Why not tell the score?

[Jeffrey]

Why doesn't the owner get to see his/her score after the judging? It would be a way for the owner to improve the car.

Jeff

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Jeff...Welcome to the forum.

Your query has been a hot topic over the years on this forum and beaten to death.

Simply put, these are the rules of the AACA, and, they have worked satisfactorily for many years.

If you desire to read previous discussions, hit Search in the main title block, follow the prompts, and, look under "Judging".

Regards, Peter J.

[Guest]

Hi Jeff: The reason for not revealing scores is that vehicle judging is SUBJECTIVE. No two judges see the same faults (real or imagined) in a vehicle and I am sure that the vehicle owner would never agree with the items regarded as incorrect or poorly done on his or her vehicle. Then again, imagine the time that would be required in discussing points deducted by judges with the thousands of vehicles that are judged by the AACA judges each year. The system is not perfect but it has worked well for many many years. Hope this helps.

[D Binger]

Lloyd,

Good to see you on the forum. Welcome. It has been a long time since I have seen you.

Hope to see you on here more often.

Dan Binger

[ex98thdrill]

Jeff,

I asked the same thing a year ago and you'd have thought that I poured gas on a fire. I agree with you, but I doubt you'd ever change it. The biggest thing is to go through the rulebook, research your car as to what it didn't have, and provide the documentation if the question is raised before judging. If you get the chance, go to judging school and start judging so you can see what they're looking for, what they take points for, and learn the mindset. If you can see what the judges are looking for, you can fix your car to avoid the point deduction.

[CTW]

hmmm very interesting - I learned something new today <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't want to add gas to the fire - but I guess I would have assumed - there would be guidelines for judging.. sort of like figure skating in a way - appearance - technical etc..

I'm off to look for a judges book <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy the day!

[Guest greg72monte]

I am also a member of Vintage Chevrolet Club of America (VCCA)

and they DO return the judging sheets to you with the scores.

Yes it is nice to know how well you scored, but I have found them

to be of limited usefulness. My 72 Monte Carlo has been judged 4

times by VCCA, and I have received my judging sheets back from

all but the most recent meet in August. They use a 1000 point

system, and I have consistently scored in the 982-989 range.

However, and this is a very big however, there has NEVER been

the same deduction twice! Some deductions were bogus, but

some things may have been missed, so I figure it balances out

in the end. Most car owners like me who know their cars

inside out already know where their weak points are.

Both the AACA and VCCA systems have their merit.

A little mystery keeps life interesting. I know a few

areas where my car might need attention before next

year's AGNM. These might never be seen by a judge,

but I do it for my own personal satisfaction. Being that

I drive my car to all meets, it usually needs a little

attention here & there to compete.

Greg Roser

[ex98thdrill]

Plymouth club tells you the scores and weaknesses, and their points system is 100 points for the "perfect" car.

[Amphicar BUYER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why doesn't the owner get to see his/her score after the judging? </div></div>

Jeff's question still does not have an answer. "Because the rules dictate" is not an answer. <span style="font-weight: bold">What is the reasoning behind the rule that they are not disclosed?</span> This answer will be of great help in understanding more about the rules.

[Jay Wolf]

AACA does not disclose scores so they can get judges,

AACA has a hard enough time getting people to volunteer their time and money to judge without having the judge have to worry about so and so coming after them to question why they deducted 5 points for paint or what was so wrong with trim to merit a 3 point deduction.

As a judge I would not want some unhappy car owner chasing me down to complain.

As a AACA judge I am not allowed to discuss or disclose anything about the judging of the car.

The criteria AACA judges on are in the judging manual, it is on line or you can purchase one. If you read the manual you should be able to figure out why and where you lost points or better yet attend a judging school.

If you car does not win the award you are seeking you can write the chief judge and request the area or areas that you car lost points on that kept if from winning the award..

If you car won, they will not tell you.

AACA has a very forgiving judging system as long as your car is original, it is the non original stuff that kills you in AACA.

