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My Esteemed Experienced Friends!!


R W Burgess

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This reply is to everyone. I originally was referring to local shows, but the topic keeps coming back to the National Shows, which is fine. I'm not well versed in the National shows having only attended 3 of them. I understand the point spread, but not the why. I agree with Pat that popular cars are easier to restore than rarer ones, but don't you think like Dizzy that the AACA reward is much more satisfying. Maybe the judging process needs to be changed somewhat, who's to say. I feel like this forum will have a lot to say about changes in the future as more directors understand the benefits of our instant opinion medium. As far as the point system, it works and hasn't been looked down upon by anyone I know of concerning original cars, unless they were jealous. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> When you see the AACA badge you know exactly what it means. I would like though, for owners of cars being judged at AACA Meets to know where the problem areas are a little sooner than is now possible. We keep getting more new people every year on the board. New people with new ideas. Like it or not, young people have a different way of looking at things, so we have to point them in the right direction as best we can. And, Pat, if you need a new pair of shoes, I can help with a donation. Wouldn't want you Northern boys running around barefoot, ya'll ain't use to it like us. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

"OK guys, you're typing faster than me. I can't keep up with you. As far as knowledgable judges, that's what the judges schools are for. I would hope that everyone interested in judging would always do their best to learn the most at these schools. The judges don't know it all, but the Chief Judge is pretty sharp. Sorry you don't like the system Dave@M, but you need to get more involved with the National Club and help others change it if you have better ideas. Like, Howard says, just my opinion. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> " Wayne

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Guest Indiana_Truck

This is one of the best threads I have seen in a while and I just had to say something. I think letting the owners see where the points were deducted is a very good idea because they may not know about the flaw any other way.

I am working on my "toy" because I like the way the old trucks looked back in the 20's but didn't know what I had for the first two years I had it. Now I am going to make it as close to 100% original as possible. I have had people try to talk me into putting parts on it that came from other trucks and they say "who is ever going to know?" My answer is always "I will" I thought maybe some day after I restored this truck I might run into someone else with one like it and I want mine to be right so the next guy can have a shot at restoring his "toy" and knowing that he is doing it right. I could care less about any trophy because I think it is more fun to watch people look over the truck and say they never saw one before or didn't know they even existed. I took my truck to a local 3 day show last week as a work in progress. That was the first time in about 60 years it has been out in the public eye since I have never shown it in 23 years and it sat 40 years before I found it. The show was a gas engine and antique power show and had no judging at all and I had a great time and will do it agian next year. The only thing I gained from the show other than the new peolpe I met was a guy came up to me at the end of the 3rd day and told me he had a radiator with the emblem for an Indiana Motor Truck at home and he wanted to sell it to someone that could use it. That is the kind of trophy I want to win! A find like that would make it worth putting any rare car in a show and who cares if you don't win. I would rather see a car that is not up to standards than to look at the same old car every year and nothing new.

As someone else has said before;

"just my 2 cents"

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Wayne,

I'm not dissatisfied with the judging of cars, I just am more interested in other aspects of the hobby <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> I've been around long enough to see why someone who sees judging to be the be-all and end-all of the car ownership experience would become disenfranchised from an organization by a bad experience. I'm hardly alone.

Neither of my cars even approach judging standards right now, but my TR6 is on it's way. When it gets there I'll enter it in judged shows, but I already know <span style="font-style: italic">much</span> better than to look to the judging at those shows to be <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> source of enjoyment. My car will be my trophy.

That is easier to say than it is to abide by. If we can get that idea accross better maybe this issue wouldn't cause so many migranes and engina attacks! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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Dave, You're right about people getting upset over the judging system the AACA uses, but maybe it's our fault for not educating them in the first place. The system is very complicated to me and I'm sure a newby would get very easily confused over what had occurred during the judging aspect and even more disappointed later when he didn't win anything. Does that make any sense? I know after my first and last judged AACA Meet Competition show I decided I'd rather use my Corvette as a driver than go through all the trouble and expense to restore it for competition which would make it not usable for driving for a number of years. All of us have different ideas about the way to best use and preserve their antique. Wayne

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Good post Indiana. Looking forward to seeing the truck on a showfield. It doesn't have to be complete to be in the AACA Driver class you know. The class regs reads must be 90% original. It doesn't say they'll kick you out of the show if you're missing a "few" pieces. "Don't need no stinking seats!" <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

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I would venture a guess and say that almost EVERYONE here agrees that the AACA policy in regards to not showing the OWNER of the car the judging sheet after the judging SHOULD be overturned.The OWNER is the ONE person that SHOULD see it.Let us take some steps to get this over hauled.Wait a minute let me get out my crystal ball and see if i can figure out where i lost those 12 points and my junior first.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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Guest imported_PackardV8

The JUDGEING for ORIGINALITY is an important part of the classic car world. HOWEVER, not everyone is interested in restoring to that end. Let trailer queens BE trailer queens. Why not??? They serve as an excellent benchmark for those of us that want to keep as original as possible while still maintaning a SERVICABLE vehicle. The problem i have found is that more often than not the judges are only COSMETICS judges. In many cases the best of show will only make it from trailer to showing field. A 50 mile cruise and the best of show will break down quite often before it gets out of the city limits.

The high point restorations are fine for the very wealthy and should have their own place in the classic car world. But there are some of us that actualy want to drive our cars on a 'regular' basis.

There is a need for more interactive activities. Something like a Tech and Show meet held at a race track (but NO racing) where cars can be driven, tested, parts exchanged and so-forth. THis is something that vendors might be interested in.

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You can see your judging sheet, and this has always been the case. You just can't see the number of points deducted. If you know where to look for what they are seeing you can find and fix that yourself, and you don't need to see the number of points deducted. If you have an unusual item on your car that is authentic, but you think the judges won't want to believe it is authentic, then be there at the car, call the item to the team captain's attention, and then show him that you have the PROOF of authenticity on hand. Don't wait to be asked. For example: I have a 1939 Buick SPECIAL with double sidemounts, full leather interior, and metallic blue paint, plus some of the screws are Phillips head (or as the books in 1939 say, cross head and this was the first year they were used on a Buick according to Buick literature I have). Long ago I encountered opinions by judges and many others that autos didn't have metallic paint (the color is Glacier Blue Poly and "Poly" is an old term for metallic) and I had to prove it. They didn't think a Special had sidemounts and I had to prove it. They didn't think a full leather interior was authentic and I had to prove it (it is one of many optional interiors). They didn't like the "cross-head" screws and I had to prove it. I acquired all of the genuine Buick literature, I put it out there, and and I drew attention to all of those things and proved them before the judges even got started. Now if your problem is a wavy left rear fender with orange peeled paint, you're simply going to have to do it over and that's a different kettle of fish. That famous person on this forum known to all as "Howard" said long ago that you know where every flaw is in your car and the judges have to find them, and they won't find them all, or necessarily the same ones, every time. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Once the AACA VP Class Judging, and a man with over 200 National Meets judged, it was Howard got me into judging in 1970. And also, like it or not, it was after the late Director, Sam Bailey, came up with a creditable judging procedure that AACA began to mushroom in membership and restorations started to improve past the paint brush. That is why there is today a National Award called the Sam Bailey Award. Occasionally you can be "wronged" by a judging team I suppose, but more often it goes back to your not doing all of your homework by knowing exactly what you need to do to win, even if you think some of the items may be "chicken". Nobody likes a sore loser and often times what you think they deducted for is not what they deducted for at all but some little thing you didn't read about or pay attention to in the Judges Manual or manufacturer's literature. It can be anything from dirt to grease, valve caps, hose clamps, bolts, but it can also be some faulty body straightening and/or orange peeled paint on the left rear fender. By the way, the Diamond T truck at Metropolis was actually a "Pak-Age-Car" milk delivery truck. Stutz started making these when they were almost out of business and Diamond T bought them out. Rare isn't the word for this truck, however 25 years ago there was one in a junkyard in Hanover, PA (a junkyard in the middle of town no less) and the junkyard owner used it to pile hubcaps in. I took many hubcaps from the early 30's to the late 40's out of that old delivery van. Other than the one in Metropolis and the one in the junkyard, I've only seen them in pictures. Metropolis is the adopted home of "Superman" and it was a neat town, and it was also a wonderful Meet in a beautiful park. Congratulations are in order to the Ohio River Chapter who put it on.

