10 point spread

[Guest]

AACA cars are judged on their own merit. Not so, a first jr. must be 365 or better in points for a trophy, but the kicker is you must be within 10 point of the top scoring car or no award.

A 390 point-trailer queen that does not see the light of day from show to show can knock you out of the running. Why the 10 point spread? If you make the 365 or better, you should be a winner. That is why many owners do not belong to ?AACA?.

You can fool some the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time.

DROP THE 10-POINT SPREAD- AS IT SERVES NO PURPOSE.

[Guest greg72monte]

This thread probably belongs in the judging forum.

However I will respond here.

I am sorry you did not get the award you were trying for.

Yes, it is possible for a "driven" car to get their award

against trailered cars, difficult but possible.

I know first hand because I drive my 72 Monte Carlo to meets.

I compete in Class 27J, which is usually quite large.

Received First Junior at Carlisle, drove 360 miles round trip.

Received Senior at Hershey, drove 300 miles round trip.

Will be going to Grand National next year.

Don't give up, as AACA is a great club. Keep trying, do a little

more work on your car, and don't get discouraged.

But, most important, have a good time. Improve your car,

as I did, to please yourself, not the judges.

Success will come your way!

Gregory Roser

[R W Burgess]

I moved this thread for more exposure. I hear these types of questions all the time around large shows, and I'm not smart enough to know all the answers. Wayne

[ex98thdrill]

Wait 'til he gets to AGNM when it becomes a 5 point deficit.

[Guest Skyking]

I may be rattling a cage, but I think trophies should only go to cars that are done by their owners!

[R W Burgess]

Geez Sky, You really want to confuse things. Can you imagine what percentage of work would have to be considered done by the owner to get the trophy. I don't think you'll ever see that happen. As ex98thdrill can attest to, you an do it yourself and win the trophy, but it ain't easy. Wayne

[Guest Skyking]

Wayne, I'm talking about the 3 most important things, BODY WORK, FIT & PAINT.

[R W Burgess]

I hate this... to get political with you Sky. But, it's just like politics, when all the money gets "their" way in life. I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings here, but most of the time the best cars are done by professionals with thousands of man hours invested in a complete restoration with their special manufactoring resources to back them up. On my part I'm proud to know that people like Pat and his Dad, Milton, can compete with restoration jobs like that. There should be room in the hobby for both sides of this issue I would think. Wayne

[6219_Rules]

That is why I rarely show my cars. They are touring cars for the better part, and I know that unless I happen to be the ONLY one in the particular class, mine will never place. That is OK though. Sometimes it is just fun to show them! Perhaps we could suggest separating the class, and creating an A class and a B class: The A = professionally restored vehicles for preservation, and the B = personal restorations for enjoyment, preservation and touring. THere is already a Touring Class, and an Unmodified/Original so why not try splitting the Restored class?

Let me guess...too much work, more man hours and people would be insulted that their car is in the B class. "What's so special about THEIR car...they only PAID for it."

On second thought, never mind. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> The way most 'adults' act these days, it is easier to just let people complain.

[Guest BruceW]

Randall,

I see your point and it could be a valid concern to some. The sticky point I see about having a separate class for "profressional restorations" and "personal restorations" is where do you draw the line on what is consodered a personal or prefeccional restoration? Its clear cut if Hobbyist #1 buys a car and sends it to a proffesional restoration with a $150,000 check and never turns a wrench on the car.... or Hobbyist #2 does an entire restoration himself in his garage.

However, there are not that many people who can or have the means to do everything themself. What if Joe Schmoe rebuilds the engine, completely restores the running chassis, and installs a LeBaron Bonney interior all by himself.... but then sends it to a proessional shop for body work and paint, and maybe installation of glass? What you have ended up with is a car partially restored by the owner and partially restored by a professional.

Another thought I had was ..what is to prove a car was restored by a professional restorer if the owner wants to say he did it himself?

Just a few thoughts....