[novaman]

I have heard there was someone upset with me after one show I judged at. The owner's wife was working administration that day and it so happened that our team captain turned in our forms to the wife. What the owner was upset over was points he thought were taken off but wasn't. I had noted two items under other and talked to my team captain about them. I took points for the one, but not the other. Both items were listed on MY worksheet, but only the one was listed on the form for the car. The worksheets and the individual car forms are turned in together. The wife apparently checked out where the points were taken. This owner was upset pretty much with everyone on the team because of the points taken in the different areas.

By not giving out the scores, you prevent some of the pettiness over a point here or there. As was pointed out before, one judge may or may not see something another judge might see and vice versa. There are owners out there that I wouldn't be surprised if they were to tar and feather a judge over a point. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Guest SalG (Sal Grenci)]

Jay, I agree. I got my 31st judges credit at Hershey. Each one has cost me several hundred $s for gas, tolls, hotel, food, etc. to get to the show. I was up 5:15 a.m. Saturday and got my cousin up to get ready and check out and get me to the Giant arena by 6:30 a.m. to be misdirected by several Herco rent a cops and then misdirected by some Hershey Region car parkers, since the program showed entry at the South East corner (rear) and everyone was directed to the front. Once inside we ate and got are marching orders and intros of big shots (breif this year). Then from about 8 to 10 I walked around looking at cars (like my feet needed more of that) and then judged. This time I got a really good group, some times you get people who take judging way to seriously. We worked and turned in our scores. I have done this at Hershey before, and several other places in the North East and Florida. AACA has lost a lot of knowledge from people who get tired of the whole thing.

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AACA has a very forgiving judging system as long as your car is original, it is the non original stuff that kills you in AACA.

</div></div>

and that is not a good thing in my opinion. Too forgiving if you ask me., why be so forgiving? This is the AACA, winning a National 1st place is supposed to mean something, if we are going to just let folks cruise right through the system, ie...if it looks original or about right, we give you the benefit of the doubt, well that doesn't seem to be helping anyone, and by the looks of some of the cars I have seen with badges...seems that happens all too often. again, just my opinion. I know the system will never change. But if you think the majority of folks are happy with this idea of...it's worked this long...I think your fooling yourself.

As far as getting score sheets back, that is a simple thing, and many clubs have been doing it for years, in the interst of helping car owners build better cars...No Score sheets or results are given until long after the show is over...as in, 1 month after the show, if a participant wants his score sheet back, it is sent to him. Usually, by this time, any hostility is long gone and owners can take a good hard look at their points lost and accept it. Yes, there are always a few cry babies, but the majority can take it as positive criticism.

Off my soap box...

MC

[novaman]

If you don't win the awrad you are going for, you can right and recieve a "copy" of your judging form. The reason I said "copy" is you don't know the point total but it show you where (catagory)the points were taken off in. With that being the case, why do you need the points taken?

What is the benefit between example A and B?

Example A:

Points taken off for:

Antenna, grill, tires, door panel, horns,hose clamp

Example B:

Antenna 1

grill 1

tires 2

door panel 2

horns 1

hose clamp 1

What did example B tell you that example A didn't?

[ex98thdrill]

Yeah that's fine, but it would be nice if you knew. The judges aren't always right, and if the owner had the documentation and the judges didn't ask, then the car owner can end up getting left high and dry.

As in our case, we got our Senior, but it would be nice if we knew our point total before we go to the AGNM. If we knew that we only scored a 376, and knew where we were short, it would be nice if we knew what we had to do to get a 385 or 395, it would be nice to know ahead of time what it would take to get those points. Even in the case where you get the award, it would be nice if you had the documentation as to what was needed to go to the next level. With things being that way, it would then inform the owner of his downfalls, leave it up to the owner to decide wether or not to fix their downfalls, and if the corrections weren't made, then there would be no one to blame but themselves if the owner went to the next meet and came home with nothing. If the car owner doesn't know, and the car is being judged wrong, then the situation doesn't change.

I still don't agree with the theory, but I honor it, I've gone to judging school, CJE, and done some judging so that I can look at things from another side of the spectrum. I doubt that things will ever change, but in the meantime the best thing to do is get involved and educate yourself.

