedia for a Flash player so it wouldn't cost anyone to get the program needed if they don't already have it. With the .PDF wouldn't you have to print the test and mail it?

[Jim Bollman]

I'm not sure what they use at work but it is pretty fussy on browser setup. If they used PDF you could separate the class work from the test and just do a simple CGI script for the test. There are lots of ways to do it online, if the process goes forward. I just wanted to point out that there are free solutions and if done right it will be cross platform and dial-up friendly. I don't think we need audio and video to replace what is currently used. Just text and photos should be enough and that can be done with straight html and cgi scripts.

Jim...

[Janet Ricketts]

Pat,

This is one of the best threads I have enjoyed in a long time. I feel that making some of the CJE programs available online along with the judging school has a lot of merit. I believe my fellow board members and the judging committee will look at this recommendation in a positive manner.

I agree with Ron's comments about getting back to the basics in judging. All you have to do is to talk to Bo Croley, VP Class Judging, and you will find that he echoes those remarks wholeheartedly.

Janet R.

[ex98thdrill]

Thank you Janet. It was good seeing you in Buffalo Saturday. As I've said before, the thought occurred to me after reading some of the judging segments in the last few issues of our magazine.

When I spoke with Steve Moskowitz on Saturday night, I had mentioned that perhaps an option could exist where all of the CJE sessions planned for the Annual Meeting could be developed in a Power Point format (or suitable alternative) and then after the Annual Meeting is over, you could post those CJE's on the web and begin building a library year after year. I had explained to Steve that I hope that I hadn't touched a nerve with anyone and Steve assured me that I hadn't, and the thought was being seriously considered. Steve did caution me that before anything was implemented, that the research would be done so that if or when it would be implemented, that all of the bugs would be worked out so that it didn't turn out like the vintage hot rod class did. Steve also had said that there will have to be some time taken to make sure that the AACA club software can handle the concept (did I misinterpret this Steve?)

At this point, time will tell as to what happens. This is currently only a concept and not an attempt to put fault with our current practices. It'll be interesting to see how this progresses.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Yep, you heard me right!

Just to let everyone know, this thread is being reviewed further by all the appropriate committees along with ideas for judging schools at different times and locations. Our Vice-President of Class Judging, Bo Croley just announced all of this to the National Judging Committee. There is a lot going on now and don't lose faith if you do not have an answer right away..."No wine before its time!" <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[novaman]

Glad to hear things are moving now. (The committees are looking it). I understand that this is something that may take some time to evolve but, it worth the time so it is done right.

[novaman]

Just bringing it to the top again so new DFers might view it in referance to the judge's newsletter question.

[Guest AlK]

Novaman: Thanks, I usually don't go back a year to see what has been discussed and I have just now gotten around to viewing some of the other threads beside Packard which is my home base.

I am going to throw my $.02 in here. I?m a masochist anyway so what?s a little more pain. I would like to point out that comments like the two in response to Sals comments are why some people have a total dislike for AACA. People make off the wall comments to an otherwise legitimate suggestion and then they wonder why people get upset. This is mild compared to some of the comments I have heard AACA members make to non-AACA members and then listen to the AACA member wonder why that person did not join the club.

Sals comment:

My favorite one of these responses is that the annual meeting has always been In Philly, so why change.

-- This is an actual response, I heard this myself when I ?asked?, not ?proposed? the same question 5 years ago. Some of the responses I got back were downright ludicrous. From these you would have thought I was the anti-Christ. However as I stated in another thread a while back I did get some valid reasons.

Restorer32s comment:

?Hershey is in Hershey for no other reason than tradition. Should we change that as well??

-- now there is a winner. I re-read the thread and no one said anything about changing Hershey, so why come back with a overly blown up comment, instead of something that would be helpful to answering the question. Hershey is Hershey; if it were held anywhere else it could not be called Hershey now could it.

D.Bingers comment:

If that is the case why don't we just e-mail pictures of our car in and have it judged that way. That would be a lot easer that getting a vehicle to a meet.

-- another well thought out response. Come on guys we are all supposed to be adults here and I realize that sometimes sarcasm is called for, but not when a legitimate question, concern and/or proposal is made. This is one of the reasons that you have people out there whose hackles get bent out of shape when you mention joining AACA. And that is not a comment made out of the clear blue just to support my statements. I made that suggestion to a club here locally and nearly got stoned for my efforts.

CASE IN POINT:

Howard Scotland?s comment:

"It would make organizing and putting on the Annual Meeting amateur night every year!" The Philadelphia people KNOW how to do it!!!

-- That is one reason. Another reason that is just as good is the one that John Meyer gave me over 5 years ago when I proposed the very same question, OVER 80% OF THE CLUB MEMBERSHIP IS WITHIN 8 HOURS OF PHILADELPHIA. With all of the regions around the country, I did not believe him so I went to the membership book and confirmed that myself. So with those kinds of numbers it makes sense to have the annual meeting in Philadelphia. Nowhere else in the northeast would make sense, because that would be changing to change and for no other reason. Years from now with changing population demographics that change may make sense but we won?t be around if it happens.

The original poster of this thread made some legitimate points that according to some of the responders will be taken into consideration. This, IMHO, is great, because like it or not the computer age is here and is not going away. Wait 25 years when these computer equipped pile of wires and logic boards get to be antiques. Try to determine if the computer that is in the car is the original one or a clone that is non-standard.

The point I am trying to make here is that if you have a legitimate question and/or concern proposed, try to answer it without blowing it out of proportion. People who are not AACA members lurk about in cyberspace and if all they see are snide comebacks, they are going to less likely to join in the conversation or the club.

[1937hd45]

The AACA Annual Meeting is in Philadelphia because the club was founded there,if you read the club bylaws it is stated that the Annual Meeting will be held in Philadelphia. You'll have to lobby the board to get it changed to a city of your chosing. Hershey, that is like the Indy 500 we like them both in the places that started them.

[Steve Moskowitz]

With 62,000 members you will get all sorts of comments and thoughts. We are not always a homogenous group and to blanket AACA with a position based upon a comment or two from our membership is unfortunate. We do have members that strongly support staying in Philly as well as members who want us in Orlando, Vegas, etc.

The fact is, the Board of Directors, looked at a proposal to move the Annual Meeting this year during the Board meeting in Metropolis, Ill. They are continuing to look at the viability of such a move. We also have some Directors that are highly in favor of this idea. However, there are many logistical concerns that the average member would not have any idea about. Our board will continue to review the logic, cost and contractural obligations that go into the decision making process for a future change.

The internet is a great communication device but unfortunately we never know whether comments are made light hearted, sarcastically, etc. It certainly is our hope that members speaking out in this forum due so with a certain amount of diplomacy. ALK, your final comments are right on and are appreciated. We all should be here to help each other and to have respect for each others opinions.

[R W Burgess]

Steve, I have tested this theory of the Annual Meeting being held somewhere for about three years now. My thinking was trying to help with the travel time for those members out West. I'd love to see it in Vegas, never been there. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> A great excuse, in my mind. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think you'll see more changes happening faster in this organization as younger people become Directors and bring in new ideas and visions. Wayne

[Restorer32]

My comment about "Hershey being Hershey" was not made in jest, not in the least. I strongly feel that there is at least some VALUE IN TRADITION and that tradition should be considered in any decision making process. I also agree that schleping into downtown Philly can be a chore. I know that in this modern world CONVENIENCE is often valued far higher than TRADITION. It seems to me though that those organizations that persevere and flourish over time value their traditions. I'm not a Harley owner but always find it interesting that so many Harley owners travel to Sturgis every year. Is there anything that draws them there except tradition? It certainly isn't convenience. I talk to many people every year who continue the annual trek to Philly or Hershey for little or no other reason than tradition. Just my humble opinion.

[Shop Rat]

I agree to an extent on the tradition of certain activities. I also think that there might be a reliance on the local community for support of an event. When we go to New Bern, N.C. for their AACA show, the shops along the street where the cars are, open more hours for the people at the show. And businesses open their parking lots to the people coming to see the cars and welcome them at no charge. They also provide lots for classes of cars when they run out of room on the streets for them. So there is the over-all hospitality of an area to think about.

As far as Sturgis goes, it is out in the boondocks. No one bothers them and if you have never seen videos of some of the stuff that goes on there, most places would not tolerate it.

[ex98thdrill]

Ladies and Gentleman,

I began this thread eleven months (11) ago. I just thought it would be good to review this whole concept and see how the board has progressed with this.

Ten short days ago, I attended judging school in Greensburg. Fred Young made the presentation and I must say that it was the most improved judging school that I have seen since I became a judge (2003). The judging school was done off of a laptop computer using a powerpoint program. The pictures were in order, the right side up, not backwards and there were no jam-ups. The material presented was up to date, and very informative.

At this time I would like to thank the board for their vast improvements, and to remind all of us that the board does in fact listen, and never be afraid to offer suggestions.

Although the concept is not completely adopted, I would say that we are in the crawl stage, and may one day get into the walk stage.

Fred, Randy, Bo, Steve and to the others I don't know, thank you for your time and efforts to improve things.