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PackardV8, Your responce reminds me of a Corvette car show in Northern Virginia that my wife and I went to a few years ago. As we entered the show area, someone had me turn on all of the electrical devices to make sure they worked(I hate to roll those '65 corvette light covers over!) We then had to decide what class we wanted to be in. I picked the show and shine class. As the judges came around checking out my car, they asked for the owner and proceeded to tell me about the demerits given my car for the dust in the heater air inlet cover and the "excess" wax left around the name tags on the fenders, (I always believed more is better, you know!) They did praise the interior of my car. It was a good day with many fine show Vettes in other classes, but I figured they were too picky for my "driver". About a month later I received a nice 3rd place plaque in the mail for my car which really surprised me. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I really appreciated their award and made me look at their show in a different light. Local shows are run in different ways, but you should never take the "fun" out of it, in my opinion. Of course, it was a lot of fun to blow off the BMW on the way home, too. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

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The ORIGINAL post was about a loud mouth at a LOCAL show! If the show has been running smoothly up until his arrival I see no reason to change things. On a NATIONAL level the AACA judging system works very well. There is NO quarantee that the vehicle will score exactly the same on the East Coast or at a meet on the West Coast, usind TWO DIFFERENT teams of judges. The outcome may also change if the same team swapped places and judged different areas. How many "Interior" judges can fairly judge an engine compartment? Will a 23 year old chassis judge see more chassis items than a 65 year old chassis judge on a rainy day? The reason the juding sheets ae NOT shown is becouse of the human factor of the judges. None of them look at the same exact things.

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By the way, our famous "Ole Man" Howard is moving this week into a new home and said he would not be back "up" until the weekend. Please everyone pray for him , so that he doesn't lose too many valuable items in the move. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> He also told me he was having some issues with the builder, so I told him I would have my bail bondsman on standby. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I'm looking forward to his responces when he comes back on. You'll never have to guess what Howard's opinion is. Wayne

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When I stirred this pot I didn't mean for it to get so far from the original topic. I aggree there has to be judging, and to me it's for the information and education. To others it's for the recognition or the trophy. To each his own. To me the biggest put-down is to look at someone's car, look at them and walk away shaking your head. Not much differant than not getting a judging sheet to me. Information has to be past on. You can read 12 books written on a particular car and get 12 differant opinions of what is original. Or none of the books cover the item you need to know about. We younger or less experianced people need to find our info from the source, the older owners of original cars and people that DO know, hopefully judges. Indiana Truck, take your truck to a local cruisein sometime. My neighbor and I go all the time, he's in his late 70's, I'm not. We drive in with our 20's cars and have a good time. He sits with the cars and talks 2 wheel brakes and starter-generaters all day. I even had a well known local streetrod builder tell me he never knew they used real wood for wheels. It might be a good source of info on your truck.

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You know Wayne, when you talk about grease, dust and dirt and getting points deducted, there is one thing that a sensible judge should understand...... THE EYE OFTEN REACHES FARTHER THAN WHAT THE HAND CAN REACH. If it can't be reached, it can't be cleaned. As for the judging at the local shows, I'd ignore the whiner. If he wants a trophy tell him to go back and do more work on the car, or ask that the car not be judged. Grant there may be times where justice won't be served appropriately, but then if he wants to learn more about his car and the competition, he needs to go to judging school. In the case of my father and I, we took a second at Carlisle, we both went to judging school, we both completed our apprenticeship, we attended a CJE, took our car home and did more work on the car, and we took a first place. If the individual in question doesn't want to better his car, expand his knowledge and can't accept criticism, that is no one's fault other than his own.

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The one class I think is very difficult to judge is Comp. cars. I was once at a famous concors with my MK-IV. One of the judges muttered:"There's dirt under the headlight covers." and reached for his sheets. Another judge looked at him and said: "Yeah but that dirt is from LeMans..."

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The race car classes in AACA National Events are judged by knowladgeable enthusiasts, they can tell the differance from "mint marks" and poor workmanship. One example that comes to mind is the top of an outside brake lever on an OFFY midget. The outside of the aluminum handle on top was ground flat, the result of sliding along a track on its side. The car was repaired and continued to race for several years with the ground off handle. It would have been an easy task to turn out a brand new handle during the restoration. However, this was one of many details that proved that this car was the car the owner claimed it was, since this feature showed up on all the photos taken of the car in competition after that wreck.

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Ole Man Howard is feeling a lot older after the move. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> VERY TIRED! Wayne, you can release the bailbondsman. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We are in and mostly satisfied.

Now as to the subject of this thread, there is nothing for me to add. From where I sit, it appears that there has been plenty of discussion both pro and con on the matter of judging, as well as returning score sheets. Therefore, as a now retired judge [after 34 years], I will leave the opinionating to those who will be carrying on the AACA judging process. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hvs

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