[Jeffrey]

I was at the Hershey show and it was great. I did have an opportunity to talk to some people on what I need to better my score. I know that judging paint etc. is subjective, but I was looking to know the items that I could add/change to improve my score.

Thanks

Jeff

[ted sweet]

i can't understand how a model never built can have a senior award, I saw a 70 dodge challenger 340 R/T convertible at Hershey, that had a Senior on the grill.

There was no 340 engine in a 1970 Dodge Challenger R/T. And thr car wasn't a real R/T either.

[novaman]

ex98thdrill, it was nice to meet you in Hershey. Back to our subject. What I'm getting from your post is that your major concern is how close to the 385 - 400 range your vehicle placed. That is the only information you are not receiving in the Example A from my post. Both examples tell you where to look, neither tells you the exact problem. And the person sending you the information doesn't know what the exact problem is either.

You said "Even in the case where you get the award, it would be nice if you had the documentation as to what was needed to go to the next level." I tend to agree with you but think about it if you were the person who sent these forms to the owners. In his case he is probably working 40-hrs week, volunteering for this position and comes home after a show and now needs to send out a couple hundred copies to owners. After Hershey it would be over a thousand. Everybody would want a copy of his sheet if it weren't limited to non-winners. 8 shows next year, figure 200 per show except Hershey, 1200 there. (7*200)+1200=2600 sheets you'd possibly be sending out. You have the time copying the sheets, sorting them in some fashion to match the order of address labels, and labeling the envelopes and insert sheet and seal, if you sent all out. If you got the copy using a SASE, then the person needs to sort through all the sheets find person A copy, insert, and repeat for up to the total number of cars at the show. Would you like to receive 1200 envelopes and try to get all those sheets found, copied, and returned?

And using the "argument" of "so I can improve the car for the next show for the next award." I'm thinking about the cases like after the Fall Meet in Asheboro, NC next Sept. Two weeks later is Hershey. Even if you mass mailed everyone at the Asheboro show, the mailing would have to be done by that Saturday night for most people going to Hershey to even remotely stand a chance of receiving their copy before going to Hershey. They'd probably get it on Tuesday or Wednesday and if they are from NC, they are probably already heading northward.

I'm not try to be argumentative here, just pointing out the nightmare a volunteer would have. As it is he is slow sometimes now, from what I've heard.

[novaman]

Ted, I understand your point and I personally wouldn't like to see that car have its badges either.

I can understand how it possibly got them though. I am a judge and I am going to insert a foot here. Into my own mouth so to speak. How could you tell that it is not a real R/T? Get my point? Not all Judges know everything about every make and model of car. As a judge when we sign up for judging duties, we send in our registration form and list the 4 classes we would prefer to judge. I usually go for 26B, 26C, 26D and 27E. Classes are late 40's -early 50's and '62-'63 production cars. They are the classes I'm comfortable and knowledgeable in. I think most judges do the same thing. They'd be foolish if they didn't. When the Chief Judge gets the registrations he then assigns the judges to teams and what team will be judging what classes. Hopefully you get what you asked for. But there are times when there are too many asking for certain classes or not enough asking for others. Then the Chief judge needs to move people around to fill out all the teams.

That has happened to me several times. I've got stuck judging Model As. My knowledge of them is they have four wheels, and a horn that goes aoogha. They seem to come in brown, green, red, or black. Two other times I ended up in foreign sports cars. If it ain't a '52 MG TD, I am lost quick. In these cases I worked with my other team members. I got to do the chassis, which makes it easier not as many options down there. At breakfast I told them I was unfamiliar with these cars and need their assistance. The team captains even took a look at the chassis to assist me in trying to do an accurate job.

In the classes 26A thru D, I'm the one the team usually asks if there is any questions on a Willys, Kaiser and Fraiser. The last two models, I've had the privilege of knowing someone familiar with the "oddities" of these cars and have learned from him.

Back to the R/T, sometimes cars like that do slip through. It happens due to the fact we are judging so many different models of cars. I have friends with a 1914 Maxwell, could you accurately judge it and catch what options are right or wrong? What about another friend's 1933 Continental Beacon?

