Tire Question for 1959 and 1960 Buick Owners

[Centurion]

Many of you are aware that I experienced steel belt separation problems with the radial wide whitewall tires installed on my 1959 Buick. The problem necessitated replacement of all four tires on the return trip from last summer's Buick Centennial in Flint. Coker Tire has now given me a $400 credit toward replacement of the troubled radials.

As I have talked with other BCA members and listened to input on this issue, I am currently inclined to equip my '59 with original style bias ply tires. Other issues aside, an authentic appearance and tire profile are important to me. I understand that Coker offers bias ply tires based on the original molds for brands like B.F. Goodrich and U.S. Royal.

This Forum has attracted several members with fine original or restored 1959 and 1960 Buicks, and I know that some of you have original tires or spare tires.

I am interested in any of the following information:

a) Original tire manufacturer for the tires your car was equipped with from the factory.

Whitewall width for your original tires. I understand that the rim may cover a portion of the whitewall on these tires, so please measure from the edge of the rim.

c) Any counsel you can provide me based on your own experience and tire replacement decisions.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

[Guest Tom]

Brian,

I don't have any of the original tires on my car anymore, but I bought the BF Goodrich Silvertown's from Coker a couple years back. Size is 7.60 X 15. The whitewall when mounted neasures 2 1/4 inches from the edge of the wheel. I believe it is advertised as a 2 1/2 inch white wall. From what I have been told, anything between 2 1/4 and 2 3/4 inches is correct.

[Guest JL59]

I have an original 59 buick Invicta sedan with 40,000 original miles. This has been in my family since new. It has an original spare in it.

It is a US Royal Safety 8 4 ply tire. It is a 7.60 - 15.

The original whitewall width in two and a sixteenth inches from the outside of the rim. This is an exact measurement.

As far as testimonials for tires, I have four Firestone 721 225 75R15 steel belted radials for my buick. It is the closest radial I have found to the exact whitewall width. It is one and three eights inches. I am sure there are more makes now. They have been good tires for me and the whitewall looks pretty good, compared to the original.

I understand Firestone doesn't make the 721 anymmore, but I hear they still have warehouses with them in, so they are still available.

Jeff Lundberg

1959 buick Invicta two door hardtop (currently for sale)

1959 buick Invicta four door sedan

1959 buick Invicta convertible (currently under restoration)

[Guest brh]

I know this question was for 59 and 60 owners but I just wanted to give you some input. When I made the decision to put radials on my 65 it was strickly a traction issue. I drive rain or shine to and from meets. I was well aware of the point deduction. Last summer I had some idiot hit the brakes hard at 60 mph (last meet of the season). When I slammed on my brakes I had no trouble stopping fast enough to avoid an accident. I will always run radials. Just my 2 cents

[Centurion]

I appreciate all of the responses received to date. Tom and Jeff, I had hoped that you would reply, and I appreciate the information.

Bruce, I understand your point with respect to the radials, and I had always assumed that I would run radials also. My car is unlikely ever to be a contender in a formal juding situation, and my motivation for looking at the bias ply tires has nothing to do with avoiding the points deduction for radial tires. What has gotten my attention are the recent articles and statements regarding possible safety problems arising from the use of radial tires on the old steel rims that were not designed for them. My principal focus with the '59 will be to participate in various tours, and the safety of my family is my highest priority. There are arguments that can be made both ways on the safety issue, and this is part of what I am trying to weigh in making my tire decision. I am lacking good, objective data on the safety issue, but need to apply my credit from Coker Tire by about March 15. As you can see, I am still undecided on the radial vs. bias ply approach. I appreciate your comments, and I hope that those who have fitted their '59 and '60 Buicks with bias ply tires will offer some comments about the handling and driveability of the cars. Friends of mine with '55 and '57 Roadmasters are perfectly comfortable touring with the bias ply tires.

[Guest John Chapman]

Just a thought...

