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R W Burgess

My Esteemed Experienced Friends!!

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1967. AJ Foyt/Dan Gurney 1 oa

Bruce McLaren/ Mark Donohue 4 oa

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

About 35 years ago one of the GT40 cars was in a good friends upholstery shop (Maywood, IL) getting new leather seating and electro-static application of black velvet flocking on its rollcage pipework. The car was painted a pale pearlescent yellow, no competition markings remained. It was right hand drive, 289 engine with a flock of Weber carbs. The tach was as big as a kitchen clock. The car was owned by a gentleman from Barrington, IL. I was too young to know much of what the car represented but knew it was very special. I had the fortune to sit in it when we pushed it around the shop floor but never heard it run. Later my friend commented when picked up he had a short demo ride up I290 (Eisenhauer Expy at that time) going West out of Chicago. Calculating the tach reading indicated they were in the low 170mph area momentarily , a life long thrill to remember. Stude8

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Stude, I wonder how they found enough vacant interstate in the Chicago area to stretch her legs out, so to speak! Wayne

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I spent this weekend at the Buick National Meet in Flint, MI. Since it was the Buick Centenial celebration, and too many cars were coming for the club to judge in any reasonable sense, judging was suspended for this year's National.

Largely as a result of that suspension (I believe) the mix of cars at this years National was FANTASTIC!!! It made for an attendance enjoyment factor far beyond that expected simply as a result of the number of cars present (about 2000). Many, many, many flawed (and immaculate) but interesting and endearing vehicles were there that would <span style="font-weight: bold">never</span> have come out for a simple trophy. Or wouldn't have bothered coming in order to try for a trophy they couldn't get and didn't want.

Without a doubt it made for a better show experience than <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> judged meet I've ever attended.

I think the perception among the hot rodders that our cars are nothing but untouchable trailer queens derives from (what in my view is) an over-emphasis of judging in this and other clubs. I have a good friend in Pittsburgh who has about 30 of the most accurate and immaculate antique cars I've ever seen. Nearly all would easily be Senior cars/"Gold Standard" cars/"Preservation Award" cars/etc. <span style="font-style: italic">NONE</span> of them has <span style="font-style: italic">EVER</span> been judged in <span style="font-style: italic">ANY</span> way. He doesn't need it.

I've always admired him for that. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

==========================================================

Oh, and this friend of mine, he knows a little bit about judging. In his garage you'll find proudly displayed his Pebble Beach judge's credentials.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think it is quite simple: "Go over the car with the disciplined attitude that if I can see it, the judges can see it." </div></div>

Peter, this one sticks in my craw a little. You presume here that the owner A: is the restorer, and B: sees everything with same accurate and experienced eyes that a trained judge has. This is hardly in keeping with the stated import of the judging program as a learning experience.

If you ever want to drive someone out of the hobby, annonymously hand him/her a judgement that his/her car is improper, and don't explain what or why. I've seen a lot of people walk away from this kind of experience feeling like they've been put on double-secret probation.

While usually this is just the inexperienced owner's frustrations being mis-applied, on rare occasion I've seen little reason myself to disagree with them.

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Dave, don't blow another head gasket, bud.

Let me elaborate. "If I can see it, the judges can see it" is exactly how I approached my car. Simply put, if I see a ratty looking wire, the judge can see the ratty looking wire." In lieu of having a judging sheet, this method worked very well for me.

If you want to read things into my statement, go ahead. My procedure was for advise to use seeing as we cannot access judging sheets, at least today.