Also I've seen some cars going for their senior that you wonder how they got their junior. Lots of paint defects, trim problems and such. In talking to people knowing the car, it got the junior at a show that it rained at. In trying to quickly judge the interior to keep it dry things get missed, engine guy misses things trying to keep engine compartment dry, exterior judges sees nice slick wet surface, chassis guy most likely isn't going to get down in the mud /water any more than necessary. Things get missed there too. Hopefully in a case like that, the car won't receive its senior until the problems are corrected.

If you were to join the Judges hopefully you'd sign up to judge that class (and get it) and maybe prevent another car like it from getting through.

[ex98thdrill]

Yeah it was nice to meet you too. Had it not been for that guy being late delivering that transmission we probably wouldn't have met. We spent Tuesday through Friday afternoon with our nose to the grindstone going through the swap meet, spent Friday afternoon until dark working on the car, and then came Saturday. I understand what you're saying and I understand that Russ Fisher probably never sees the actual top of his desk, but it would be nice if we knew our downfalls. It may be a case where we're wrong and don't know it, or it can be a case where we're right, and the judges don't know it.

I know the policy, I abide by it, but I still don't agree with it. Rather than upset someone, I have made it a point to learn the system so that we can get our car better.

[Guest greg72monte]

Yes, there will always be some cars like the fake 70 Dodge 340 R/T

that slip through the system, but the vast majority of Junior and

Senior winners are legitimate. The cars owner is only fooling

himself displaying the badge of honor. I equate it to proudly

hanging a diploma on the wall knowing full well that you cheated in

school. I know when I display my Junior and Senior awards that the

car deserves it and I deserve it also. I have a conscience.

In the VCCA, no car can advance to even Junior that has the wrong

engine, or wrong paint color for the year. Examples are a 327

V-8 in a 57 Chevy, or a Nova painted Plum Crazy. Granted the VCCA

meets are smaller, and we only judge Chevrolets. When I judge a

class that I am no very familiar with, there is usually is another

judge on a nearby team that can answer any questions.

Now, can this 70 Dodge get top awards at a Mopar only,

probably NOT! There are too many Dodge experts on hand that would

pick out the problems right away.

One last possibility is that the Dodge owner is just ignorant

about his car. Maybe he was sold a bill of goods by the previous

owner (or dealer) and the proper research was not done.

Greg Roser

[Jay Wolf]

I would like to a a few more comments:.

First clones are totally acceptable in AACA as along as they are how they ?could? have come out of the factory. In AACA cars do not have to match the build sheet like they do at most ?Brand? meets. Appearance is the major factor in AACA judging not the vehicle heritage.

As far as knowing what to correct on your car, you know what your car needs, AACA judging is simple, it is taught in schools at every national event, the sheets are available. Its simple go to the school, do the apprentice judging. Honestly judge your own car and see where it needs work.

I think all judges would agree although judging seems very subjective when you get a bunch of judges together, even the pickiest and the most lenient the car will score + or ? 10 points. When I did apprentice judging I was really surprise how close we all were, no body sees it all, nobody misses it all. I was told by an instructor at the Hershey judging school that you can look at all score a car has received all over the country by different judges and the scores will all be within 5 points so the system works.

Even if you are the strictest judge of all AACA has limits on how much you can deduct. Take a door for instance it the door is there and opens and shuts, and serve it?s intended propose you can?t deduct more than 4 points for it, it can be dented and have big rust holes but you can still only deduct 4 points per door.

Even if you are the easiest judge of all if you tell your chief judge zero points on a dented door, the chief judge will correct you and subtract the needed points. So it will all even out.

If you don?t believe me go judge some cars with the AACA.

It is the best system I have seen, maybe a little lenient but a great system

[D Binger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> First clones are totally acceptable in AACA as along as they are how they ?could? have come out of the factory. </div></div>

What are you trying to say Here?

[Jay Wolf]

AACA is a simple ?visual? judging, that is it.

No looking up to see if # match.

I have asked a lot of questions at judging schools and from I have been told.

If power steering was available on your car it is acceptable, it doesn?t make any difference if your exact car came with power steering or not.

If a 283 was available in your car from the factory it is acceptable, it doesn?t make any difference if your exact car came with a 283 or not.

It you have 1954 Dodge with the battery under the floor or seat and you can not see it, it doesn?t make and difference what kind of battery it is, you can?t see it no deductions, if it is under the hood in site it has to be of the correct type.

AACA judges do not touch the car or remove any part to see another part.

Hoses, clamps, bulbs etc have to be the correct type and match; they do not have to be the correct brand.

There are no deductions for replacement parts as long as they are of the same type and material as supplied originally.

AACA judges have to judge cars they have never ever even heard of and have no way of knowing if the car came with Remy or Packard plug wires or whatever, the only thing they can base their judging on is if the plug wires on the car are of a type that were available and used during the year of that cars production.

You may not like it but that is the way the AACA judging rules were written a long time ago before the current standards of restoration were even thought of.

Remember AACA show are what they are because of the car owners willing to bring their cars to the event. Nitpicking the heck out of the owner?s cars servers nobody, not the club or the owners.

True an AACA first national or senior does not mean the car is perfect, it is not as high of an award as a first place on your Corvette at or Corvette meet, but it is not supposed to.

I would hope you would all agree that any car with a AACA first national is a great looking car.

[Ron Green]

It would be nice to think that a owner could also have some kind of integrity when it comes to showing a vehicle that has something major incorrect and he is trying to hide it. Maybe not in today's world?

My Amphicar was a do not judge at the Hershey show and several judges in my class came over to ask me why I didn't have it judged. They thought it would be a winner just by giving it a quick once around. I stated that the paint color was incorrect and the interior pattern was wrong however everything else was 100% correct.

They all said they would have never known and I stated that I would have and I could not drive around with a 1st place badge even though in this case I might have gotten away with it? Hopefully more people think like me as there is more to this club then trying to pull the wool over a judges eyes for an award that is not deserved. I have seen some pretty interesting things take place when someone was having their car judged.

Please give the hard working judges a round of applause I'm sure it can sometimes be a thankless job!

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

That was FIRST CLASS Ron, not allowing the car to be judged. Unfortunately, I doubt many, some maybe...are like you! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mike

[6219_Rules]

I second that, Ron. You are a first class act. Not many people would show that kind of integrity.

It is good to see occasionally. And I am certain it did not spoil your time at the show!

[novaman]

I wish I had known it was you Ron. I saw the car come in while I was talking to some friends I haven't seen since last Hershey. Then I totally forgot about the car and went looking around in the classes in the area I was judging. I stay away from the class I'm judging before and after the judging unless I'm team captain.

I have to agree also. It would be nice if more people looked at showing thier cars like you did.

[Ron Green]

Novaman maybe next time, Maryland in the spring? Being honest takes much less effort than being deceptive.

I think the best thing to do when showing a vehicle and you as a owner know something that could be questionable or the judge just may not know is to go speak to the team captain. This has worked for me in the past.

Don't hold him up with a lot of details just say "If you want to see the documentation on the wonderbar radio just let me know". Warning: Have documentation in hand as they will occasionally ask. But a questionable issue in your mine has just been solved. Typically we as owners know these areas and as far as the other things like hose clamps, etc take the time to talk to other owners, clubs, librarys, or just some good old information investigation.

[Restorer32]

Good advice but remember that AACA only accepts Factory Documentation...not articles about your car from Road and Track, not Tom McCahill's remembrances, not photos of your buddy's car. Factory Documentation includes owner's manuals, factory advertising, parts manuals and the like. Also remember that odd options can only hurt your score...not help it. If in doubt about the authenticity of that neat option you found leave it on the shelf until you find factory documentation that it was a factory installed or dealer installed factory authorized option.

[Jay Wolf]

It is funny were were talking about this and I found this in the AACA rummage box.

http://www.aaca.org/publications/rummagebox/2003/fall03/fall03.htm#Who%20Am%20I

if this doesn't go directly check out "Who am I?"