It would seem the simple solution (which means it probably isn't..) would be to replace the original wheels with a later model (say '80 or newer) steel wheel that is designed for radial tires. This would transfer the wheel side loading previously absorbed by wheel flex to the suspension, but that's a non-problem unless you consistently drive at the edge of the design envelope.

JMC

[Centurion]

Yes, John, this approach has occurred to me as well. Are there newer 15" rims that both fit the '59 Buick bolt pattern and accept the '59 Buick wheelcover? Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This would transfer the wheel side loading previously absorbed by wheel flex to the suspension, but that's a non-problem unless you consistently drive at the edge of the design envelope.

</div></div>

John, I'm probably not driving the '59 at the edge of the design envelope. Given this, do you believe that wheel flex is a non-issue? Am I making this much more difficult than it needs to be?

[Bill Stoneberg]

Brian,

If you can't find them locally, there are a coupl of shops in California that will make wheels for you. The will include the correct centers for your Buick.

Stockten Wheel is one and Wheelsmith is the other. Taqke a look in any Rod and Custom in the back and you can find them. I had one made by Stockten for my 47 and it fit just like all the others.

[Centurion]

Thanks, Bill, for your input.

I e-mailed Coker Tire for input regarding the use of radial tires on the original bias ply wheels, and here is the response I received:

"Thank you for your recent inquiry into Coker Tire. It is okay to run radial tires on your original wheels. Sometimes the older wheels are cracked at the welds so you would need to have them inspected by your shop to make sure. If they are cracked or worn out, you can replace them or have the welded up by a competant welder. As little of a problem as this seems to be, it is always best to check if you are unsure."

I checked other websites, including those for various marque clubs, to obtain further input on the issue. Most drivers do not believe that failure of the original wheel is a serious concern, although I did learn of an Oldsmobile driver who experienced failure of three of his four wheels.

This may all boil down to a matter of personal preference, with the principal trade-offs involving original appearance vs. improved handling. I'm still interested in hearing from other '59 and '60 owners who can provide input regarding original tires and overall performance of their bias plies.

[Pontiac59]

My '60 Pontiac has run rims off '79 Buick and '87 Pontiac Safari wagon on it, and I had later rims on a '59 Olds I had for a while as well. I believe the Buick is the same size pattern - I measure them as 4.75" across center-center from one lug to the second across (skip the adjacent one and measure to the second hole), but I was corrected in a post here calling this a 5" pattern. Some of the 80's fullsizes use a metric bolt pattern though (88 Caprice) and will not fit up. The only problem is I believe you can only get a 15 inch wheel this way. I don't believe that GM made a 14" wheel with this pattern for a car new enough to have had radial tires when built; the cars with 14" wheels used a smaller bolt circle.

The Olds and Pontiac had 14 inchers stock in '59/'60. I wasn't that worried about it, I ran the Buick rims for a bit of a rake - and I drove that one pretty hard with radials on the stock front rims (the tie rods wore out and scalloped them to heck, resulting in their replacement) without any trouble. I couldn't match up the baby moons - meant to get some Olds rims with the nubs for the cheapo caps - but it worked and was a lot safer down the road than the junky bias-ply snows that '60 came with when I bought it.

I will say that the '37 Buick Century trim rings I had did snap right into the '79 Buick rims, so if yours runs 15 inch rims as original the hubcaps should fit no problem and then it would probably take a serious nitpicker to tell the difference. 235/75R15s fit the Pontiac no problem, though they would rub a bit if I had the back seat loaded up. Tire size shouldn't be an issue since you're trying to look original -

[Guest John Chapman]

Brian,

I'd never say somebody looking at the safe way to do things is making it too hard. After all we can recycle all these electrons, right?