[DaveBerg]

This topic does come up for discussion every few years and I can understand why each side has a point. To a degree. Lets first look at the "Standard". The standard by which AACA judges a vehicle is 400 points. All vehicles are given 400 points when they enter the field. Points are then deducted accordingly. The initial writer is entirely correct in saying that to achieve the 1st Junior award one must score 365 or above AND be within 10 points of the highest scoring vehicle in that class also competing for the same award. If that were changed and all vehicles scoring 365 or above were awarded the prize then 365 would become the standard of perfection and not 400. Would this cause those restoring vehicles to no longer strive for perfection? Would 90% be enough? Would this make you happy if it were your car? Interesting food for thought at the least.

The 10 point spread allows a cushion for those "very close" cars to be awarded the same prize. Personally I find it to be a great system and have judged in excess of 180 AACA National Meets over the last near 25 years.

Is a trailered car favored over a driven one. Absolutely not. It is no doubt easier for the owner to make show ready a trailered vehicle. For the driven car it means more prep, more clean up, etc but it is absolutely doable and I have seen it first hand. Including my own 1940 Cadillac that has never been on a trailer. Some of my other vehicles have. I also recall a Chrysler from years back that was a consistent near 400 point vehicle and driven not only to the meets but on some tours as well.

Believe me, this system is the very best around. Perfect, of course not, its always looking to improve. But having judged in many marque clubs as well I can assure you the majority of judges and vehicle owners all over the country really like the AACA way. I have personally helped several marque clubs to adopt policies and principles of AACA judging.

Keep on showing those cars and all things will work out fine.

[R W Burgess]

Thank you for your reply Mr. Berg. It's good to see Board members helping us guys out. Wayne

[6219_Rules]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Berg! I have learned something I did not know...how it worked! Judging sounds interesting. I wonder if I have been wrong to think my cars 'unworthy' of it? To be honest, I have a thin skin about the shape of my babies. I do the best I can with what I have but I am a hard task master. Maybe I should enter my car in an AACA show...it might get 200 points!

Seriously, it might be interesting to see how it would do.

[DaveBerg]

Thank you fellows, I do appreciate the comments. We do need to make one change though. I'm Dave, when someone says Mr. Berg it reminds me of all too many trips to the Principals Office!

The first time I took my 1940 Cadillac to a National Meet I thought it was a lock to win. It would do real well at the local shows. When it didnt win at Hershey, to say the least I was not a happy camper. Off I went to my first AACA Judging School (Held at every National Meet and FREE to all AACA members). Fortunately at the next meet it did win its award. Then came actually judging at a National Meet. That opens your eyes to a world of things, both good things and also to learn the not so good things so you can help others to not make that mistake as well as not making it yourself.

A few interesting facts:

Over 85% of all cars shown at a National Meet (actually the exact figure is fairly higher) win an award. No, it may not always be the award the owner hoped for, but any award at a National Meet is a treasure. There is no other collector vehicle organization that I know of that can boast a percentage of award winners anywhere near that figure.

Once a vehicle wins a 1st Junior it moves up so that those that didnt win on that day will no longer have to compete with that car for that award again. Thus giving other vehicles a somewhat better opportunity. The same applies to the Senior award. Once won you move on and no longer compete for that Senior Award.

If a vehicle has a MAJOR problem that in and of itself could make the difference in a vehicle recieving an award or not. The Team Captain is encouraged to advise the vehicle owner of that problem.

If you dont win the award you have sought, ie you get a 2nd Jr. instead of a 1st Jr., You may write the VP of Class Judging for a copy of your score sheet. You will recieve a score sheet not with actual point markings but with the area of deduction highlighted. Then if you keep an open mind, go out to your car with that sheet in hand. Check each component highlighted, you should fairly quickly determine what the problem was. It really does work.

For those interested in further info National Headquarters for just a few dollars makes available copies of the current judging manual. (If you attend a National Judging School they even give you the manual FREE). Wait till February though as the new one comes out during the Annual Meeting in Philadelphia. Oooops was I suppose to push the leftovers! Darn, screwed up again.