[Ron Green]

Restorer you are 100% correct about the factory documentation. It sometimes takes awhile to find it, but its usually out there. It doesn't always fall in your lap.

As far as the accessories go, my 55 Pontiac has 51 out of a possible 62 for the model year and has a Grand National Senior. It was shown with all of them in place however I had documentation. They were of course like new and just about every one of them has been checked by a judge, sometime twice at the different meets. I don't mine as that's their job. I have witnessed many a agruement from various owners with judges because they spent a fortune on the car but were to cheap to have some copies run off, knowing that they would be asked for proof.

[ex98thdrill]

Where I disagree with the system is when you got points deducted, you don't have the documentation, yet you don't know where the judges source of information is. If a gas tank is supposed to be painted gray and it is painted black, and points are deducted for such, it would be nice to have the documentation so that the correction can be made for the next show. Without knowing for sure, who would want to change something on the car based on someone's word.

There is an individual who lives near me who has a barn full of '34 Fords. He went to a show and got points deducted for having a black emergency brake handle. He went home, had the emergency brake handle chrome plated, then got points deducted for having a chrome plated emergency brake handle at the next show. Since then, he's never been back and states that he won't go again. If the documentation was correct, and/or provided this may have kept him actively involved.

It may have been one judge who didn't know what he/she was doing, but because the information wasn't provided to prove the judge right or wrong, this individual no longer brings his vehicles and he no longer participates.

[novaman]

Ron, I'm not sure which shows I'll make next year. I do know that I will be to Asheboro, NC in Sept. A 45 min drive for me and my Region (Alamance) will have members helping Zooland Region for the show.

As for your atitude towards judging. I could just hug you but, someone might start talking <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. I wish more onwers felt the same way.

[Jay Wolf]

Where did you get this?

"Good advice but remember that AACA only accepts Factory Documentation...not articles about your car from Road and Track, not Tom McCahill's remembrances, not photos of your buddy's car. Factory Documentation includes owner's manuals, factory advertising, parts manuals and the like."

The manual states.

"6. Judges will accept factory written proof of authenticity without question. Verbal opinion of the owner may be accepted or rejected at the team captain's discretion"

I have never been on a team that rejected any documentation, even verbal.

At evey judging school, judge?s breakfast I have been to it was said over and over

If you are not 100% sure do NOT deduct.

AACA judging is not a adversarial relationship, it is not the owner and against the judges. It is the owner?s peers try to give the owner the recognition they deserve

[Ron Green]

ex98, If you have a major deduction the team captain will speak to you about it. I had a problem in the past with tires and undercoating which one was correct and the other wrong and these issues got corrected this way. I assume your beef is if you win the award you are going after you cannot get the judging sheets that circle the areas you need to improve thus you don't know how to improve the car for its senior, grand national, etc. Again the only solution to this are that the items in question in your mind take the documentation and approach the team captain as I described above.

The guy with the 34 Ford and the brake handle problem obviously knew what was wrong, be it the judge or whatever. The easy fix would have been to show the documentation as the market should be flooded with 34 Ford paperwork. The owner needs to provide the documentation not the AACA as I am a little confused on how your post is worded.

I don't know if this is true but it seems to me when they call out the winners and there is say 4 first place juniors that win in a class, if you know the vehicles it seems that the one that scored the most points is called first. Just my observation could be wrong but it seemed to work for me in the past to see how my car stood up in the class.

Jay, I've seen some people use magazine articles and pictures before and a artist sketch and many times they indicate a color or style that was not offered for the year. They do accept them but they really need to rethink some of the non factory documentation.

[ex98thdrill]

Well I still don't agree with it, I haven't, and never will. It doesn't stop me from participating. We took a second place at a show, received the judging sheet, and were marked off for wiring. We have the wiring harness exactly as it shows in the wiring diagram, no one said anything or asked anything, and we have no clue as to what happened.

Last weekend, I saw an individual point out about rust starting to show between the leaf springs. Well no matter what is done to those leaf springs, you're going to get rust showing in between the springs. I realize "THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT WAS WHEN IT LEFT THE FACTORY" the fact of the matter is if you have leaf springs, they're going to flex as you drive it, you're going to wear off the paint when the springs flex, and it will show rust when it gets near any moisture caused when you drive it. This logic severely punishes the people who choose to drive their car rather than trailer it. We've done three complete frame off restorations ourselves. We've taken each leaf apart, blasted and painted them, put them together, and within a few months, had rust showing through in between the leafs. In two other cases, we blasted the whole spring assembly, and had no better results, yet we saved time.

Another case was where an individual told someone that the gas tank was painted the wrong color (it was gray and was supposed to be black). The owner chose to ignore the comment because he had no documentation to prove it either way, and the person saying that it was wrong had no method of proving their statement.

If the judging process gave the vehicle owner a source to refer to, then the owner can make the right corrections at a later time. At this point, all the procedure does is leaves the car owner shaking their head trying to figure out what's wrong with their vehicle, and it also questions the credibility of the judge making the deductions.

I am in favor of being judged, and I am in favor of having points deducted, but I am not in favor of the judging process being so "taboo" that it leaves the car owners shaking their heads trying to figure stuff out.

I have been to judging school, CJE, apprenticeship, I have done some judging and I have done my best to learn as much as I can. For the benefit of everyone, the judges should share their knowledge and guide the people to improve their cars.

In the case of the daily drivers, those cars are going to get dirty in areas where you can see the dirt yet can't get to it to clean it. My favorite statement is "The eye reaches farther than the hand." Despite all of the schools that are put on, common sense, or the lack of, can be damaging.

[rodlars]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, can this 70 Dodge get top awards at a Mopar only,

probably NOT! There are too many Dodge experts on hand that would

pick out the problems right away.

One last possibility is that the Dodge owner is just ignorant

about his car. Maybe he was sold a bill of goods by the previous

owner (or dealer) and the proper research was not done.</div></div>

This very same car received 1st Place - E-body Dodge Stock at the 2000 Mopar Nationals. In the owners's defense, he admits that he did in fact add the RT badging. It is a genuine Challenger convertible equipped with the 340 package. Dodge did not begin badging 340's as RT's until 1971. Even if the judge was aware of this bit of history, the point deductions would be for the unneccessary RT badges the car is wearing (grille, front fenders, trunk lid)only. Everything else on the car is quite legit. The judges at the Mopar Nats were well aware of this fact but the quality of the restoration is just too much to deny. The car is absolutely dead-on with the exception of the extra badging. While I think it is quite worthy of its national 1st and AGNM badges, it does seem a little awkward to have this particular hybrid as a national award winner (Chocolate Town, if I am not mistaken).

[rodlars]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why doesn't the owner get to see his/her score after the judging? It would be a way for the owner to improve the car.</div></div>

Or, as is most often the case, so they can include it in their Hemmings ad when it comes time to sell the car to justify the stratospheric asking price.

If a vehicle owner is reasonably knowledgeable and is perfectly honest with themselves, the point deductions wouldn't tell them anything they didn't already know. As the 34 Ford brake handle example pointed out, if I was in fact unsure of something, I would rely on information outside of the AACA judging sheet anyway. The World Series trophy isn't any bigger for the team that wins in 4 as opposed to 7 so who cares what your point total is if you recieved the award you were after.

[ex98thdrill]

In our case, we don't restore our cars to sell. As for the outrageours prices, all you had to do is walk through the swap meet last week. I saw stuff with $2,500 price tags that I wouldn't have hauled it out of the farmer's field if they paid me that much to haul it away. I've junked better stuff than what I had seen.

Not all car owners are the experts, and not all judges are experts.

Because of this, you may have instances where the judge may take points off for something that isn't wrong, and the current policy prevents the car owner from proving themselves as right. On the flip side, you may have a judge who does know the difference, and a car owner that doesn't, and because of the policy, the car owner may not be able to correct the problem.

I still say that the original poster of this topic is right. I follow the current policy, but I don't agree with it.