There has been discussion on another thread about problems with old rims and radial tires, primarily rim bead separation. My primary concern would be metal fatigue, 'curb damage' and corrosion on the old rims, as they are ~45 years old and have a 4500 pound car on them. I'd think you could check them pretty well by pulling the wheels and have them blasted, checked for cracks, etc. and powder coated. That'd be about $100-150. As for wheel flex... on a good rim, I think you'll run out of courage and yaw control before the rim flex is enough to cause a problem

I think... (dangerous...) that the bolt pattern on your car is 5 on 5" pattern. This runs on the RWD GM B body cars. I don't know when they went to 15" rims. I'd imagine that there are 14 5 on 5 wheels out there that would work. I'd have doubts that the 14" wheel covers would fit, though.

JMC

[Centurion]

While most other U.S. manufacturers switched to 14" wheels during the 1957 - 1966? timeframe, Buick and Cadillac stayed with 15" wheels.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Brian (Centurion),

I always enjoy your interesting topics and well-written postings. Here's my input on your tire questions:

BRAND:

My 1960 Buick (10,000 miles) still sports its original 7.60x15 tires. They are Firestone brand, and the model is "500" (a name that became infamous with Firestone's troublesome radials). There are pictures of these tires on my website. I have seen Buick factory documentation from this time period that indicates tires were supplied by Firestone, Goodyear, US Royal, and BF Goodrich. I don't know if the brand depended on plant and/or size. My car was built in Flint.

WHITEWALL WIDTH:

The car is put away for the season and not presently accessible, but previous measurements (tire still on rim) were approximately 2 1/4 to 2 5/16 inches. Based on this I purchased a set of Coker's BFG 7.60x15 repros with an advertised 2.5" whitewall. Actual measurement is more like 2 7/16". I am still in the process of procuring a second (original) set of wheels for these replacement tires but when mounted, I expect, as an earlier posting stated, that the actual width will be closer to the correct 2 1/4".

SUGGESTIONS:

You already know that I favor original appearance tires over radials. This is primarily for asthetics, and I will admit I drive my cars very little. However, my recent experience with reproduction bias-ply tires on my 1970 Electra have convinced me there is a right(expensive)way and a wrong (usual) way to have tires mounted and balanced. You need to seek out a shop with a Hunter GSP-7000 balancer. It is capable (but only if you ask for it) of measuring radial force variation and rim runout. Its computer will then direct the operator where to position the tire on the rim to MINIMIZE force variation (i.e. disturbance). To truly optimize a full set of tire/wheel assemblies, you may need to mix and match individual wheels and tires. As a side benefit, this process reduces the amount of balance weights by 50% to 100%. This is the ONLY way to go with repro tires. If you'd like to discuss the process further, give me a call. (I'll email you my number.)

[Centurion]

Greg, this is precisely the kind of information I've been seeking, and I look forward to your e-mail.

I also intend to follow up directly with three other BCA members with low mileage '59 Electra series cars to learn what they can tell me regarding original tires.

I appreciate all of your replies.

[Centurion]

As promised, I am continuing this thread with some additional information obtained via e-mail from other '59 Buick owners around the country.

I want to thank Greg Cockerill again for his input regarding the Hunter balancer. I succeeded in locating some valuable contacts in my area, and it appears that a number of nearby tire shops have the equipment. I will soon contact the Hunter representative to identify the most knowledgeable and skilled shop.

I contacted two other owners of '59 Buick Electras. I met both of these individuals in Flint last summer, but had communicated with both of them for a year or more prior to the Centennial Meet. Both have very fine cars and I have high regard for both of these guys as serious Buick hobbyists. Both offered valuable input, although you will see that their opinions diverge on the radial tire vs. bias ply issue.

First off, Rolland Toenges of Edina, Minnesota purchased his 1959 Electra sedan new. The car has always been well-maintained, and a friend of mine had judged this car at a BCA National Meet held in Minnesota back in 1979 or 1980. He recalls that Rolland's original '59 was very impressive then. During the last few years, Rolland has completed a painstaking and meticulous restoration of his '59. Rolland is highly knowledgeable about these cars.