Anyway, I didnt mean to monopolize the forum here. But I truly do believe our system is the finest for all concerned. Before someone gets frustrated and walks away from it I wanted to stick my two cents worth in. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

thanks again

dave

[Restorer32]

You are correct. It is not fair for the do it yourselfer to compete in the same class with professionally restored cars. IT IS NOT FAIR TO THE PROFESSIONAL RESTORER and here's why. The guy doing his own work doesn't have to count his hours. The professional restorer has to account for every minute worked if he is to stay in business. The do it yourselfer can learn the skills of the professional. The pro simply can't, in most cases, spend an unlimited amount of time on a project. There are very few "no expense spared" restorations, most everybody has a budget. If you disagree try keeping track of all the hours you spend restoring your car and remember...while the pro is probably more efficient in his work he still has to account to the owner for the time spent..the amateur can do, redo, and redo again without a thought about the time involved. If anyone has an advantage it's the dedicated do it yourselfer, in my humble opinion.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Restorer32,You said it ALL,much better than i ever could.When i am working on a certain part and have to re-do it 3 times before i am satisfied i dont have to justify it to anyone except my dad who always wonders what is taking so LONG.Do your research,WHATEVER time it takes to make it look like it just left the factory or better ,SPEND it....you WILL be rewarded and WONT have to stare at your shoelaces while your car is getting judged.I would rather spend extra time at the garage than make EXCUSES on the show field,Or WORRY about the 10 point spread.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[1937hd45]

I worked in a restoration shop for 14 years and the one thing that bugged me, was the "just a driver" restoration.You'd start out with this goal of "just a driver", so pits in the chassis were OK after sandblasting, rubber valve stems were cheaper in the tires, modern hardware came in fresh from a supplier, etc. Once finished the car always went to a show and lost out on first place, and the owner would [censored] about it. Gee, Mr.Cheapo, I could have told you that when you ordered the "just a driver" restoation on day one. Never understood why the boss would take on jobs like that.

[Janet Ricketts]

Dear Anonymous,

As I am sure many other AACA members will tell you a non-professionally restored driven vehicle can win a 1st place award in AACA. My husband and I have shown many vehicles over the years in AACA and have won 1st place Jr. and Senior awards, none of which were professionally restored. However, we did trailer them at times to national meets. Our vehicles do get driven on national and local tours and enjoyed at local car shows.

What I really want to share is an article in the July-August 2003 issue of the 'Antique Automobile'. On page 16 there is an article about Johnnie Garner's various vehicles. Don?t tell Johnnie that you can't compete with a professionally restored car and a trailer queen. Johnnie does all his own restorations; his cars have never seen the inside of a trailer and he has driven his vehicles all over the country showing them (including out west) in AACA, the Mustang Club, and many local meets. He not only has won 1st place awards in AACA with his driven cars, but also was selected by the AACA National Awards Committee as the recipient of the prestigious Post War Car Award.

There are many many other stories just like Johnnie's in AACA. It is not easy and takes a lot of time and dedication to drive a vehicle and still compete with a professionally restored vehicle that is a trailer queen, but it can be done!

I agree with Dave Berg, AACA is not pefect, but we do a terrific judging system; we are an all inclusive club recognizing vehicles with original features, driven vehicles, do not judge vehicles and judged vehicles.

I enjoyed the comments from Restorer32, never thought about it in those terms.

Janet

[R W Burgess]

Janet, A nicer lady I haven't met. Let me tell everyone about the first time I met you. It was a few years back at a National Meet put on by the Tidewater Region in Cheasapeake, Va. Earl Beauchamp talked me into driving my '65 Black Corvette down there to the show. My wife, Gloria, and I parked on the show field and were wiping and polishing up a storm. We'd look up each time another Corvette would show up in our class. Then a beautiful Cascade Green '57 from Long Island, NY came down the row and parked beside us. The gentleman got out of the car, opened the trunk, took out his "show" seat cushion bottom, and replaced it with the one he "sat" on, on the way onto the field. My wife and I looked at each other, stopped all the foolishness of cleaning, and set down to enjoy the show. We were way out of our league. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> When judging time came around, I heard other Corvette owners whispering to themselves that here comes the judging group. I looked up with anticipation, and saw this petite young lady with the judging group. That's when I realized that this lady was the chief judge(I think). I thought to myself, "What could this little woman possibly know about Corvettes?" <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Yeh, I'm a little redneckish! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, this lady and her group did their job, asked questions from us, and treated us with respect. That was my first experience with a big national show. I didn't win anything that day, but I don't hold it against you, Janet. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, my car at that time and today is just a driver, but it was a good experience and we had fun. Still do. Thanks AACA. Wayne Burgess

Post Script; For you fellows who don't know, the lady owns at least one Corvette. She knows her stuff too.

