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My Esteemed Experienced Friends!!


R W Burgess

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Now that I've got your attention, my local AACA club had a proposal come up that I am pondering. We had an irate car show participant at our last show that has brought up the question of judged shows versus non-judged shows. Now, some of our members want to drop the judged portion of our show and just give out participation awards and door prizes. Isn't an AACA affliated club supposed to promote the study and education of the automobile hobby? In my opinion, you can't teach the new people without the judging system. What's your opinion and/or experience? You will be tested! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Wayne Burgess

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Wayne, this goes back to the fact that some people's egos will not allow them to accept anything less than 1st place or best of show, whether or not the car deserves it. I've seen a couple of Corvette guys actually try to steal the judging sheets and alter them so they'd get the first- in a Saturday afternoon local car show, no less, where bragging rights are all they could hope for in the first place.

I've also seen local show promoters alter scoresheets to ensure certain people got the first place. The last time that happened here I took the microphone and announced I would no longer participate or judge at that show for that reason. Pissed some people off, but it cleaned things up a bit the next year.

Judge the cars. If someone puts their car in a judged show, then they should have no quarrel with the results if the judging is done fairly. If there is obviously a problem as noted above (and had I not judged the classes in question and known what the results really were I'd have never raised me own stink) then there is a legitimate complaint that should be handled appropriately. If it's simply a case of someone's wounded ego and pride, let them lick their wounds.

And some people take a first place trophy more seriously than anything short of life and death situation should be taken... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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You know Wayne, the beauty of the national judging system is that if you get beat, you can take your car back to the shop, do some more work and TRY AGAIN. Although I don't agree with walking home with nothing because of the 10 point window, if you run against the same car at every show, you'll only get beat by that car once. Peter was just telling me last night in an e-mail that he took a 2nd place twice with his Triumph, took the car back to the shop, repainted the car, and it is now an AGNM winner.

On the flip side, there will always be judges out there who will try to find fault with a car because they just don't like it. That doesn't mean that everyone does it, but I'm sure there are some diehard Ford guys out there who wouldn't find a good chevy if they had do (and the other way around). One example that I've seen was at a recent meet where a guy was talking about his '41 woodie, and we asked him if he had a Ford and his answer was "that's all there is."

Another issue that you can't rule out is rarity of the vehicle. At Metropolis last week, a guy showed up with a '39 Diamond 'T' milk truck. Fortunately he took his 1st Junior, but you can't morally look at his truck like you could the two Model 'A's in his class. Anyone with any common sense should be able to understand that the Diamond 'T' is a rare breed to where you're forced to salvage what you've got, where the Model 'A's can be almost completely rebuilt through several vendors that sell NOS and reproduction parts.

I'm not knocking on Fords because we've got 6 of them, but I've seen and heard several people present themselves with the attitude that next to a Ford there's nothing else, and there are times where it appears to reflect itself during the judging process.

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Not sure I am "esteemed" Wayne, but i'd like to add my personal two-cents worth. I wonder where the hobby would be if we did not have judging? Do you think that people would strive for the level of authenticity we have today if it were not for organizations like AACA? What would future generations understand of our history if not for judging? I think these questions have an easy answer.

SOME shows, that have a unique purpose should be non-judged. I have championed that cause on a very few instances. However, to stop judging local AACA shows because of one or two unhappy participants seems an over-reaction. I'd try to find out if the person had a legitimate gripe and try to rectify it and prevent it from happening again. On the other hand, if it was a trophy-happy car owner who does not want to accept that other cars were restored to a higher level than his, well, you probably will not win that war. All you can do is try to make the owner understand it is a hobby and that he/she has a great car, etc.

I also would hate to see people deprived of the opportunity of learning from the experience of judging. Every single time I have judged I have learned something new. Each time I have gained an appreciation for the history of the automobile, the craftmanship of our members and the extent they have gone to research their vehicles.

A good friend of mine always uses the phrase, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". I think it is apropo in this case.

As Howard would say, "just my opinion"!