Here are a few photos of Rolland's '59, which was a Buick "Bugle" cover car about a year ago:

Here are Rolland's comments regarding tires for his '59 Electra:

"The spare on my 1959 Electra is the original and has never been on the

ground. My Electra was built in Kansas City. The spare is "U. S. Royal," 8.00 X 15. The white wall is 2 1/4 inches wide. For what it is worth, the original

equipment tires (U. S. Royal) were not good tires. As I recall, I had to

replace all of them due to defects before they had worn out.

"I currently have radials on my Electra and have not seriously considered

going back to bias ply due the dramatically improved performance. I purchased

these radials last year from my local tire dealer. They have a wide white wall

and are "Firestone FR 721, P235/75R15 M+S". I am very pleased with them. They

provide excellent ride and handling. These radials are a regular production

tire by Firestone and therefore considerably less expensive than those supplied

by the places like Coker and Diamond Back.

"From what I have heard about tires from Coker, I would believe my Firestones

are of considerably higher quality. I understand Diamond Back takes a regular

production radial and vulcanizes a white wall on it. They were having

problems with Diamond Back's sidewall yellowing but I have heard this problem has been corrected.

"The white wall on my radials is about 1 7/8." However, because the white

doesn't extend all the way to the rim, it looks the same width as the originals.

Further, having the small black section next to the rim avoids the problem of

dirty water marks when you drive the car after washing and before the water

under the bead of the rim has completely dried.Quality performance is very important to me and I did several things to my Electra to improve its handling and ride quality.

"First, I run radial tires because I find the car handles much better. Bias

tires have a tendency to ride up on a surface that is not perfectly flat

causing a need for constant steering correction. With radials, my Electra runs

strait as an arrow on almost any surface. I also find that radial tires balance

better. When I ran bias ply it seemed there was always a balance problem.

There is no question that the radial puts more stress on the rim when doing hard cornering. However, I do not drive in a manner where this is an issue for me. I have had no problem running radials on the original rims. I did have some

wheel cover noise with my previous radials but have not noticed it with my

new radials. I expanded the wheel cover retention tabs some that may have solved the noise.

"Second, I installed "Monroe Sensatrac" shock absorbers all around as I wanted

to reduce body sway and wallow. This seemed to make a noticeable difference

without compromising ride quality.

"Third, I installed all new suspension components, front and rear (springs,

control arms, ball joints, bushings, sway and stabilizer bar hardware, rebuilt

the power steering gear, etc.)

"Fourth, I had an expert front end specialist do an alignment. He set it up

for maximum positive caster. He explained that this would give me the best

handling and I have to think he is correct as it never handled as well as it does now. He worked on it almost all day and it cost me more than three times

what a normal alignment costs but I think I made a good investment.

"As far as losing points in judging by running radials, that is a secondary

concern to me. My first concern is to have the car tuned for maximum driving

quality for I judge this each time I use it."

I will enter a separate reply here for information received from others.

[Centurion]

Matt from Kansas acquired a stunning, low mileage, original '59 Electra 2-door hardtop with Triple Turbine transmission at a farm auction a few years back. Here's a photo of Matt's Lido Lavender / Arctic White beauty.

My recollection is that this car had about 30,000 miles at the time Matt acquired it. Matt drove the Buick to Flint last summer, but had not registered the car for the show. My wife and I were among the last to leave the Saturday night program in Flint, and we entered the parking lot to find three cars remaining in the parking lot: My '59 Electra, Matt's '59 Electra (with Matt waiting to meet us), and Rich Gibb with his '59 Electra. We took some nighttime photos of the three '59 Electras together, and I wish they had turned out.

Here are Matt's comments regarding tires:

"Brian, I think I have one of my original tires, I will check this evening.

