Stolen classic cars.

[Xander Wildeisen]

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7336571

[zepher]

Sounds like all those that were defrauded need to sue the perpetrators and collect anything they can.

I doubt they will get their full monies back but at least they should get something.

[ted sweet]

the ones who comiited the crime will go to jail and have no way to pay anyone

[George Cole]

And as is the case with most lawsuits, the only ones who will benefit will be the lawyers.

[arcticbuicks]

Lawsuits are quite less common in Canada than the USA litigious culture,and in some cases where you can sue in the USA ....you cannot sue in Canada,I am not saying in this case in particular,just that it seems everybody sues for everything in USA .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[R Walling]

 I would think that the dealer that had the cars returned to him should offer them to the people that restored them at what was the value at the time of theft.

[Hemi Joel]

Where I live in Minnesota, dealers have to be licensed and there is a bond or a recovery fund required. Since the thief was a dealer, can the victims make a claim against a bond or a recovery fund? Or don't they have that in Canada?

[60FlatTop]

I just read the article but I know I am going to read it at least two more times, especially where the word "error" shows up.

 

I know I keep harping on the same old thing- the importance of continuity in the hobby through life. Being a post High School car nut returning to the hobby in one's golden years is a common backdrop to stories of legal as well as mechanical disappointments in the old car hobby.

[kgreen]

3 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

Lawsuits are quite less common in Canada than the USA litigious culture,and in some cases where you can sue in the USA ....you cannot sue in Canada,I am not saying in this case in particular,just that it seems everybody sues for everything in USA .

 

 

 

 

 

 

The routine is to file a lawsuit knowing the insurance company will settle before going to court.  That’s what fuels many lawsuits in this country.  This in turn drives up insurance costs, too. 

[Dodge55Royal]

That's ridiculous. I sure am glad that I don't live in Canada....

[Matt Harwood]

The article was confusing as hell and doesn't really explain what happened or why the cars were taken without recourse. There's a dealership involved in there somehow, but I'm not sure how you don't notice that your business partner is quietly selling all your inventory and not paying you. Then the article made it sound like the DMV "accidentally" placed all these repossessed cars back in the dealership's name. Perhaps most confusing was that the dealership decided they would just sell all these cars that just ended up in their name without asking any questions.

 

No, the worst crime here is the reporter focusing on the "look at these poor victims" part rather than getting the facts straight. Obviously there were shenanigans, but the article isn't particularly clear on the specifics.

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

No, the worst crime here is the reporter focusing on the "look at these poor victims" part rather than getting the facts straight. Obviously there were shenanigans, but the article isn't particularly clear on the specifics.

 

When a reporter or "journalist" needs a bag of groceries there is no telling what will spew forth. Marketing science will continue to prove "Good news doesn't sell."

[playswithbrass]

You can find Grogans Classics on a web search. You can see the stock at the Watford, Ont location.  I would suspect that there is more to come on this saga

Edited Tuesday at 05:38 PM by playswithbrass
Better word (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

The article was confusing as hell and doesn't really explain what happened or why the cars were taken without recourse. There's a dealership involved in there somehow, but I'm not sure how you don't notice that your business partner is quietly selling all your inventory and not paying you. Then the article made it sound like the DMV "accidentally" placed all these repossessed cars back in the dealership's name. Perhaps most confusing was that the dealership decided they would just sell all these cars that just ended up in their name without asking any questions.

 

No, the worst crime here is the reporter focusing on the "look at these poor victims" part rather than getting the facts straight. Obviously there were shenanigans, but the article isn't particularly clear on the specifics.

 

[Ed Luddy]

4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

The article was confusing as hell and doesn't really explain what happened or why the cars were taken without recourse. There's a dealership involved in there somehow, but I'm not sure how you don't notice that your business partner is quietly selling all your inventory and not paying you. Then the article made it sound like the DMV "accidentally" placed all these repossessed cars back in the dealership's name. Perhaps most confusing was that the dealership decided they would just sell all these cars that just ended up in their name without asking any questions.

 

No, the worst crime here is the reporter focusing on the "look at these poor victims" part rather than getting the facts straight. Obviously there were shenanigans, but the article isn't particularly clear on the specifics.

I'm familiar with this case. A whole lot of fraud going on, lot of old car people are out of their bought and paid for cars and the thieve's are out on bail still actively engaged in shady dealings. The CBC report is as usual not very clear or detailed. The dealership involved seems  have dirty hands as well,nothing proven yet. But they are trying to keep a lid on it and have a lot to answer for. They are firing off letters from lawyers trying to intimidate the victims. If you go on the Kijiji Ontario website, go to Classic Cars and usually the 1st ad's at the top are from this dealership. Easy to spot. The most outrageous prices for ho hum cars listed in the province. Steer clear!

[60FlatTop]

About 200 old cars stolen by a business partner over a 4.5 year period.

 

I can't help but be entertained by statements like that. Back in the 1980s I had a neighbor offer me a deal that had the same flavor. I think he was projecting his personality on me.

 

"So when did you first notice your partner was stealing one car a week from you?"

[Xander Wildeisen]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

"So when did you first notice your partner was stealing one car a week from you?"

Once 165 cars were unaccounted for, I started to grow suspicious.🤔

[arcticbuicks]

In my province  there has been similar small scale stolen ownerships.....in most of Canada like my province ....the so called title as Americans would call it .....in my province the title and registration is a combined or one only paper .....it is the vehicle registration paper that is signed by you and kept in the glove box in case you are pulled over to show as your licence registration  ....on the back you can sign it over to buyer when selling....there is no separate title paper....in the USA would you leave your title in the glove box ? .....I think NO.....many people have brought up this topic over the years in Canada ........

 

If someone with ill intent has easy access to your glove box they can copy your registration,forge signature which is easy as you have signed the front side .... and go and get a new ownership in their name even without licencing the car ....... anytime later you may go to sell it .....or after time passes the illegal owner claims it stolen or that it is his ......and all the while you have been just paying the yearly renewal registration fee.

 

I think the illegal owner let's time go by so that it is more difficult to prove or even statute of limitations time .

 

In the province of Manitoba in 1995 they brought in a TOD transfer of ownership document which is a combined ownership licence registration .......and they actually had the word TITLE on the first ones.......I think issues were raised and people tried to sue the province one only Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the cars having liens on them......I think the word TITLE was later removed........and good luck suing a crown corporation controlled by the government lol.

 

There is no separate paperwork .....the one TOD paper  here contains the registration for the car with licence plate number of the car ,the amout of insurance you choose to have on that one car ,deductable,and its the ownership like a title .......with transfer of ownership to be signed on the backside.........all on a single paper.........you can also 'set up ownership' when you buy a car and get this same paper......and not licence the car ......and it will say "no registration " across it........also if you lose the paper....no problem ....a copy is good enough or just go pay $15 to get another one .

 

In Manitoba you can be hit in your car......injured ,killed, car wrecked etc..... by a drunk driver even with no drivers licence ........and you CANNOT sue the drunk driver.........but you are fully covered by your insurance with Manitoba Public Insurance.........this way....you are covered for ambulance ,loss of income ,vehicle,all costs covered instantly[medical is free anyways].....without having to sue the drunk driver.......the insurance company then goes after the drunk driver..........how is that for crazy ?........and it is called "No Fault Insurance rules"

Edited Wednesday at 02:28 AM by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

I am trying to find a old ownership registration paper I have .....to post........I bought a 34 pontiac 2 door in Saskatchewan years ago with old registration papers in the glovebox still...... and funny........the farm licence  registration  has   

year- 1934

make- Pontiac

NO-model space.......just the Pontiac for make

owner -jonh doe

address-Regina 

province -Saskatchewan

 

the funny thing is for this legal ownership registration official government issued paper in the 1930s........it has NO serial number spot to fill out LOL.........so if John Doe got pulled over back then the police would ask for registration ......and see John Doe of Regina and not even his home address has a 1934 Pontiac registered........and the cop ......" yup looks good ....have a nice day eh "..........pretty honest trusting times back then 

 

[1912Staver]

Here in British Columbia you have to transfer ownership at an Autoplan agent { Autoplan is British Columbia's provincial insurance / registration organization }. Buyer and seller both have to fill out their sections of a " transfer form " This document is provided from Autoplan agent offices.  And in order to process the transfer  you must provide proper identification ( drivers licence plus secondary I.D. } Pretty hard to pull a fast one.

[zepher]

35 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Here in British Columbia you have to transfer ownership at an Autoplan agent { Autoplan is British Columbia's provincial insurance / registration organization }. Buyer and seller both have to fill out their sections of a " transfer form " This document is provided from Autoplan agent offices.  And in order to process the transfer  you must provide proper identification ( drivers licence plus secondary I.D. } Pretty hard to pull a fast one.

The problem is the titles were illegally transferred in the first place.

The thief had a fraudulently obtained legal title.