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I think this is a complex issue. First I think one should never forget to enjoy one's self and that some things are impossible to judge. There are many hidden agendas at many shows and many experts often aren't. Things do change. The car I'm taking to Pebble this year is far from pristine but it's a piece of history that proudly bears it's scars. (Photo attached #2 car)

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Dear J446, YAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I get pumped up just lookin at that photo,can you imagine the excitement in the air before the start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ,diz

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J446, Good point. As they say, just to be in the show is part of the fun. Having people see history in front of them is the other part. I was in the middle of posting a responce today when my computer locked up again. I'll call Mr. Chapman later. While I was off line, you guys answered my question or at least the point I was trying to get across. As an AACA affliated club, all of us, "I Think", should carry on with the AACA tradition of judging antique automobiles for their authenticity. We've also heard so much lately about young people in our club. It seems to me that more car shows should let kids accompany the judges during the judging process to experience the process and, more importantly, to pique their interest. Good answers guys, answers I can use to prove a point of the AACA's direction for a small local club like mine. Thanks! Now, where's Chapman? Wayne

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Wayne, I've been to your show many times and always enjoy it. Everyone does such a fine job and it's really laid back and friendly. The weather man has even been known to smile on you guys!!! Please don't change anything based on one unhappy camper. Follow AACA's lead and have a drivers class too and give everyone a special plaque or something nice. In Tidewater Region many years ago we began giving a special award of recognition for past AACA Natl prize winners so they don't compete for class awards. That opens things up a lot.

Terry

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I agree with your comment about judging cars to educate and inform the owner. But I've found 3 differant places in the AACA judging manual that specifically prohibits judges from talking to the owner or divulging scores. How can you learn what's wrong with a car if noone is allowed to explain the problems?

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nearchocolatetown:

I've read a miriad of posts on the divulgence of scores issue. I think it is quite simple: "Go over the car with the disciplined attitude that if I can see it, the judges can see it." Worked well for me with absolutely no judging problems. The main point of this rule, in my humble opinion, is all part of the hobby of correct restoration/preservation. For example: "if you attach a "widget" with some left over "wudgets" you have, thinking, heck the judges won't know the difference, then, you should get docked. Don't act surprised, as you knew it going into the show field.

To respond to your query "how do you know what to fix" is also a simple answer: "The hobby of it all". The hobby entails meeting friends (the most important aspect of the hobby), study the car's history, investigate, study, communicate on tools, such as this forum, and so on.) That's the hobby in my opinion. The judging of the AACA and other clubs is not different than back when we were in school: If your buddy received an A on a test and you received a B, did you ask him how he did it? If so, he probably told you he studied/worked harder than you.

Remember: the AACA's judging purpose/goal is as it came from the manufacturer.

Wayne:

I believe it is a judgement call of the Northern Neck Region's. Personally, I could not care less if one ego-driven person became upset and, based on this, would not even consider changing the venue due to one or two upset people.

On the other hand, I have attended many shows where just showing up is a blast. Take the Duryea Days Show put on by the Pottstown Region & the Boyertown Museum of Historical Vehicles. (2003 show is August 30th.) This show generates roughly 500 cars of all makes and models. It is highly acclaimed in the Eastern PA area for fun for family, car nuts, etc. There are, I believe, just 3 trophies given out, yet, the show grows every year.

Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Choclatetown, That would be the National AACA rulebook, but I would think that most local shows are more laid back and would associate more with the owners. I know I always speak to the owners and thank them for coming or tell them how nice their car is. At one unaffliated show last year I judged the rods as they interest me. After judging one car I noticed his door latch screws were very loose. He was happy to hear about it as they were suicide doors on a 30's Ford. Most local shows here in Virginia are using the AACA rules, but in a less strict way. Pedro, I'm like you and hate to see something change just for the sake of change. Wayne

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Peter, to use your analogy from school, it sounds like I'm supposed to know the answer before I ask the question. The only reason I personally would have a car judged would be to get someone elses opinion of my work. Without specific critisism, the point value is of no help. Many years ago, in a single marque club, I judged locally. The judges were almost always available to explain point deductions after all the judging was complete. Someone else made the statement about being educational, which I aggree with completely. I'm just saying, without the teacher reviewing the test I might always get a B. If I were only interested in a trophy, I'd go buy one.

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nearchocolatetown...you have a good point. I guess we agree to disagree.