I do know they were 8.00 15 with a 2.5 inch whitewall. I have Goodrich

Silvertown Bias Plys on my 59, and have driven all over the country in it

without a hint of a problem. So many people are worried about bias plys,

but I have them on my 58 Olds, 61 Chrysler, 59 Buick, 58 Chrysler, 59 Merc,

and others and have had zero problems with them other than the flat spots

from sitting that take a few miles to smooth out.

"Also, as to reliability and safety of these tires, I have driven this car ['59 Electra] to California on a 4000 mile round trip, several trips of shorter distance, and to Flint and back with the same set of Silvertowns, and again, zero problems. Sometimes the tires will like to follow lines in the road, but it isn't a major danger that some people like to make it to be. Just some

experienced thoughts."

Matt still intends to check the original spare tire, and, if I learn anything further, I will post it here.

[Centurion]

Mark from New Jersey has monitored this thread, and sent me an e-mail with comments regarding wheel interchange and radial tires. Mark owns a '59 Invicta 2-door hardtop. Here are Mark's comments:

"'59s do indeed have a 5"x5" bolt circle. This is pretty large, but as

mentioned, there are other wheels that have the same BC. However, the

problem is the center hub hole of the rim. '59s have a huge hub! I bought

generic wheel spacers from Jegs to move my front aftermarket rims out a 1/2"

per side (to clear the drum rivets), and they would not go over the hubs

until I ground the spacer's hole about a 1/8th inch larger in diameter, and

even then they were tight.

"I have a few decades-old wheel stud chart on hand, the oldest application is

'57, the newest is '82. Under the 1/2"-20, Right-Hand is listed:

"Buick, all Full Size (5x5 BC)...1955-1959".

Under 7/16ths-20 Right Hand is listed:

"Buick, All Full Size (5x4 3/4 BC): 1964-1982.

Under the 1/2-20 Right Hand & Left Hand is:

"Buick, All (except Special, Skylark): 1961-1963.

The 2 above listings are the ONLY ones that specify a 5x5 BC. Other 5x4 3/4

BC cars listed are '77-82 full size Chevy, '77-82 Catalina/ Bonne/ Executive

and the '64(??)-82 Trans Am.

"Now, I would tend to doubt Buick made a BC change in '64 when they were

still using the 45-fin aluminum drums. I believe they went to the 90-fin

units for '65, but either I or my list could very well be wrong (after all;

why isn't '60 Buick listed on the chart??). If correct however, then the

only bolt-on Buick rim would be '55-59, and any other non-Buick rim would

have to be carefully checked to insure there'd be no hub-interference

problems.

"As far as radials go, I had new repro bias plys on my '64 [Pontiac] Catalina when I bought it with 69K on the clock in '91. They were so squirrely on the

highway that I replaced them ASAP with a set of 225/70-14 radials I had on

another car, and I promptly drove the Catalina every day for 2 years and 25,000

miles with no mishaps or quirks. And back then I drove it like I thought it

was a Trans Am, too. And when I unfortunately hit a full grown deer one

night while tooling along at 105 MPH... and it wedged under the front tire

leaving 300' of skid mark (as mentioned in the police report), there was

likewise no problem with the rim/tire (besides major flatspotting). The '64

Pontiac rim has no greater provisions for radial tires (the safety lip) than

'59 rims do (both have slight lips)- so I would not expect problems in that

area from running radials on factory rims.

I" have had online discussions with a handful of people who are positive you

cannot run radials on a car not designed to originally run them or "damage"

will occur, but not a one was able to even theorize what kind of damage.

Like I said- nothing showed up in 25K of driving my '64, and having

researched & rebuilt a few front suspensions- I cannot imagine how it could

be detrimental."

I appreciate your input, Mark, and thanks for taking time to offer your perspective.

Joe Taubitz ("The Old Guy") had posted some comments on another thread that I thought might be relevant to the radial tire vs. bias ply discussion, so I'm adding it here as well:

"I have driven my 1940 Super 100,000 miles on bias tires. It is true that you have to pay a little more attention to the road with them, and they don't run 40,000 miles,but if you are really concerned about safety, you really have two choices. You can run the bias tire and drive the car, or you can replace the wheels with an aftermarket unit and do away with the originality of your Buick. I followed a friend to a meet some years ago, and he had new radials on his 1958 Limited. We got 80-90 miles from home and a rim split at the bead. We installed his spare, and on the way home, he split another. I put radials on my 1957 Caballero, but I used the later road wheels. One of the problem for the early Buicks is that the center hole is too large to accept later wheels.You can have the center machined out but unless you have access to a BIG lathe, it is expensive."

Thanks to all for your help and comments on this issue. I've obtained a great deal of valuable information, which I will weigh and make a decision.

[Centurion]

For those who contributed to this topic or read it with interest, I thought you might enjoy learning the final outcome of my process.

After weighing the counsel received here and numerous conversations with Buick friends, I finally opted for the Coker bias ply tires. Following the advice given by 70Electra, I utilized the Hunter Engineering website to locate local tire shops operating the Hunter GSP9700 balancing equipment. I found a shop that is both knowledgeable regarding the capabilities of the machine and willing to take the time to apply it to my tires and wheels.

On Saturday, I had the new tires mounted. Through the process, I learned that one of my original 1959 rims -- painted by Buick in "Silver Birch" to match my car's body -- is bent, and we also confirmed my suspicion that the spare tire was mounted on an incorrect rim. We placed the bent rim on the right rear, pending my ability to obtain a couple of correct '59 rims.

The front-end was then aligned according to the specs included in my 1959 Buick Chassis Service Manual, and the maximum allowable toe-in was selected. The alignment shop agreed that it was very helpful to have the service manual available, since the shop no longer had '59 Buick alignment specifications.

Here are my observations after mounting the tires and driving about 150 miles to a weekend car show:

1) The tires look great and absolutely correct. In this respect, I prefer them to the radial wide whitewall tires I had previously.

2) The car handles fine. I have driven the car more than 10,000 miles with steel radials over the last five years, and I was prepared to be disappointed with the handling now that the bias ply tires were installed. Not so. It drives great, and I paid particular attention to ruts in the pavement. I found none of the expected wandering over rutted road surfaces; the Buick cruised on -- straight and true.

3) The car rides great. This is a fairly subjective evaluation, but I believe that the car's ride lost some of the harshness over rough road surfaces. Generally speaking, I felt that the car was riding much the way Buick intended for it to ride. No disappointments here.

I understand that many other tire buyers will opt for radials for their vintage Buicks, but I am pleasantly surprised by the performance and appearance of the new bias ply tires on my '59.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Brian,

Glad to hear it worked out well for you. I have finally located a matching set of correct 1960 LeSabre wheels (unique 1960 styling plus 5.5" vs. the 6.0" found on Invicta & Electra) and am having them dipped. Once they are repainted, I'll be doing the same thing with my Coker BFG repros, and removing the original 10,000 mile tires and wheels.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Centurion,

I recently removed the original 10,000-mile tires and wheels from my unrestored 60 Buick and installed new reproduction bias-ply tires. (Originals have been carefully placed in storage for preservation.)

I have posted information and photos on my 1960 Buick website, which you may find interesting and/or helpful. Included is some discussion of correct whitewall width, original manufacturers, and the authentic painting of the wheels.

From The 1960 Buick home page, use the link to go to Page 11, or go to the Site Map and look up "tires".

By the way, the story on balancing with the Hunter GSP-9700 is scheduled to appear in either the August or September issue of Cars and Parts magazine.

[Centurion]

Greg, I checked out the tire and wheel page on your '60 Buick site, and it is excellent! I learned a great deal that also applies to the '59's, and I appreciate that you've provided the kind of comprehensive information that we do not find anywhere else. Any fans of these cars should not fail to spend some time reading through the material you've put together.