Why not tell the score?

[rodlars]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because of this, you may have instances where the judge may take points off for something that isn't wrong, and the current policy prevents the car owner from proving themselves as right. On the flip side, you may have a judge who does know the difference, and a car owner that doesn't, and because of the policy, the car owner may not be able to correct the problem.</div></div>

Call me stubborn, but I still disagree with this point, 98th. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The present system will indeed let the owner know what he was docked for and would allow him to correct the vehicle or refute the deduction. For example, if I am constantly being deducted for a gas tank finish that I know is correct, the amount of points deducted is irrelevant. All I need to know is the component that is constantly costing me and then make sure I have the proper documentation in hand at the next national meet I attend. If you had the point totals handy, I suppose you would be directed to the biggest of your problem areas, but like I said earlier, If you are honest with yourself and have a reasonable amount of knowledge about your car, you probably already know all of the answers.

[ex98thdrill]

We got docked at Carlisle for wiring, the documentation was there. There is NOTHING out of place in our wiring harness, and NO ONE QUESTIONED it. But the car isn't a Ford and there are things on that wiring harness that weren't done on a Ford back then.

I'm not saying I'm always right, but for you to say that the judges are always right is WRONG. If a person wins their first junior, I don't see any reason why a person can't find out their weekenesses BEFORE they go to the next level. This isn't an issue of integrety, this is an issue of self improvement. If you want to take the issue of "That's not the way it left the Factory" then I guess we'll have to take points off of every car made before 1975 because none of the older cars left the factory left with unleaded gas.

If a person wants to know how to improve their vehicle, I see no problem with them asking, and if they ask, they deserve an answer. If a car scores a 397, and the owner asks what he scores, he deserves to find out what his score is, and where he lost his points.

[Restorer32]

Was your wiring harness not only correctly installed but manufactured from the correct materials? Were your terminals correct? No shrink tubing or plastic tape? Battery cables of the correct size and finish? Cables not showing modern markings? Ignition wires with the correct ends? Correct wire loom where needed?Period wiring clamps?

[ted sweet]

And that is also wrong.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, can this 70 Dodge get top awards at a Mopar only,

probably NOT! There are too many Dodge experts on hand that would

pick out the problems right away.

One last possibility is that the Dodge owner is just ignorant

about his car. Maybe he was sold a bill of goods by the previous

owner (or dealer) and the proper research was not done.</div></div>

This very same car received 1st Place - E-body Dodge Stock at the 2000 Mopar Nationals. In the owners's defense, he admits that he did in fact add the RT badging. It is a genuine Challenger convertible equipped with the 340 package. Dodge did not begin badging 340's as RT's until 1971. Even if the judge was aware of this bit of history, the point deductions would be for the unneccessary RT badges the car is wearing (grille, front fenders, trunk lid)only. Everything else on the car is quite legit. The judges at the Mopar Nats were well aware of this fact but the quality of the restoration is just too much to deny. The car is absolutely dead-on with the exception of the extra badging. While I think it is quite worthy of its national 1st and AGNM badges, it does seem a little awkward to have this particular hybrid as a national award winner (Chocolate Town, if I am not mistaken). </div></div>

[Guest]

Pat ~ Based on my many years of AACA judging I honestly believe that for every point deducted in error there is something on that same vehicle that should be deducted for that isn't.

I do believe that in almost all cases at an AACA National Meet the right cars get the proper awards, but not necessarily always for the right reasons.

Years ago when I was VP of Class Judging I had a man write and tell me everything that was wrong with all of the other cars in his class at a Grand National where he had gotten a third. I wrote back telling him that based on his vast knowledge we should probably re-evaluate the placement of all the cars in his class, but first we would need him to evaluate his own car as thoroughly as he did every one else's. Know what, he never answered my letter.

Owners should be honest with themselves and recognize that they get by with something that should have been deducted for at every meet. I know I did back when I was showing cars.

hvs

This post really doesn't address the issue of giving owners their point scores at a Meet. It is more to point out that while judges can and do make mistakes, they make them both ways.

[Ron Green]

Well said Howard. I have also done two things that could assist ex98 and anybody else that is trying to determine how to get the least amount of points deducted.

If arriving the Friday before a national meet I have run into ( at the trailer parking) a few judges that were more then happy to give my vehicle the once over (off the record). They helped me with those small pesky deductions that many car owners just plain miss. Another way was to talk to the owner that received the senior or grand national award for their vehicle check mine out. I have helped others in this way with some commenting about we are in the same class however I don't look at it that way. I have even given paint and cleaning supplies to the car next to me because he was from another state and forgot some of his stuff. I would expect the same.

Don't be afraid to ask other owners to run you copies of documentation that they have and you are missing. I have been on the recieving and giving end of doing this and it works out just fine. Remember your vehicle is going against the book and starts out with 400 points, not another owner. We need to help each other out not keep things from each other. Webster defines hobby as a "pastime activity", is it?

[ex98thdrill]

32, Our wiring harness was and is correct according to the diagrams that we have for it. We learned our lesson on our truck a couple of years back. Howard and Ron, you're both very right. I still believe that for the benefit of the hobby, that it would be nice if the information was shared. There have been instances where people have helped us, and it doesn't seem like it has hurt us.

If a judge helps the owner with information to improve his vehicle, I think it would be a benefit.

If the car owner has the documentation to show a judge where the judge can learn something, that is a benefit as well.

Without the interaction on both sides, the judges may not learn something that they could've learned, and the car owners may not make a correction because they may not know.

I firmly believe that the current rules look more like "we'll take the points, we won't tell you, and if you can't figure it out, too bad."

We've taken Senior Awards on the vehicles that we're showing. The vehicles that we aren't showing, we don't bring them out, because we're trying to get them right before we bring them out. If someone scores a 395 on a car, it would be nice to tell them. On the other hand, if someone scores a 368 and goes home empty, it would be nice to tell them where they can pick things up. The current rule does give a vague guidance and on some things if you can read between the lines. With some of these classes, the competition may be close enough to where it could boil down to a case of not having the base of the spark plugs back when they're supposed to be.

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

Howard

Although I am on the side of wanting to get scores back, I will say...That is 100% correct. I have been priviledged to get my score sheets back from many national and regional shows ( non AACA ) and the balance is always there.

and Ron...you're heading toward attaining my GOOD GUY award!! You do, what I do all the time... I try and help as many people as I can, the guys with 66 and 67 Chevelles are the ones I help, b/c I know these cars VERY WELL and all have thanked me for my advice., though I only give such advice when it is made known to me that they want it. I have given guys wax, rags, you name it...b/c you know...If you don't look good, I don't look good!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />