1940 Straight 6 Vs 1937 6

[MccJoseph]

Hello,

I am looking for a little guidance here. I have a 1940 Packard 110 which I purchased from a fellow AACA member. The car has sat for years and was disassembled for a new valve seat. We pulled the engine for the machine shop and they have informed me the crack is creeping down the side of the cylinder. They recommend we find another block or engine. Another friend has offered me 2 1937 engines/blocks which are straight 6 engines. Would these work in my 1940 110? What issues would I encounter, and has someone else ran into this issue? Is this a straight forward replacement? Any insight would be appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[edinmass]

Installing valve seats is a BAD idea anyways. I am not an expert, but I will PM you a phone number of someone who is. Best, Ed

[Packard enthus.]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Installing valve seats is a BAD idea anyways. 

I disagree - may I inquire?  Specifics & details on why you think that?

 

In preparation for the "no lead" gas issue, I had my valves "stellited" and hard seats put in,  as part of a general overhaul some 50 years ago.  So far....so good.    

 

Oh - by the way....may I also inquire as to what the "hardened valve seat" issue has to do with the  "cracked block" issue the initial poster is asking about ??

[edinmass]

Almost all engines built and designed before the war were designed for fuel with no lead. Almost all L head engines of the era expand more than what most people realize from heat, pressing in seats without pinning them will tend to allow the pressed seats to come out under high load and temperatures. Why risk a block with all the unnecessary machining. 95% of all pre-war cars will never see 500 miles a year. There is no valve seat issues. It’s like people who convert to 12 volts. It’s an unnecessary solution looking for a problem that doesn’t exist.  I can’t tell you how many engines have been through my hands where people have put hardened valve seats in them and they’re falling out. There are many people here who have experienced this issue. The engineering in the 20s and 30s was fine as was the metallurgy. Today people spin the small motors faster and they run them hotter and it’s just begging the valve seat to pop out. I have never seen any issue with any early engine regarding valve seats unless it was rust. 
 

The V12 Packard engine pictured above, was designed for fuel with no lead. It’s totally unnecessary to put hardened seats in it.

 

Edited November 19 by edinmass (see edit history)

[flackmaster]

consultation provided.  Minor differences, net of which is to go for it, use the 40 rods/bearings, note the waterpump difference, decide which distributor to run, minor differences in exhaust manifold studs/mounting, , bore match the 40 pistons if desired, or use everything 37 except 40 rods/bearings....

 

 

 

[edinmass]

I knew I sent him to the right guy!

[Packard enthus.]

On 11/18/2024 at 6:03 PM, edinmass said:

 

The V12 Packard engine pictured above, was designed for fuel with no lead. It’s totally unnecessary to put hardened seats in it.

 

I did not sit in  at East Grand Ave, during the design phase for the Packard Twelve, so I cannot comment.  Perhaps Edinmass was.....but if so, he must have fallen asleep during the discussion as to how common the use of tetraethyl lead had become in automotive and aircraft fuels by that time.

 

I do agree with that poster to this extent - generally speaking, given the limited use and stress most old car buffs subject their "pride and" joy to, hardened seats are a waste of money.  And yes - of course he is right that if not properly installed, they most certainly could pop out.   (old-timers....(REALLY "OLD" timers will recognize the name of the shop where (so many years ago...!)  yours truly is posing with the "lifter blocks" of my own Packard Twelve.    As a side-note, somewhere I have a technical paper explaining that Packard Twelve blocks were much "hardeer" than the industry standard because of their higher nickel content, further confirming Edinmass is correct - probably unnecessary even the way I have beat up my Twelve these last 69 years.....!

 

But Edinmass has made two errors in his response - First, he did not tell us how he feels this discussion about hardened seats is relevant to what the initial poster is concerned about -  (a cracked block).   Secondly, his assumption as to the way old car buffs drive their cars is relevant to the way I have done and continue to do.   Not applicable in my case.  What is applicable, is the old saying "drive it like you stole it"...!

Edited November 20 by Packard enthus. (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

[kar3516]

I’m with @Matt Harwood.  Sometimes I wish for a thumbs down emoji…especially for those that live in a fantasy world of their own imagination 

[edinmass]

I have read the Packard 12 engine design was outsourced to some company in Pennsylvania in late 1930, but I do not know it for a fact. The first lead additive's were developed in the mid 20’s but didn’t see across the board common use till higher compression engines were coming along by the mid to late 30’s. As far as how to fix the block……..I put the original poster in contact with somebody who immediately answered all his questions by phone. And I absolutely stand by not installing pressed in seats with or without pins in the block in any pre war car as preventative maintenance. I have delt with more than a dozen pre war engines that needed to be trashed because of the valve seats popping out……stright eight L heads are particularly susceptible to issues with the extreme expansion of the block from just normal heat cycles. My experience is limited to fifty years and literally countless miles in pre war cars. I have no issues using modern valve blanks in early applications. I also have no issues with and regularly install new valve guide in every engine I build. And as to the matter of swapping over from babbit to inserts……I have found it not necessary, and often the modifications to the crank to make the change can cause a host of other issues. 
 

I respect the fact you have had you Packard for almost 70 years! Impressive! I expect you probably drive your car harder than 99 percent of most enthusiasts. I agree Packard blocks had great metallurgy……..as did Pierce. The other companies I’m not so sure about! I would also add that today very few engine shops have experienced people in them compared to twenty and thirty years ago…….most rebuilt heads and short blocks are coming out of third world countries with low labor costs and less environmental rules. Jasper engines, which I believe is still the largest seller of remanufactured engines in the USA, has an acceptable failure rate that would scare the hell out of you. Weather it’s workmanship or poor parts & quality control, I have no idea. 
 

We could also talk about stitching the block………or why it’s not a good idea to weld it……but that’s another topic.

 

Good debate from all sides is a positive thing……..and I always encourage it.

Edited November 20 by edinmass (see edit history)

[tom_in_nh]

To MccJoseph:

 

Your best bet for interchange information would be to join the Packard group at Packardinfo.com

 

Good luck, 

Tom

 

 

[flackmaster]

Oh, and one more comment, should have mentioned earlier....use the 40 bellhousing as the pivot point for the clutch mechanism is slightly different.  Are you on track to proceed?  Any more questions?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

@flackmaster - will keep this on the OP thread since it relates to the 40 6 - what do you know about a possible distributor drive/shaft slot size change for 40?  I bought and returned a rebuilt 40 dist. Since the slot was too small for it to slide in place.  Not sure how clear this puc is but any knowledge you can share here would be great.  

 

Also still need to do my wipers!  We should chat..