NOS vs. NORS: Definition?

[Guest 70 Electra]

Is it just me, or have the rest of you seen an increase in the abuse of the descriptive term "NOS"?<P>I've only been involved in the old car hobby for about 25 years---which, compared to many of you, makes me a johnny-come-lately. However, in the last few years I've seen more apparent misunderstanding about the term "NOS" than ever. Seems that the biggest abusers of the term are sellers. (Not surprisingly, since they have the most to gain!).<BR> <BR>It seems that to many people, ANY brand new part in a box is "NOS", regardless of who made the part, or how old it is. There's a professional vendor on eBay, for example, that regularly describes his brand new aftermarket motor mounts as "NOS".<P>To convince myself that I'm not the one that's "nuts", and to possibly help the newer hobbyists, can I get a consensus on the TRUE definition of NOS??? Here's the definitions I've used for 25 years:<P>**NOS: New Old Stock. A brand new, unused part made by the vehicle's original manufacturer. In the case of a Buick, this means a GM-badged part (whether it be United-Delco, AC, Buick, Harrision, etc.) that has a GM part number on the box. <P>In spite of being brand new and unused, a NOS part could be in ANY condition, due to shelf wear, age or weather damage, poor original quality, or other circumstances. (Buyer beware!)<P>NOS is not an aftermarket replacement(TRW, NAPA, Walker, Moog) part, no matter how similar the replacement is. <P>NOS is not a "really really nice" used part that looks "as good as new".<P>NOS is not a new car "takeoff".<P>NOS is not a reproduction part, not matter how faithful the reproduction is. <P>**NORS: New Old Replacement Stock. A brand new unused part made by (or badged as) someone other than the vehicle's original manufacturer. For a Buick, this means a non-GM part. Key word here is "replacement". Old merchandise from the attic of the local auto parts store (such as NAPA, TRW, Fram, etc.) can be considered NORS.<P>I do not make any value judgements about the quality of the NORS parts. In some instances, the replacement part may be of higher quality than the original GM part.<P>I also conceed that some original GM parts were actually made by companies like Arvin, Bendix, TRW. In a few rare cases, the "replacement" brand part may actually be indentical to the original GM part. However, unless it's clearly marked or packaged as a GM part, with the GM name and part number on the box, it is still NORS in my mind. (Now things DO get fuzzy if it's not in a box, but usually genuine GM parts bear a marking to identify them, whereas the replacement over-the-counter part doesn't.)<P>**Reproduction. While I'm venting my spleen, a few words about reproduction parts. At the risk of stating the obvious, a reproduction part is a newly made part that attempts to duplicate an original.<BR>The term "reproduction" has no bearing on the quality or authenticity of the part. A good repro may be better than the original, however, it is still not NOS, and anyone that represents it as such is dishonest.<P><BR>_________________________________________<P>Just a final word about the "old" part of the NOS or NORS terms. Although often abused, the intention of the "old stock" term is to describe a part of older manufacture, and most often a discontinued "obsolete" part. The use of NOS to describe parts of recent manufacture (i.e. those still available from GM) is a very gray area. To me, these parts are "new GM", and not NOS. However, I can't get too hot under the collar in this area, since I don't believe there's universal agreement on this. <P>I think if a newly made GM part is exactly like the original, no one is going to get there shorts in a knot. However, when the newly made GM part is a FUNCTIONAL replacement only, and does not physically resemble the original, I think using the term NOS is inappropriate and misleading. A great example of this is a GM ignition coil. The latest replacements are made in Mexico, and look more like a PEP Boys part than the good old Delco-Remy parts of 20-40 years ago!<P>So what do you folks think? Am I off base? Am I right on? There's a lot of knowledge and experience out there, and I'd like to hear from you.

[Guest John Chapman]

Greg,<P>I think you're right on the money. The only addition that I'd make is that to be accurately considered 'NOS', the production date should coincide with the production dates of the car on which they are used. <P>'NORS' components, in my mind, should also be source and date correct, but obiously with a longer window. Case in point: I have a 1987 Mazda pickup and that model was produced until 1994 for the US market and until 1998 for the AustralAisa, African and South American markets. I can go to the local Mazda dealer and purchase exactly identical parts for the truck. While I'd not consider these parts 'NOS' they are certainly 'NORS' or even current stock, based on package/moulding dates.<P>I don't know if we should even open the issue of 'restored' vs. 'refurbished' vs. 'restification'..... Should I have a nickel for every classic ad I've read that purported to be 'completely restored' to find that meant new, wrong color paint, creative interpretation of the interior fabric and four new shocks....<P>Cheers,<BR>JMC

[Guest]

OK, let's throw another angle into this discussion!<P>The 1940 Special (like mine) was sold new with either a Carter or Stromberg carburetor. Both are considered "correct" applications for the new vehicle. If I decide to replace my Carter with the correct Stromberg AAV-16, have I "modified" the vehicle from "original"???<P>Does a component which is superseded by that supplied by another manufacturer for Buick assembly during the course of the model year become disqualified as NOS?<P>Randy<BR>BCA#9592

[Guest John Chapman]

Randy,<P>This is just my thoughts.... If it's a running change, then to be absolutely correct, your car should have the equipment that would have been correct for its date of manufacuture. If your car was assembled during the approximate time of the running change, then you can probably make a case for having it either way. <P>Don't forget the various differences based on where the assembly was done, either (e.g. types of fasteners, chassis/body paint types and locations and miscellaneous accessories.<P>Man, this could become a religeon!<P>JMC