Don't know how a govt office would catch that when a different govt office issued the title 

 

[arcticbuicks]

Its easier in some provinces ,like Manitoba ....i just sign the back of my registration/ownership document and write a bill of sale no witness and off the guy goes with my papers to get his own at a branch........and there is not just one copy of ownership......everytime i pay a insurance licence  registration payment i get a new one ......so for my 2018 dodge 3500.......i pay payment 4 times a year since new......i have maybe 15 or more registration papers......and each one is considered a title when selling......so basically i have 15 copies of the title for the truck......unless i throw them out and just keep up to date one......and i can grab any one of the old ones and sell the truck with it......dosnt have to be the latest one lol.

 

prior to 1995 ....in Manitoba and similar in other provinces ,there was no paperwork of any kind needed,no registration needed,no title ,absolutely nothing...........write a bill of sale on a piece of toilet paper and off the buyer goes to licence the car in thier name .....done.... final.......they own it if licenced in thier name.

 

I bought many USA cars in the 1980 and into 1990s......and had all my USA titles and registration for each car all perfect ......I would walk in to licence the car in Canada ......and the agent threw all the US titles registration etc in the garbage ....."dont need all that .....just the border import paper ....your good to go "

 

so you can see how easy it is for a criminal to do something and sometimes without you knowing .......for a long time

 

And now to make it really fun......liens......there is no conection of a lien to a ownership registration paper [which is considered the title in Canada] for the most part.

However most new cars sold and financed will have you and the finance company listed as the owners  on the registration paper in the glovebox until it is paid off,then the finance company will drop thier name from your registration paper.

Edited Wednesday at 05:43 AM by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

15 hours ago, zepher said:

The problem is the titles were illegally transferred in the first place.

The thief had a fraudulently obtained legal title.

Don't know how a govt office would catch that when a different govt office issued the title 

 

It's all done via computer link to a central data base.  Drivers licence numbers of both buyer and seller must be provided. British Columbia has records of vehicle ownership going back a very long time. And it all has to jive with the computer record before the transfer of ownership can procede. 

 I suppose there are ways around this for someone with criminal intent, but not easy. 

 

Also, like everywhere in Canada we don't use Titles. Registration documents. But in some ways more fool proof , at least where vintage cars are concerned. All the important facts of ownership of a given vehicle are in the central data base. Not a simple piece of paper that is easily lost.

 

Car theft is a serious problem in Canada, but it seems it generally takes 3 forms.

 

A, Late model cars and trucks stolen and broken down for parts. The typical" chop shop " sort of operation.

B, Cars and trucks stolen to use for criminal purposes. Smash and grab break ins, drive by shootings and similar.

C, High end vehicles stolen and removed from Canada . International theft and resale gangs.

 Relatively few attempts to steal cars and resell them as used cars within British Columbia. Its not impossible, but given the checks and balances of our registration system it seems to be too easy to get caught. If you are looking for quick, close to risk free money the " chop shop " method looks to be the strongest contender.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:03 PM by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

yes true if the vehicle is in the central data base after a certain year approx 1995 ,which i imagine these were .......still many thousands of unrestored and old collections where the cars have not yet been entered or having been licenced after 1995 approx to be in the central data base .

[1912Staver]

6 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

yes true if the vehicle is in the central data base after a certain year approx 1995 ,which i imagine these were .......still many thousands of unrestored and old collections where the cars have not yet been entered or having been licenced after 1995 approx to be in the central data base .

B.C. at least has records back to 1932. For registrations last updated / transfered many years ago they have to do a manual search and the customer sometimes has to wait a few days before the transfer can be processed. But I have transfered vehicles last registered in the late 1960's into my name without delay. 

 Manitoba will of course be different. 

Edited Wednesday at 07:10 PM by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

That's good for that province ,here in Manitoba only goes back to 1995,if anyone has a car not in the system and no old registration ,you can pay $50 . For a search ,and if the car dosnt show up owned since 1995 or licenced .....then you get a registration in your name with bill of sale only and or old registration ,in about 10 minutes ,with ID of course so they can after you later if fraud ,Saskatchewan is fairly easy also but I do not know exact details to post correctly

[1912Staver]

For all those cars sitting for decades in remote areas this sounds like a good thing. If we had a Title system, similar to what is in most of the U.S. most of these cars would be parts cars only. At least in Manitoba there is hope some of them might see the road again.

[arcticbuicks]

Yes good point ,the cars are not doomed with no title....I think Saskatchewan and Alberta are quite similar also...and good provinces with car finds.