Have a nice one...Peter. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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Diz, I fully agree with your statement about flawless cars should take the award, but on the same token, you STILL have to look at the car. With some of those cars out there, you won't get them flawless because they're a one of a kind vehicle, the parts aren't out there, and the restorer is forced to salvage what came on the car. Wayne has in the past asked me why we don't bring our '29 Whippet out. The reason we don't is because there are several parts of the car that are "jerry rigged." There are several things that are and aren't on that car because we couldn't find them. One such example is that we have had to put an electric fuel pump on the car so that we can get it to RUN. The car had a vacuum tank, and we haven't been able to find the right one that the car needs and without it, we can't get it to run. Now if that car were to be judged by a team that knows Model 'A's they'll pick that car apart. In the case of that car, it will never be flawless. AACA rulebook requires that vehicles be driven on the show field but without the fuel pump that can't happen, and with the mandatory 10 point deduction for the fuel pump, the car is already penalized. My father and I have taken national awards with two different vehicles, but are they flawless? NO. But in the areas where we know the faults of the car, we can't find the parts to correct what's wrong. My father and I have been walking the flea market at Hershey every fall for the better part of 25 years and we don't do it to break in our shoes. Last week a guy came to us at local car show with a taillight lense for our Whippet. The one on our car is cracked, and we've been looking for a lense since 1978, and up until two weeks ago hadn't found one. In the case of Metroplis last week, you can't expect the guys with that '39 Diamond 'T' milk truck to have it flawless when he's running against two Model 'A's. You can't open up a catalog and order whatever you need for that milk truck, where the guys with Model 'A's have the ability to open up a catalog and order replacement parts for whatever needs to be replaced. I'm not knocking the Model 'A's, but here is a case where the guys restoring the milk truck needed more skill and ingenuity to be able to restore (or salvage) that truck. That truck is nice, and it still won, but common sense should tell you (the judges) that depending on what you're restoring, you can be at a disadvantage depending on what class you're in. We all know what the judging manual and CJE's cover, but the one thing that it doesn't cover and what can't be taught is common sense. As much as I like the Model 'A's, '55 Chevys, and '65 Mustangs you can restore them to a better quality because of availability of parts. The guys with the Grahams, Overlands and Jewetts don't have that luxury. Even the guys with AMX's don't have it as easy as someone with a Chevelle.

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Peter, I believe that your way of thinking is a good one. Thats the way I look at my own car.I also don't agree with the way the 10 point spread is used. If AACA sets the standard for any level(Junior, Senior) and your car is judged at that level then I feel you should recieve the award regardless of what the other cars in your class receive.

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Wayne,

I agree with the others that said to kick the whiner out the door. Don't change for 1 sore loser.

Peter,

I too took your approach..... If I can see it on my 74 Monte Carlo, and I know it is wrong or needs fixed..... even a judge with "some exposure" to what a Monte should look like might find the same problem I saw, so I fix it!

To All,

With that being said, Let the first person raise his/her hand (or type if necessary) that is a true "expert" on a 74 Chevrolet Monte Carlo. Let's take it one step further.... this year, the 1978 Monte Carlo is permitted to be judged at our AACA National meets. Again, let the first "expert" raise his/her hand.

As a judge for the AACA, VCCA, and the NMCOA (National Monte Carlo Owners Association) I have re-inforced what I have known all along..... I'm not an expert on any car except my own!

My point is simply this: there is a place in this hobby for everyone, but only if we are all willing to accept everyone into the hobby. It shouldn't matter if it is a Grand National Senior or a work in progress. It shouldn't matter if it is a Model T or a 74 Monte Carlo. We should learn to accept and enjoy the hobby together. If you want to cry..... do it somewhere else. If you want a trophy..... great! If you don't want a trophy or to compete..... great! I have taken this approach: I can either be a part of the problem, or I can help be part of the solution to fix the problem. I prefer to help fix!

As far as seeing the scores and the judge sheets..... The VCCA does mail the actual judge sheets after the meet. I have found that typically, 1/2 of the deductions are bogus. The judge didn't know a Monte Carlo! The other deductions were..... as Peter pointed out..... even obvious to me. Thus, no real help from the judge sheets.

Last but not least: I was judging at a VCCA meet in Ohio 2 weeks ago. As I examined a fine example of a 53 Chevy, the owner saw me looking at the non factory, non dealer license plate frame with pretty red reflectors holding the plate and frame. Concerned that I might (and I did) deduct for the frame and reflectors on the front and back of the car, the owner asked if I was going to deduct for those. Trying to adhere to the rules, but not wanting to be rude to the owner, I said that I was going to discuss it with the team captain. After we completed his car and the next car, I looked back as I heard him raising a fuss with his friends about "can you believe" that they .............. as he pointed to the frame and the reflectors.

I might have missed several other legit deductions on the car simply because I'm definetely no expert on the era car. But I did know that that frame and that the reflectors didn't belong on the car.

Again, let the first expert on my car raise his/her hand.

John <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Dear Ex98thdrill,In the Early Ford V-8 Club you need X number of points to get the clubs highest award,the Dearborn Award.Does NOT matter if anybody else scores more as long as you get enough points.Last i knew the Lincoln Zephyr Club was considering the same system.I completely understand what you are saying in regards to finding GOOD parts to complete the restoration of an ORPHAN.You should be COMMENDED for saving such makes,but in the same breath YOU know what you are getting into regarding parts availability.Just because of this lack of parts does not mean any standards should be lowered.What it really means is when in fact you find all the correct parts and you receive the highest award possible, the degree of personal satisfaction will be at its HIGHEST because ONLY you know what it took to make it as it left the factory.Anybody can restore an almost flawless Ford product be it a early V-8 or a Mustang i know,i did it.I hope i have not offended anyone,just the way i see it.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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John and Diz...

You both exerted a lot of thought and time into your immediate posts above. Good job to both of you for passing it along. Pretty well explains the hobby's scenario and reality as we know it, at least on this forum.

Regards, Peter J.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Dave, don't blow another head gasket, bud. </div></div>

C'mon Peter! You know our cars only have one head gasket to blow! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But think about it for a minute. You buy a--lets say--an immacculate '74 TR6. Along comes the judging team, including your's truly. You figure your first Junior award is in the bag, you paid top dollar and you've got a fresh, well-done restoration on a car whose undercarriage is cleaner than your wife's best china. I wander by with my judge's hat, smart.gif mark down that your car has a spin-on oil filter adapter, wool carpeting instead of the correct (inferior later car) polyester, that it has the first version (darker blue tint) back-up light lenses instead of the correct middle version (light blue tint), ditto for the incorrect early car chrome trimmed turnsignal lenses instead of the later plain edged ones, and (& this is the big hit) it has the incorrect but vastly more common stainless trim rings instead of the correct brushed aluminum. (God help you if you bought a car with Coker Commanders instead of Michelins!)

You're going home empty handed, in a near perfect car. P.O.ed to no end!

Lucky for you you had a judge who was very knowledgable about your car! rolleyes.gif

Now all of that would be fine if you knew it. However, when the judging sheets and judge's comments are withheld, you (the new owner of a car you love but for which aren't yet an expert), you've got quite a task ahead of you trying to figure out exactly which pieces of your car are wrong. One that I think would make many people ask: "Why bother?".

Now the question is, where does promoting authenticity cross purposes with promoting the hobby of creating authentic cars. (Yes, it does make sense. Think about it.)

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This reply is to everyone. I originally was referring to local shows, but the topic keeps coming back to the National Shows, which is fine. I'm not well versed in the National shows having only attended 3 of them. I understand the point spread, but not the why. I agree with Pat that popular cars are easier to restore than rarer ones, but don't you think like Dizzy that the AACA reward is much more satisfying. Maybe the judging process needs to be changed somewhat, who's to say. I feel like this forum will have a lot to say about changes in the future as more directors understand the benefits of our instant opinion medium. As far as the point system, it works and hasn't been looked down upon by anyone I know of concerning original cars, unless they were jealous. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> When you see the AACA badge you know exactly what it means. I would like though, for owners of cars being judged at AACA Meets to know where the problem areas are a little sooner than is now possible. We keep getting more new people every year on the board. New people with new ideas. Like it or not, young people have a different way of looking at things, so we have to point them in the right direction as best we can. And, Pat, if you need a new pair of shoes, I can help with a donation. Wouldn't want you Northern boys running around barefoot, ya'll ain't use to it like us. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

"OK guys, you're typing faster than me. I can't keep up with you. As far as knowledgable judges, that's what the judges schools are for. I would hope that everyone interested in judging would always do their best to learn the most at these schools. The judges don't know it all, but the Chief Judge is pretty sharp. Sorry you don't like the system Dave@M, but you need to get more involved with the National Club and help others change it if you have better ideas. Like, Howard says, just my opinion. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> " Wayne

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This is one of the best threads I have seen in a while and I just had to say something. I think letting the owners see where the points were deducted is a very good idea because they may not know about the flaw any other way.

