455 "standard" ticking

[Guest]

Hi<BR>I was looking at an 1970 Electra the other day, and after starting the engine I heard an ticking on idle and some rpm over, then it disapered. Back at idle again, ticking again. The seller told that it was "normal/standard" Buick 455 ticking. What did he mean, is he corect, if so, what couses the ticking?? The engine shall have new lifters, push rods and rocker arms.

[GSMAG]

No such thing as standard/normal ticking. He's yanking your chain! Could be a bad lifter or rocker arm that quiets down under higher oil pressure. Good luck.

[AK Buickman]

Any ticking from the engine would not be considered normal. On some engines, ticking coming from a well-sealed, solid exhaust system can sound like a valve train noise. From my experience, cars using some aftermarket stock-style pipes coming off the exhaust manifolds produce an annoying tick at idle. It may have to do with an aftermarket pipe using thinner gauge metal, thus noisier?????<BR>My '70 GS 455 Stage 1 used to do just this. I also remember my Grandfather's 1965 LeSabre doing this. <BR>AK Buickman.............

[Guest]

Could be an exhaust leak. I believe that the 455's didn't come w/ exhaust manifold gaskets from the factory so were more prone to getting leaks. I have a ticking as well from a small leak on the rear corner of the passenger manifold and thats w/ gaskets that were put on at some point in the past. With the engine cold, start it up and start feeling around the mating surfaces of the manifolds. If there's leak, you'll feel it. Hope this helps.<P>Zach

[Guest]

Worn rocker arms and shafts can cause ticking. They are easy to check and replace once you pull the valve cover.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Just wanted to offer my comments and clarify to the "regulars" that the original posting is NOT from me. <P>(Note to "70 Electra--Unregistered User": please choose another name, as "70 Electra" is already in use as my registered name. THANKS!)<P><BR>I worked at a Buick dealer for several years in the mid-seventies. I noticed several "common" problems with Buick 455's and valve train noise was one of them.<P>Typically, the noisy cars (often well-cared for cars with LOW miles) were easily quieted by replacing the rocker arms and shafts.<P>The mechanics always told me the problem was due to the "soft" aluminum rocker arms used on the Buick. The fact they were non-adjustable (unlike a Chevy!) made part replacement the only cure.<P>Can't say for sure if it's true, but the mechanics also claimed the problem was initiated by running the car low on oil (and thus limiting the lubrication of the rocker arms). Seemed plausible, since the 455's usually consumed a moderate amount of oil and many that we serviced were found to be "low".<P>Can't say for sure if that's your problem, but wanted to offer the advice. Good luck!

[Guest grisby]

Let me see here. Ticking is not normal?? I know a total of 4 people with 455's all rebuilt and they have ticking, plus 3 of those were done by different engine builders. And they were all rebuilt with new parts, nothing reused(rockers etc) I had my 455 rebuilt about 1 1/2 yrs ago by a very reputable builder in NYC. It ticked, I even took motor out of car and back to him. It still ticks, I have all new valve train, including new steel rockers no exhaust leak, and I was told that this is the "normal" buick ticking". SO what/who is pulling whose chain or who do I believe. On the other side of the coin is, I know about 1/2 dozen others who have 455's in their cars and they are very quiet! Not trying to start anything here, just would like to know what/who do you believe!!<BR>signed<BR>tick tick tick <BR>bill g

[Guest]

Any time I had a tick on my rebuilt 455<BR>it was the new lifters I bought. I then bought new ones and after replacing the rear two lifters it went away.

[Guest grisby]

Russ,Sounds "kosher" to me, Now next question. The builder used "sealed power" brand. Would it behove me to get another brand or just get the same? And to replace the whole set on the side that is making the noise or to buy a couple of lifters and just replace the suspected ones?? Also is it correct to "assume" ( I hate that phrase) that no damage is being done other than the ticking is just aggravating! Sorry for all the questions within a question.<BR>bill g

[YellowLark]

One more ingredient to throw into the pot...<P>I had annoying ticking for years with my '66 340-4 engine. Especially at idle. Various veteran mechanics told me it was a sticking valve. Finally I determined what it was -- the exhaust manifold heater valve was loose and flapping around. Fixed that and no more ticks.<P>Check that out as a possible cause.