[Janet Ricketts]

Wayne,

Thanks for not holding it against me! The most important thing is that you did not let it affect your attitude toward AACA and you had a great time.

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[rodlars]

To get back to the original question, I think you are looking at the 365 from the wrong perspective. I perceive it as a "safety net" rather than a pure required minimum. I beleive it is the AACA's intent to award 1st place in the class to the highest scoring vehicle and then allow any others scoring within 10 points to come along for the first place ride. At most meets, the class winner is probably going to score 390+, so the bar has been set. The 365 is probably a number that was determined to prevent a low scoring vehicle from winning a national 1st just because it happened to be the only car in that class on that particular Saturday. I also disagree with your comment that not dishing out 1st juniors to every vehicle that scores 365 points is chasing away exhibitors. If just about everyone received one, it wouldn't mean as much so why bother trying for one. You have to keep in mind that this is a national event so in order to maintain an acceptable level of prestige, it should be a difficult award to win. As it is, it is much easier to win an AACA first than it is at most marque-specific nationals. The year I received my first junior, senior and was nominated for a national award, my car placed 3rd in class at the Mopar Nationals. It should be noted that the car was restored by the previous owner in his own garage with the exception of the paint job which was shot by a friend who was a little more experienced. I trailered the car to the shows only because it had 3.91 gears which made it difficult to cruise over 55 mph and I hate having to clean dead bugs out of my grille and radiator core. While at home, the car was driven to several local shows, cruise nights and was street raced on occasion. Hardly what I would call a "trailer queen". Cheers! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Dynaflash8]

I've seen my name in this thread a time or two, so I should post something on this subject. In truth, I've found it harder to win a first at local shows than at a National Meet and that is because of the ten point spread and perhaps to the training National Judges receive. I've restored my favorite car three times since 1963. None of these restorations was done in a professional restoration shop; however being a better writer than mechanic I have had to use the sub-contractor method. That method is managing the restoration by finding a good local body shop, mechanic or upholsterer and let them do just their part. You find your own parts, handle dealing with a plater for your own plating, acquire all the necessary manuals and brochures. Then you read them so you'll have an idea what you need to have done and how it needs to be done. Then you go to judging schools, read the judging manual and learn where it is that you have to go.

The first time I restored the car I had it painted enamel in a soso shop because it was the best I could afford to do, and for upholstery I used seat covers. That was about 1965 and I didn't win anything anywhere. In 1971 a friend arranged to have the car painted laquer (over the enamel) at a Pontiac garage, and I had a local shop do the upholstery. Both jobs were excellent, but the car was slightly offshade from correct and I had cut all the corners I could, like rubber replacement and really good engine detailing. I couldn't get higher than a 2nd National. So, in 1979 my good friend (now my next door neighbor) offered to do it right. As a retired electronics tech, his total experience was working in a body shop as a teenager and having had a late brother-in-law who ran a body shop in Michigan. But my friend was meticulous, a reader, and into details. The 1971 upholstery work was really good, and the engine had been rebuilt by a Baltimore machist in 1965. We totally disassembled the car. I cleaned the undercarriage and helped strip the body bare. Except for finding a terrific amateur wood grainer who was good beyond belief, my friend did the rest. In 1981 we drove it to Reading, PA and won a 1st Junior, going away. Then in October we drove it to Hershey and won the Senior. We were even recommended for a National Award, but didn't get it. The following year we drove it to Hagerstown, MD and won a Grand National 1st when there was NO point spread. There was no Grand National Senior then, so I drove it all over locally, drove it to shows, drove it on a Founders Tour all during the 1980s into the 90s. During that time my energies were diverted to building a new house. After I found out about the new Senior Grand National Award in the 90's I ran the car through once without winning, so I hired a part time detailer guy who spent a day on the car for $100 and in 2000 it got the Grand National Senior. That was 18 years after winning the Grand National First. I tell this whole story because this car was an amateur, driven restoration even though I didn't do most of it with my own hands. I do trailer it long distances now because I don't want to wear out the mechanicals on the interstate or catch stones from semi's. All of my mechanics are getting as old as I am. The AACA Judging system is the best in the World. I was Chairman of Training 25 years ago and it hasn't changed much since then. That's because for almost 50 years, people smarter than I am designed and tried various systems until they found the right one. It really boils down to learning what you have to do, and then finding your own way to do it. Even the professional shops can't always do it right, if you haven't done your own research and are able to specify what you want and expect. So that 10-point spread isn't bad at all. It allows space for many intangiables, from the human variance that can enter into judging, to the greater difficulty in finding perfect parts for a Graham than let's say for some other cars. Hope this helps.

[Guest]

Bruce ~ You brought up a point that I made 24 years ago when I was Judges Training Director. When you start making the pecentage of work done by the owner a criteria for judging, you will create a "Liar's Club." <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Just an opinion I have held for 24 years.

hvs

[48LCCOUPE]

To say there should be two classes, one for pro restoration and one for do it yourself restoration would be as futile as trying to keep Olympic and NCAA atheletes hold to an ametuer ranking.

I love it when someone tells me they did their car all themselves with no pro shop like so and so building his car with his paycheck. Ask who built or freshened the motor, who did the body work, glass, paint, upholstry, wiring, rebuilt the authentic radio, did the chrome plating (dod't have a plating shop behind the garage?), radiator work, carpet, and on and on. All of these things can be done by the do it your selver. You could even go out and buy tubing and a tubing bender and do your own exhaust.

The point should be the hobbie. Is it fun? Do you enjoy it? Did a car get saved from the crusher by your sweat, tears and dirty fingernails or by your hard earned money? As long as you care for the vehicle(s) and enjoy them, whether you enjoy driving them as I do or trailing them to a show and burst with pride, you are still enjoying them.

Enjoy. If you need a trophy real bad, go to the trophy shop and buy a big one and put whatever you want on the plaque for under $100.00, it's faster, cheaper and will look good in your garage.

Dave Hugo

p.s. I work on them all I can because I am thifty (read cheap) and I use this hobby as a hobby.

[ex98thdrill]

Thanks for the compliment Wayne. I get a kick out of people who snub the so called "trailer queens." We trailer our cars to several shows because we busted out butt on them to get them nice, and know by trailering them, they'll stay that way. My dad and I call some of those cars "checkbook restorations." When we can do our stuff in our own shop, and be able to compete (and sometimes beat) the professional restored vehicles, it makes you feel good, and it proves to us that we've done well.

Of course what makes things harder for us is the fact that we don't have the resources to make sure everything is letter perfect (like parts and reference materials), where some of these shops that specialize in a certain model have the knowledge and experience to do these cars letter perfect.

Due to our success with our vehicles, now we face the people who want us to restore their cars. At this point, we restore cars because we like doing it. If we do it as a business, the fun will be gone, and it'll be a job just like everything else. Besides, we've got enough of our own iron where we don't have the time to mess with other stuff.

[1937hd45]

One of the main reasons a friend restores and shows Rupp Mini Bikes,he wins the EXACT SAME throphy as a pro restored Duesenberg.

[ex98thdrill]

Yeah I know, but when you bust your butt on an orphan car, and then you see that Rupp mini bike get the same thing, you tend to just shake your head. I'm quite positive that we have spent more hours working on one DOOR than what it would take to do that WHOLE Rupp mini bike. But on the flip side, I'm quite sure that the guy at Hershey who restored that big old Mack truck probabably says the same thing about us car owners. If the guys with those high dollar cars don't like it, they can do an Artic Cat mini bike.

When I was a kid, I had a Rupp mini bike, and the neighbors had an Artic Cat.

....And that Artic Cat couldn't catch me on that Rupp unless it was getting towed. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />