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R W Burgess

My Esteemed Experienced Friends!!

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Now that I've got your attention, my local AACA club had a proposal come up that I am pondering. We had an irate car show participant at our last show that has brought up the question of judged shows versus non-judged shows. Now, some of our members want to drop the judged portion of our show and just give out participation awards and door prizes. Isn't an AACA affliated club supposed to promote the study and education of the automobile hobby? In my opinion, you can't teach the new people without the judging system. What's your opinion and/or experience? You will be tested! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Wayne Burgess

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Wayne, this goes back to the fact that some people's egos will not allow them to accept anything less than 1st place or best of show, whether or not the car deserves it. I've seen a couple of Corvette guys actually try to steal the judging sheets and alter them so they'd get the first- in a Saturday afternoon local car show, no less, where bragging rights are all they could hope for in the first place.

I've also seen local show promoters alter scoresheets to ensure certain people got the first place. The last time that happened here I took the microphone and announced I would no longer participate or judge at that show for that reason. Pissed some people off, but it cleaned things up a bit the next year.

Judge the cars. If someone puts their car in a judged show, then they should have no quarrel with the results if the judging is done fairly. If there is obviously a problem as noted above (and had I not judged the classes in question and known what the results really were I'd have never raised me own stink) then there is a legitimate complaint that should be handled appropriately. If it's simply a case of someone's wounded ego and pride, let them lick their wounds.

And some people take a first place trophy more seriously than anything short of life and death situation should be taken... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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R.W.

I never could figure out a good reason why a car is judged? If you win what have you won? I can't believe its for a trophy? Jack

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You know Wayne, the beauty of the national judging system is that if you get beat, you can take your car back to the shop, do some more work and TRY AGAIN. Although I don't agree with walking home with nothing because of the 10 point window, if you run against the same car at every show, you'll only get beat by that car once. Peter was just telling me last night in an e-mail that he took a 2nd place twice with his Triumph, took the car back to the shop, repainted the car, and it is now an AGNM winner.

On the flip side, there will always be judges out there who will try to find fault with a car because they just don't like it. That doesn't mean that everyone does it, but I'm sure there are some diehard Ford guys out there who wouldn't find a good chevy if they had do (and the other way around). One example that I've seen was at a recent meet where a guy was talking about his '41 woodie, and we asked him if he had a Ford and his answer was "that's all there is."

Another issue that you can't rule out is rarity of the vehicle. At Metropolis last week, a guy showed up with a '39 Diamond 'T' milk truck. Fortunately he took his 1st Junior, but you can't morally look at his truck like you could the two Model 'A's in his class. Anyone with any common sense should be able to understand that the Diamond 'T' is a rare breed to where you're forced to salvage what you've got, where the Model 'A's can be almost completely rebuilt through several vendors that sell NOS and reproduction parts.

I'm not knocking on Fords because we've got 6 of them, but I've seen and heard several people present themselves with the attitude that next to a Ford there's nothing else, and there are times where it appears to reflect itself during the judging process.

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Not sure I am "esteemed" Wayne, but i'd like to add my personal two-cents worth. I wonder where the hobby would be if we did not have judging? Do you think that people would strive for the level of authenticity we have today if it were not for organizations like AACA? What would future generations understand of our history if not for judging? I think these questions have an easy answer.

SOME shows, that have a unique purpose should be non-judged. I have championed that cause on a very few instances. However, to stop judging local AACA shows because of one or two unhappy participants seems an over-reaction. I'd try to find out if the person had a legitimate gripe and try to rectify it and prevent it from happening again. On the other hand, if it was a trophy-happy car owner who does not want to accept that other cars were restored to a higher level than his, well, you probably will not win that war. All you can do is try to make the owner understand it is a hobby and that he/she has a great car, etc.

I also would hate to see people deprived of the opportunity of learning from the experience of judging. Every single time I have judged I have learned something new. Each time I have gained an appreciation for the history of the automobile, the craftmanship of our members and the extent they have gone to research their vehicles.

A good friend of mine always uses the phrase, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". I think it is apropo in this case.

As Howard would say, "just my opinion"!

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Wayne,"The squeeking wheel gets the oil" does NOT apply to this loud mouth looser. If things were running just fine before he arrived,tell him to leave and take the white horse he rode in on with him. What is your next question?

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I think this is a complex issue. First I think one should never forget to enjoy one's self and that some things are impossible to judge. There are many hidden agendas at many shows and many experts often aren't. Things do change. The car I'm taking to Pebble this year is far from pristine but it's a piece of history that proudly bears it's scars. (Photo attached #2 car)

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Dear J446, YAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I get pumped up just lookin at that photo,can you imagine the excitement in the air before the start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ,diz

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J446, Good point. As they say, just to be in the show is part of the fun. Having people see history in front of them is the other part. I was in the middle of posting a responce today when my computer locked up again. I'll call Mr. Chapman later. While I was off line, you guys answered my question or at least the point I was trying to get across. As an AACA affliated club, all of us, "I Think", should carry on with the AACA tradition of judging antique automobiles for their authenticity. We've also heard so much lately about young people in our club. It seems to me that more car shows should let kids accompany the judges during the judging process to experience the process and, more importantly, to pique their interest. Good answers guys, answers I can use to prove a point of the AACA's direction for a small local club like mine. Thanks! Now, where's Chapman? Wayne

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Wayne, I've been to your show many times and always enjoy it. Everyone does such a fine job and it's really laid back and friendly. The weather man has even been known to smile on you guys!!! Please don't change anything based on one unhappy camper. Follow AACA's lead and have a drivers class too and give everyone a special plaque or something nice. In Tidewater Region many years ago we began giving a special award of recognition for past AACA Natl prize winners so they don't compete for class awards. That opens things up a lot.

Terry

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I agree with your comment about judging cars to educate and inform the owner. But I've found 3 differant places in the AACA judging manual that specifically prohibits judges from talking to the owner or divulging scores. How can you learn what's wrong with a car if noone is allowed to explain the problems?

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nearchocolatetown:

I've read a miriad of posts on the divulgence of scores issue. I think it is quite simple: "Go over the car with the disciplined attitude that if I can see it, the judges can see it." Worked well for me with absolutely no judging problems. The main point of this rule, in my humble opinion, is all part of the hobby of correct restoration/preservation. For example: "if you attach a "widget" with some left over "wudgets" you have, thinking, heck the judges won't know the difference, then, you should get docked. Don't act surprised, as you knew it going into the show field.

To respond to your query "how do you know what to fix" is also a simple answer: "The hobby of it all". The hobby entails meeting friends (the most important aspect of the hobby), study the car's history, investigate, study, communicate on tools, such as this forum, and so on.) That's the hobby in my opinion. The judging of the AACA and other clubs is not different than back when we were in school: If your buddy received an A on a test and you received a B, did you ask him how he did it? If so, he probably told you he studied/worked harder than you.

Remember: the AACA's judging purpose/goal is as it came from the manufacturer.

Wayne:

I believe it is a judgement call of the Northern Neck Region's. Personally, I could not care less if one ego-driven person became upset and, based on this, would not even consider changing the venue due to one or two upset people.

On the other hand, I have attended many shows where just showing up is a blast. Take the Duryea Days Show put on by the Pottstown Region & the Boyertown Museum of Historical Vehicles. (2003 show is August 30th.) This show generates roughly 500 cars of all makes and models. It is highly acclaimed in the Eastern PA area for fun for family, car nuts, etc. There are, I believe, just 3 trophies given out, yet, the show grows every year.

Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Choclatetown, That would be the National AACA rulebook, but I would think that most local shows are more laid back and would associate more with the owners. I know I always speak to the owners and thank them for coming or tell them how nice their car is. At one unaffliated show last year I judged the rods as they interest me. After judging one car I noticed his door latch screws were very loose. He was happy to hear about it as they were suicide doors on a 30's Ford. Most local shows here in Virginia are using the AACA rules, but in a less strict way. Pedro, I'm like you and hate to see something change just for the sake of change. Wayne

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Peter, to use your analogy from school, it sounds like I'm supposed to know the answer before I ask the question. The only reason I personally would have a car judged would be to get someone elses opinion of my work. Without specific critisism, the point value is of no help. Many years ago, in a single marque club, I judged locally. The judges were almost always available to explain point deductions after all the judging was complete. Someone else made the statement about being educational, which I aggree with completely. I'm just saying, without the teacher reviewing the test I might always get a B. If I were only interested in a trophy, I'd go buy one.

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nearchocolatetown...you have a good point. I guess we agree to disagree.

My post above is how I accept and participate within the purpose and guidelines of the AACA.

Take care, Peter.

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Except for the obvious butthead that paid too much for his restoration and can't accept critisism and may want to go toe to toe with a judge, why aren't judging sheets given to owners? Serious question.

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Choclatetown, A friend of ours had that same problem this year. He didn't get the first place, but couldn't find out where the problem areas were because the judging sheets were sent back to Hershey. Sounds like a problem that could be addressed in the future by our directors. I wish there was a more orderly way to send our comments and concerns to Hershey like a written form to get the answers we need. Maybe one day this very forum will be the avenue we need to address such things. Sorry, I'm rambling.

"So many questions, so little time!"

Wayne

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Wayne. My father was a judge for many years. I know alot of his participation in the clubs over the years was because of his enthusiasim (sp?) to share his knowledge with anyone who wanted to learn. He was a member of his local automotive historian club as well. Automotive literture was a big importance to him too.

I was always under my fathers wing when going to shows & now as an active member in the hobby and very new to restoration - it's people like him (and I know there's many like him in the clubs) that help educate.

I think Steve mentioned something in his post about learning while judging. My father expressed the same. I remember my father telling me how it's impossible for him to know everything about "every" car at the shows - so getting out there to judge was a learning experience for him as well.

My fathers goal was to restore his cars & keep them as original as possible. He has passed that thinking on to me. So today when I go to shows - without a judging system to perhaps help me make corrections or give me a direction I wouldn't know the difference.

my 2 cents - enjoy the day all! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Dear WayneO,Sounds like your PAL got caught in the 10 point spread rule.NOT necessarily anything WRONG with his piece,just caught in a class with a car with FLAWLESS paint,chrome,interior and so forth.I cannot stress FLAWLESS enough.diz

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Idle

#2 is a 1967 Ford MK-IV. That pic is the start of the 24 Hours of LeMans. My car finished 4th it's sister car #1 finished 1st. The Ford MK-IV is the only car manufactured in America to have ever won the 24 hours of LeMans. Mine is the only survivor of that race that still runs. (The two others crashed out and the winner which is in the Henry Ford Museum no longer runs) My car will be at Pebble this year.

Best

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