My post above is how I accept and participate within the purpose and guidelines of the AACA.

Take care, Peter.

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Choclatetown, A friend of ours had that same problem this year. He didn't get the first place, but couldn't find out where the problem areas were because the judging sheets were sent back to Hershey. Sounds like a problem that could be addressed in the future by our directors. I wish there was a more orderly way to send our comments and concerns to Hershey like a written form to get the answers we need. Maybe one day this very forum will be the avenue we need to address such things. Sorry, I'm rambling.

"So many questions, so little time!"

Wayne

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Wayne. My father was a judge for many years. I know alot of his participation in the clubs over the years was because of his enthusiasim (sp?) to share his knowledge with anyone who wanted to learn. He was a member of his local automotive historian club as well. Automotive literture was a big importance to him too.

I was always under my fathers wing when going to shows & now as an active member in the hobby and very new to restoration - it's people like him (and I know there's many like him in the clubs) that help educate.

I think Steve mentioned something in his post about learning while judging. My father expressed the same. I remember my father telling me how it's impossible for him to know everything about "every" car at the shows - so getting out there to judge was a learning experience for him as well.

My fathers goal was to restore his cars & keep them as original as possible. He has passed that thinking on to me. So today when I go to shows - without a judging system to perhaps help me make corrections or give me a direction I wouldn't know the difference.

my 2 cents - enjoy the day all! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Idle

#2 is a 1967 Ford MK-IV. That pic is the start of the 24 Hours of LeMans. My car finished 4th it's sister car #1 finished 1st. The Ford MK-IV is the only car manufactured in America to have ever won the 24 hours of LeMans. Mine is the only survivor of that race that still runs. (The two others crashed out and the winner which is in the Henry Ford Museum no longer runs) My car will be at Pebble this year.

Best

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Guest stude8

About 35 years ago one of the GT40 cars was in a good friends upholstery shop (Maywood, IL) getting new leather seating and electro-static application of black velvet flocking on its rollcage pipework. The car was painted a pale pearlescent yellow, no competition markings remained. It was right hand drive, 289 engine with a flock of Weber carbs. The tach was as big as a kitchen clock. The car was owned by a gentleman from Barrington, IL. I was too young to know much of what the car represented but knew it was very special. I had the fortune to sit in it when we pushed it around the shop floor but never heard it run. Later my friend commented when picked up he had a short demo ride up I290 (Eisenhauer Expy at that time) going West out of Chicago. Calculating the tach reading indicated they were in the low 170mph area momentarily , a life long thrill to remember. Stude8

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I spent this weekend at the Buick National Meet in Flint, MI. Since it was the Buick Centenial celebration, and too many cars were coming for the club to judge in any reasonable sense, judging was suspended for this year's National.

Largely as a result of that suspension (I believe) the mix of cars at this years National was FANTASTIC!!! It made for an attendance enjoyment factor far beyond that expected simply as a result of the number of cars present (about 2000). Many, many, many flawed (and immaculate) but interesting and endearing vehicles were there that would <span style="font-weight: bold">never</span> have come out for a simple trophy. Or wouldn't have bothered coming in order to try for a trophy they couldn't get and didn't want.

Without a doubt it made for a better show experience than <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> judged meet I've ever attended.

I think the perception among the hot rodders that our cars are nothing but untouchable trailer queens derives from (what in my view is) an over-emphasis of judging in this and other clubs. I have a good friend in Pittsburgh who has about 30 of the most accurate and immaculate antique cars I've ever seen. Nearly all would easily be Senior cars/"Gold Standard" cars/"Preservation Award" cars/etc. <span style="font-style: italic">NONE</span> of them has <span style="font-style: italic">EVER</span> been judged in <span style="font-style: italic">ANY</span> way. He doesn't need it.

I've always admired him for that. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

==========================================================

Oh, and this friend of mine, he knows a little bit about judging. In his garage you'll find proudly displayed his Pebble Beach judge's credentials.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think it is quite simple: "Go over the car with the disciplined attitude that if I can see it, the judges can see it." </div></div>

Peter, this one sticks in my craw a little. You presume here that the owner A: is the restorer, and B: sees everything with same accurate and experienced eyes that a trained judge has. This is hardly in keeping with the stated import of the judging program as a learning experience.

If you ever want to drive someone out of the hobby, annonymously hand him/her a judgement that his/her car is improper, and don't explain what or why. I've seen a lot of people walk away from this kind of experience feeling like they've been put on double-secret probation.

While usually this is just the inexperienced owner's frustrations being mis-applied, on rare occasion I've seen little reason myself to disagree with them.

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Dave, don't blow another head gasket, bud.

Let me elaborate. "If I can see it, the judges can see it" is exactly how I approached my car. Simply put, if I see a ratty looking wire, the judge can see the ratty looking wire." In lieu of having a judging sheet, this method worked very well for me.

If you want to read things into my statement, go ahead. My procedure was for advise to use seeing as we cannot access judging sheets, at least today.

Have a nice one...Peter. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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Diz, I fully agree with your statement about flawless cars should take the award, but on the same token, you STILL have to look at the car. With some of those cars out there, you won't get them flawless because they're a one of a kind vehicle, the parts aren't out there, and the restorer is forced to salvage what came on the car. Wayne has in the past asked me why we don't bring our '29 Whippet out. The reason we don't is because there are several parts of the car that are "jerry rigged." There are several things that are and aren't on that car because we couldn't find them. One such example is that we have had to put an electric fuel pump on the car so that we can get it to RUN. The car had a vacuum tank, and we haven't been able to find the right one that the car needs and without it, we can't get it to run. Now if that car were to be judged by a team that knows Model 'A's they'll pick that car apart. In the case of that car, it will never be flawless. AACA rulebook requires that vehicles be driven on the show field but without the fuel pump that can't happen, and with the mandatory 10 point deduction for the fuel pump, the car is already penalized. My father and I have taken national awards with two different vehicles, but are they flawless? NO. But in the areas where we know the faults of the car, we can't find the parts to correct what's wrong. My father and I have been walking the flea market at Hershey every fall for the better part of 25 years and we don't do it to break in our shoes. Last week a guy came to us at local car show with a taillight lense for our Whippet. The one on our car is cracked, and we've been looking for a lense since 1978, and up until two weeks ago hadn't found one. In the case of Metroplis last week, you can't expect the guys with that '39 Diamond 'T' milk truck to have it flawless when he's running against two Model 'A's. You can't open up a catalog and order whatever you need for that milk truck, where the guys with Model 'A's have the ability to open up a catalog and order replacement parts for whatever needs to be replaced. I'm not knocking the Model 'A's, but here is a case where the guys restoring the milk truck needed more skill and ingenuity to be able to restore (or salvage) that truck. That truck is nice, and it still won, but common sense should tell you (the judges) that depending on what you're restoring, you can be at a disadvantage depending on what class you're in. We all know what the judging manual and CJE's cover, but the one thing that it doesn't cover and what can't be taught is common sense. As much as I like the Model 'A's, '55 Chevys, and '65 Mustangs you can restore them to a better quality because of availability of parts. The guys with the Grahams, Overlands and Jewetts don't have that luxury. Even the guys with AMX's don't have it as easy as someone with a Chevelle.

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Peter, I believe that your way of thinking is a good one. Thats the way I look at my own car.I also don't agree with the way the 10 point spread is used. If AACA sets the standard for any level(Junior, Senior) and your car is judged at that level then I feel you should recieve the award regardless of what the other cars in your class receive.

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Guest John W. Harvey

Wayne,

I agree with the others that said to kick the whiner out the door. Don't change for 1 sore loser.

Peter,

I too took your approach..... If I can see it on my 74 Monte Carlo, and I know it is wrong or needs fixed..... even a judge with "some exposure" to what a Monte should look like might find the same problem I saw, so I fix it!

To All,

With that being said, Let the first person raise his/her hand (or type if necessary) that is a true "expert" on a 74 Chevrolet Monte Carlo. Let's take it one step further.... this year, the 1978 Monte Carlo is permitted to be judged at our AACA National meets. Again, let the first "expert" raise his/her hand.

As a judge for the AACA, VCCA, and the NMCOA (National Monte Carlo Owners Association) I have re-inforced what I have known all along..... I'm not an expert on any car except my own!