[Guest]

TA Performance claims that Buick lifters are slightly larger in diameter than most other American V8's. They claim that you should use their lifters or stock Buick lifters only. Otherwise you might get stuck with undersize lifters. <BR>My engine ticks sometimes. I bought a cam and lifters from crower, so if TA is right that might be my problem. But it is very slight. The reason I rebuilt the motor in the first place was because of a bad ticking/knocking during freeway driving. I had already replaced the rocker shafts and that helped, but didn't cure the problem. So I rebuilt it, and it still makes a little noise, but I'm not going to sweat it.<BR>It could also be a piston slap (my block was manually honed from .030 to .040 so if the machinist screwed up a cylinder it would cause a slap.<BR> If I were to rebuild it again I would go with a TA cam and lifters and hyperutetic pistions (hyperutetic pistions fit tighter). I would also get my exhaust manifolds belt sanded so that they wouldn't get that occasional leak.

[Guest 70 Electra]

I have no experience with rebuilt 455 engines, but the low mileage (38K) 70 Electra I currently own doesn't make a sound.<P>During the time I worked at the Buick dealer in the mid-seventies the only "tick" problems I remember with 455's were the cars with bad rockers (as discussed earlier). <P>In the same time period, my family had a new 73 Electra which eventually racked up about 140K miles. Never had a tick problem. (In fact the only problem was a bad oil pump around 50K).<P>A final comment regarding rebuilding of engines..... Just because you spend a bunch of money doesn't mean it's done right!

[The Old Guy]

I have 455 engines in four cars and none of them tick. I did have a tick in one of them and it was the exhaust, which I repaired. by replacing the gaskets.

[Guest]

I always change all of them while I'm there.I changed to buick lifters and this solved problem.I always believed if a new lifter is ticking oil pressure is affected and or metal damage is occurring however minute it may be.Also I like a quiet car when I drive so when a noise shows up I can trace it easier.

[GSMAG]

I've had three and the only one that ticked had Rhodes lifters in it, they're supposed to tick. I agree with the previous post that other lifters can cause low oil pressurer in a Buick and should be avoided. This could be a problem on a freshened engine.

[Guest]

That doesn't make sense to me because the Chevy lifters are smaller in diameter than the Buick ones. I think it is a manufacturing tolerance flaw and not so much a lifter flaw. But even after all the noise my engine made before I took it apart I didn't see anything that looked worn inside of it.

[Guest]

If you look at some other Buick sites. It is quite common for some 455 to have some lifter noise. I have 200 miles on my 455 that was rebuilt by a local Buick guy and I have a little lifter noise at start up and a slight amount at idle (25 psi oil pressure). I have heard of some Buick "profesional" guys using some Chevrolet lifters as a way to work around the problem. This would lead me to think that there is some manuf. flaw in some Buick lifters. One thing that will help the lifter noise at start up is to make sure and use an oil filter with a anti-drain back valve.

[Guest 70 Electra]

This topic seems to have "quieted down" (sorry, I couldn't resist that!). Thought I'd add some fuel to the fire.....<P>One of the advantages of working for Generous Motors is being able to speak directly to some of the people that were involved in these products. Here's what one of the Buick engine engineers had to say in response to my inquiry about this controversial subject:<P>"There never was a noise 'problem' with the 455 valve train. However, as with any engine, problems can develop which will result in lifter or valve train noise.<P>"One bank of the engine is oiled across the front cam bearing, so if the bearing is replaced incorrectly (at rebuild) there could be a restriction that would result in low oil pressure to the lifters of the receiving side.<P>"Similarly, if the engine is high mileage, the groove in that cam bearing could be holding debris or leaking heavily (due to wear). Either way, the receiving side would not be getting the flow it requires.<P>"The front cam bearing is heavily loaded, since it supports the oil pump drive, distributor drive, fuel pump, and cam drive. Therefore it would be a prime suspect in the case of so-called lifter noise. If the problem engine is low-mileage, the oil supply would still be the primary suspect.<P>"Regarding the rocker arms, low oil supply and/or wear can cause noise, but it is a different type of noise than typical lifter noise."<P>As Rod Serling used to say on the Twilight Zone: "Submitted for your approval...." Hope this sheds some light on the topic.