[brad54]

How about this defination of NOS: Not Originally Satisfactory. As in, the parts stayed on a shelf for 40 years because they didn't fit to begin with.<BR>What most people don't realize is that as cars were being built, they were meant to appear perfect when they rolled off the line. If a body panel had a ding in it, or the stamping wasn't dead on, then they went into a pile, were boxed and sent to authorized service dealers to be used as replacement parts, where body work could be done to make them right. If the part didn't fit at the dealership, it was stacked in the corner or thrown back in a box and set back on the shelf, and another was pulled and put on the car. <BR>By the end of the model year, a lot of the tooling was wearing out but there was no justification for making new expensive tooling. I've seen many NOS pieces of trim that are wavy or wrinkled in certain areas because the stamping die was worn out. It's really neat when you see an "inferior" original piece next to a NOS piece, and the original looks better!<BR>The worst is NOS electrical equipment.<P>On NORS, I've heard that described as "New Old Removed Stock," meaning the part was put on a car, removed, but the original box was disgarded. The hobby standard (at least on the side of the guys actually doing the resto) is NOS comes in a factory OE box. That box seems to be the key. I've heard a lot of guys say they "paid $800 for a factory box" usually to have a part inside it that needs to be restored. Which usually costs the same as restoring the part that's already on the car!<BR>If it's a service part from an outside supplier (like a TRW ball joint,) it's just "old." Really. I have gone to the mom&pop parts house down the road and have bought a throw out bearing, wheel bearings, wheel cylinders and brake shoes for my '54 that had an inch of dust on the boxes--they'd all been there for 20-plus years. Are they NOS, NORS, etc? No, they're just "old." The advantage is that those parts will usually fit because they were built during the period for cars that were still current. Just like if you bought a starter or part from Pep Boys for a Dodge Dakota. You'd expect it would bolt right on.<BR>How about "NSOS"--Never Sold Old Stock?<BR>I realize a lot of people won't be pleased with my outlook on NOS parts, but it's been influenced by conversations with judges, enthusiasts, and some of the best restorers out there.<BR>Go ahead and snatch up all that expensive NOS stuff--that means there's more cheap stuff available for me.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Glad to see some responses.<P>"Brad 54": <BR>I believe using NORS to describe "new old removed stock" is inappropriate. Any vendor using this term is guilty of improper terminology. <P>Sounds like you've had some bad experiences with NOS parts. I agree that there is a lot of junk out there that is, nonetheless, truly brand-new old stock. The point of my inquiry was to seek agreement or dissent on the definition of NOS. The quality of the NOS is another can of worms!<P>While I agree that it's nice when NOS comes in a box, I don't think anyone considers it a requirement, or part of the definition. More specifically, if the box is missing, a NOS part is still NOS because the manufacturer and the time period it was made in have not been changed. For that matter, many NOS items never came in box to begin with!

[Guest]

NORS can also be applied to manufactures parts also,ie. GM or Ford. example I wanted to get a window regulator handle for my 67 Grand Prix, part is still listed and one was ordered. Comes in blue and white GM box open the box and guess what? It's a nice "replacement" part but not identicle to original. Have also seen other parts like this.

[BuickNut]

You can wind up going far enough, if your picky enough , that there are no actual such things as NOS.......however most of what has been said here I do agree with...though for my purposes, since I have mostly drivers, or just get into local shows at most..is that if it has Delco, AC, GM, etc on it.....it's NOS as long as its never been on a car. Just make sure if you have particular NOS/showcar requirements - you get pics of the parts including the date codes, etc.......

[brad54]

I've never had any bad experiances with NOS parts--I don't buy them. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just don't have show car.<BR>I've met a ton of guys who pay the big bucks for the parts, only to be amazed when the fender doesn't bolt up because it was spot welded wrong from the factory.<BR>I like the NORS for "New Old Replacement Stock." I think that's a very fair and accurate defination of an old replacement part--no surprises.<BR>I think it's the industry standard, or at least the perception, that to be truely New Old Stock, it's gotta have the right dates, been manufactured when the car was still current, and comes in an original old box.<BR>For instance, Mopar Performance was selling freshly minted 727 Torque Flite trans cases, and they were "New." They found two containers of them in a warehouse recently, manufactured 3 decades ago, and those are NOS. A new trim ring for a Rallye wheel is still available from them. It's New (and faithfull to the orignal). One in a 30 year old box would be NOS.<BR>A door glass made yesterday, date coded, and sold by GM Restoration Parts wouldn't be NOS.<BR>Now, if you find a properly dated door glass from a vendor, and it doesn't have a box, how do you know when it was made? Any repro parts, taken out of a box, could easily be sold as "NOS--the box was just too damaged." Then the guy who pays that big money because he had to have NOS is getting rooked because it's a currently available, correct part that he paid an unnecessary premium for.<BR>Mustang wheels are a great example: you can get them brand new, dated coded and everything. And they're indistinguishable from the original. I literally know a guy who paid $800 for a Ralley wheel in a box. And the wheel was rusty and needed to be replated and repainted. A new repro wheel would have cost him about $225, date codes and all. It's the box.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Brad54,<BR>All good points! Regarding the potential rip-off of selling repro as NOS: It doesn't even have to be without a box---I've seen guys sell NOS, ask the buyer to let 'em keep the box, then use it for repro stuff!<P>Having said that, I believe that 99.9% of all the repro stuff I've ever seen is fairly easy to distinguish from the original, if you know what you're looking for. The exception is a small amount of the very high dollar Corvette repro stuff.