My point is simply this: there is a place in this hobby for everyone, but only if we are all willing to accept everyone into the hobby. It shouldn't matter if it is a Grand National Senior or a work in progress. It shouldn't matter if it is a Model T or a 74 Monte Carlo. We should learn to accept and enjoy the hobby together. If you want to cry..... do it somewhere else. If you want a trophy..... great! If you don't want a trophy or to compete..... great! I have taken this approach: I can either be a part of the problem, or I can help be part of the solution to fix the problem. I prefer to help fix!

As far as seeing the scores and the judge sheets..... The VCCA does mail the actual judge sheets after the meet. I have found that typically, 1/2 of the deductions are bogus. The judge didn't know a Monte Carlo! The other deductions were..... as Peter pointed out..... even obvious to me. Thus, no real help from the judge sheets.

Last but not least: I was judging at a VCCA meet in Ohio 2 weeks ago. As I examined a fine example of a 53 Chevy, the owner saw me looking at the non factory, non dealer license plate frame with pretty red reflectors holding the plate and frame. Concerned that I might (and I did) deduct for the frame and reflectors on the front and back of the car, the owner asked if I was going to deduct for those. Trying to adhere to the rules, but not wanting to be rude to the owner, I said that I was going to discuss it with the team captain. After we completed his car and the next car, I looked back as I heard him raising a fuss with his friends about "can you believe" that they .............. as he pointed to the frame and the reflectors.

I might have missed several other legit deductions on the car simply because I'm definetely no expert on the era car. But I did know that that frame and that the reflectors didn't belong on the car.

Again, let the first expert on my car raise his/her hand.

John <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Dear Ex98thdrill,In the Early Ford V-8 Club you need X number of points to get the clubs highest award,the Dearborn Award.Does NOT matter if anybody else scores more as long as you get enough points.Last i knew the Lincoln Zephyr Club was considering the same system.I completely understand what you are saying in regards to finding GOOD parts to complete the restoration of an ORPHAN.You should be COMMENDED for saving such makes,but in the same breath YOU know what you are getting into regarding parts availability.Just because of this lack of parts does not mean any standards should be lowered.What it really means is when in fact you find all the correct parts and you receive the highest award possible, the degree of personal satisfaction will be at its HIGHEST because ONLY you know what it took to make it as it left the factory.Anybody can restore an almost flawless Ford product be it a early V-8 or a Mustang i know,i did it.I hope i have not offended anyone,just the way i see it.diz <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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John and Diz...

You both exerted a lot of thought and time into your immediate posts above. Good job to both of you for passing it along. Pretty well explains the hobby's scenario and reality as we know it, at least on this forum.

Regards, Peter J.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Dave, don't blow another head gasket, bud. </div></div>

C'mon Peter! You know our cars only have one head gasket to blow! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But think about it for a minute. You buy a--lets say--an immacculate '74 TR6. Along comes the judging team, including your's truly. You figure your first Junior award is in the bag, you paid top dollar and you've got a fresh, well-done restoration on a car whose undercarriage is cleaner than your wife's best china. I wander by with my judge's hat, smart.gif mark down that your car has a spin-on oil filter adapter, wool carpeting instead of the correct (inferior later car) polyester, that it has the first version (darker blue tint) back-up light lenses instead of the correct middle version (light blue tint), ditto for the incorrect early car chrome trimmed turnsignal lenses instead of the later plain edged ones, and (& this is the big hit) it has the incorrect but vastly more common stainless trim rings instead of the correct brushed aluminum. (God help you if you bought a car with Coker Commanders instead of Michelins!)

You're going home empty handed, in a near perfect car. P.O.ed to no end!

Lucky for you you had a judge who was very knowledgable about your car! rolleyes.gif

Now all of that would be fine if you knew it. However, when the judging sheets and judge's comments are withheld, you (the new owner of a car you love but for which aren't yet an expert), you've got quite a task ahead of you trying to figure out exactly which pieces of your car are wrong. One that I think would make many people ask: "Why bother?".

Now the question is, where does promoting authenticity cross purposes with promoting the hobby of creating authentic cars. (Yes, it does make sense. Think about it.)

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