[Guest 1972buick455]

I am new to this forum but have been building buick 400-455 for years and through my reserch and close consultation with Compition Cams, about ticking lifters is NOT NORMAL.... The Buick oiling system is funky as it oils the valve train first then down to the crank. the cam bearings must be in good condition, TA Performance offers fully groved bearings that adresses this oiling issue. The lifters must recieve adequate oiland pressure to keep them pumped up also there are substandard lifters out there and different oiling hole posistions in the lifters and different plunger cup sizes. I have been using DELFI GM type lifters only. The lifter when pumped up should be hard to push down the push rod cup. Do not pump them up before installing new ones just oil them well, upon start up they should tap then pump up to its operating cup position. Also you should check the push rod length after block decking or installing different heads. Also worn rocker arms and shafts will cause ticking. Hope this helps.

[NTX5467]

(Another vintage thread . . .)

Perhaps that Buick had been around too many "ticking" Chevies from back then? Tried too hard to fit in?

Chrysler B/RB engines also oil the valve train first, rather than the main bearings. Why? Because it's easier to hear a ticking valve lifter (from an oil level that's too low) than to later feel the thud of an un-oiled main bearing. You'd be surprised how many older people can key on that ticking valve lifter!

By observation, an exhaust "tick" is a different frequency and sound than a valve train "tick". If the exhaust manifold bolts don't have the "lock" on them, then just a quick 1/4 turn on the bolt head will probably quieten things down, unless it's a manifold crack causing the sound.

When COMP CAMS "High Energy" series of assymetrical lobe camshafts came out in the earlier 1980s, they were known to sound like a mechanical lifter camshaft, although they were fully hydraulic-liftered. After about 10K miles, that noise went away. Why? Their lobe shapes were obviously causing a little "slack", although the valve lifters were correctly adjusted. Not loud, just that normal sound of a mechanical lifter valve train at idle.

Just some "old-time" thoughts . . .

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

When I buy a Buick I expect the engine to run silently. New car buyers spending money in the Buick range would not expect less. Right now I am dealing with what appears to be valve train noise in my 3.8 PA engine. It is on one cylinder, rear bank, right hand side of the car. It is not an immediate priority and will probably make the "to do" list in the spring. Everything is sleeping now, although we did take the Impala over to Podunk when it was lunch time today.

Noise as described in this discussion is from incorrect clearance under some condition. You listen, disassemble the parts in the location, and fix it. There are a lot of tests I haven't seen mentioned here. Measuring with micrometers, dial indicators, calipers, spring compressors, inch/pound gauges are a few. Ever put a timing light on valve train parts to get a strobe effect? There is an operational indicator.

I could get out my soap box and whine about disappointment after disappointment from dealing with so-called professionals. The more professional a service is hyped up to be the more disappointing the experience. If you just went through a 100 step process and there is a chance step 2 got screwed up you have to be willing to backtrack and repeat.

So diagnose, disassemble, and repair as many times as it takes. Sometimes its hard.

I do remember a '68 LeSabre I had that ticked annoyingly at a rate matching engine speed. You could hear it driving, under the hood, and it was really elusive. Finally, a little grease from my fingertip applied to the distributor cam lobe just instantly silenced it; amazing how those points bang around!

I had breakfast yesterday with a long time friend who once said "The level of perfection you can achieve is directly proportional to the number times you are willing to do something over." I had a heart attack but it wasn't because I had to buy two gasket sets for one engine rebuild.

Bernie

Edited January 13, 2013 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)