I am working on my "toy" because I like the way the old trucks looked back in the 20's but didn't know what I had for the first two years I had it. Now I am going to make it as close to 100% original as possible. I have had people try to talk me into putting parts on it that came from other trucks and they say "who is ever going to know?" My answer is always "I will" I thought maybe some day after I restored this truck I might run into someone else with one like it and I want mine to be right so the next guy can have a shot at restoring his "toy" and knowing that he is doing it right. I could care less about any trophy because I think it is more fun to watch people look over the truck and say they never saw one before or didn't know they even existed. I took my truck to a local 3 day show last week as a work in progress. That was the first time in about 60 years it has been out in the public eye since I have never shown it in 23 years and it sat 40 years before I found it. The show was a gas engine and antique power show and had no judging at all and I had a great time and will do it agian next year. The only thing I gained from the show other than the new peolpe I met was a guy came up to me at the end of the 3rd day and told me he had a radiator with the emblem for an Indiana Motor Truck at home and he wanted to sell it to someone that could use it. That is the kind of trophy I want to win! A find like that would make it worth putting any rare car in a show and who cares if you don't win. I would rather see a car that is not up to standards than to look at the same old car every year and nothing new.

As someone else has said before;

"just my 2 cents"

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Wayne,

I'm not dissatisfied with the judging of cars, I just am more interested in other aspects of the hobby <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> I've been around long enough to see why someone who sees judging to be the be-all and end-all of the car ownership experience would become disenfranchised from an organization by a bad experience. I'm hardly alone.

Neither of my cars even approach judging standards right now, but my TR6 is on it's way. When it gets there I'll enter it in judged shows, but I already know <span style="font-style: italic">much</span> better than to look to the judging at those shows to be <span style="font-style: italic">my</span> source of enjoyment. My car will be my trophy.

That is easier to say than it is to abide by. If we can get that idea accross better maybe this issue wouldn't cause so many migranes and engina attacks! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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Dave, You're right about people getting upset over the judging system the AACA uses, but maybe it's our fault for not educating them in the first place. The system is very complicated to me and I'm sure a newby would get very easily confused over what had occurred during the judging aspect and even more disappointed later when he didn't win anything. Does that make any sense? I know after my first and last judged AACA Meet Competition show I decided I'd rather use my Corvette as a driver than go through all the trouble and expense to restore it for competition which would make it not usable for driving for a number of years. All of us have different ideas about the way to best use and preserve their antique. Wayne

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Good post Indiana. Looking forward to seeing the truck on a showfield. It doesn't have to be complete to be in the AACA Driver class you know. The class regs reads must be 90% original. It doesn't say they'll kick you out of the show if you're missing a "few" pieces. "Don't need no stinking seats!" <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

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I would venture a guess and say that almost EVERYONE here agrees that the AACA policy in regards to not showing the OWNER of the car the judging sheet after the judging SHOULD be overturned.The OWNER is the ONE person that SHOULD see it.Let us take some steps to get this over hauled.Wait a minute let me get out my crystal ball and see if i can figure out where i lost those 12 points and my junior first.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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The JUDGEING for ORIGINALITY is an important part of the classic car world. HOWEVER, not everyone is interested in restoring to that end. Let trailer queens BE trailer queens. Why not??? They serve as an excellent benchmark for those of us that want to keep as original as possible while still maintaning a SERVICABLE vehicle. The problem i have found is that more often than not the judges are only COSMETICS judges. In many cases the best of show will only make it from trailer to showing field. A 50 mile cruise and the best of show will break down quite often before it gets out of the city limits.

The high point restorations are fine for the very wealthy and should have their own place in the classic car world. But there are some of us that actualy want to drive our cars on a 'regular' basis.

There is a need for more interactive activities. Something like a Tech and Show meet held at a race track (but NO racing) where cars can be driven, tested, parts exchanged and so-forth. THis is something that vendors might be interested in.

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You can see your judging sheet, and this has always been the case. You just can't see the number of points deducted. If you know where to look for what they are seeing you can find and fix that yourself, and you don't need to see the number of points deducted. If you have an unusual item on your car that is authentic, but you think the judges won't want to believe it is authentic, then be there at the car, call the item to the team captain's attention, and then show him that you have the PROOF of authenticity on hand. Don't wait to be asked. For example: I have a 1939 Buick SPECIAL with double sidemounts, full leather interior, and metallic blue paint, plus some of the screws are Phillips head (or as the books in 1939 say, cross head and this was the first year they were used on a Buick according to Buick literature I have). Long ago I encountered opinions by judges and many others that autos didn't have metallic paint (the color is Glacier Blue Poly and "Poly" is an old term for metallic) and I had to prove it. They didn't think a Special had sidemounts and I had to prove it. They didn't think a full leather interior was authentic and I had to prove it (it is one of many optional interiors). They didn't like the "cross-head" screws and I had to prove it. I acquired all of the genuine Buick literature, I put it out there, and and I drew attention to all of those things and proved them before the judges even got started. Now if your problem is a wavy left rear fender with orange peeled paint, you're simply going to have to do it over and that's a different kettle of fish. That famous person on this forum known to all as "Howard" said long ago that you know where every flaw is in your car and the judges have to find them, and they won't find them all, or necessarily the same ones, every time. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Once the AACA VP Class Judging, and a man with over 200 National Meets judged, it was Howard got me into judging in 1970. And also, like it or not, it was after the late Director, Sam Bailey, came up with a creditable judging procedure that AACA began to mushroom in membership and restorations started to improve past the paint brush. That is why there is today a National Award called the Sam Bailey Award. Occasionally you can be "wronged" by a judging team I suppose, but more often it goes back to your not doing all of your homework by knowing exactly what you need to do to win, even if you think some of the items may be "chicken". Nobody likes a sore loser and often times what you think they deducted for is not what they deducted for at all but some little thing you didn't read about or pay attention to in the Judges Manual or manufacturer's literature. It can be anything from dirt to grease, valve caps, hose clamps, bolts, but it can also be some faulty body straightening and/or orange peeled paint on the left rear fender. By the way, the Diamond T truck at Metropolis was actually a "Pak-Age-Car" milk delivery truck. Stutz started making these when they were almost out of business and Diamond T bought them out. Rare isn't the word for this truck, however 25 years ago there was one in a junkyard in Hanover, PA (a junkyard in the middle of town no less) and the junkyard owner used it to pile hubcaps in. I took many hubcaps from the early 30's to the late 40's out of that old delivery van. Other than the one in Metropolis and the one in the junkyard, I've only seen them in pictures. Metropolis is the adopted home of "Superman" and it was a neat town, and it was also a wonderful Meet in a beautiful park. Congratulations are in order to the Ohio River Chapter who put it on.

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PackardV8, Your responce reminds me of a Corvette car show in Northern Virginia that my wife and I went to a few years ago. As we entered the show area, someone had me turn on all of the electrical devices to make sure they worked(I hate to roll those '65 corvette light covers over!) We then had to decide what class we wanted to be in. I picked the show and shine class. As the judges came around checking out my car, they asked for the owner and proceeded to tell me about the demerits given my car for the dust in the heater air inlet cover and the "excess" wax left around the name tags on the fenders, (I always believed more is better, you know!) They did praise the interior of my car. It was a good day with many fine show Vettes in other classes, but I figured they were too picky for my "driver". About a month later I received a nice 3rd place plaque in the mail for my car which really surprised me. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I really appreciated their award and made me look at their show in a different light. Local shows are run in different ways, but you should never take the "fun" out of it, in my opinion. Of course, it was a lot of fun to blow off the BMW on the way home, too. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

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The ORIGINAL post was about a loud mouth at a LOCAL show! If the show has been running smoothly up until his arrival I see no reason to change things. On a NATIONAL level the AACA judging system works very well. There is NO quarantee that the vehicle will score exactly the same on the East Coast or at a meet on the West Coast, usind TWO DIFFERENT teams of judges. The outcome may also change if the same team swapped places and judged different areas. How many "Interior" judges can fairly judge an engine compartment? Will a 23 year old chassis judge see more chassis items than a 65 year old chassis judge on a rainy day? The reason the juding sheets ae NOT shown is becouse of the human factor of the judges. None of them look at the same exact things.

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