How much kingpin free play is acceptable on a 1957 Pontiac

[Zeb]

Hi, I have seen conflicting info on the net regarding with how much kingpin free play is acceptable. 

Can anyone clarify what is acceptable please? 

[Pete O]

I don't know about Pontiacs, but on my Model As, there should be no appreciable movement in the king pins when you jack the wheel off the ground, and grab the top and bottom of the tire, and try to rock it in and out.

[c49er]

As above...

[Zeb]

Thanks for the quick replies, much appreciated 🙂

[Bloo]

Adjust your wheel bearings if necessary so you can tell the difference between kingpin slop and wheel bearing slop. Assuming it has New Departure ball bearings like most or probably all GM cars of the period, here is the procedure.

 

https://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/1952sbb/52bb12.htm

 

 

[mobileparts]

If you need or want the Front Inner and Outer Wheel Bearings & Seals —- I have

*** N.O.S. *** U.S.A. made *** for you…..

Craig…..

[TTR]

On 9/28/2024 at 5:40 AM, Zeb said:

Hi, I have seen conflicting info on the net regarding with how much kingpin free play is acceptable. 

Can anyone clarify what is acceptable please? 

What does your factory service/shop manual says ?

If you don't have one, it would be smart to obtain a (OEM or reprint) copy and always consult it before looking for any technical advice or information on the net or forums within it to alleviate or prevent chances of hearing/reading/seeing conflicting info.

 

 

Edited September 29 by TTR (see edit history)

[trimacar]

If there's any doubt, rebuild it. 

 

"It's good enough" will just lead to poor driving experience, and too many cars are not fully restored nor operationally correct because "it's good enough" was stated.

 

I've been guilty of it too, but one needs to know better!

[Rusty_OToole]

How we used to check front ends. Jack up with a jack in the middle of the crossmember. Slide a 2X4 under each front tire, lift up, and try to move it from side to side. Look for any movement in the ball joints or king pins and spindle supports. There should be no movement at all. Works best if you have one person moving the tire and another watching for movement. Tie rod ends, and other parts of the steering mechanism can be checked by having one person work the steering wheel back and forth while the other looks for loose movement. Also you can check tie rods by grabbing and shaking them.

[Zeb]

9 hours ago, Bloo said:

Adjust your wheel bearings if necessary so you can tell the difference between kingpin slop and wheel bearing slop. Assuming it has New Departure ball bearings like most or probably all GM cars of the period, here is the procedure.

 

https://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/1952sbb/52bb12.htm

 

 

Thanks, I take it the old method of having someone apply the footbrake to eliminate wheel bearing play will work on this set up as well?

3 hours ago, mobileparts said:

If you need or want the Front Inner and Outer Wheel Bearings & Seals —- I have

*** N.O.S. *** U.S.A. made *** for you…..

Craig…..

Thanks Craig, the guy I bought the car from gave me some spare bearing seals along with many other items. I appreciate the offer though.

3 hours ago, TTR said:

What does your factory service/shop manual says ?

If you don't have one, it would be smart to obtain a (OEM or reprint) copy and always consult it before looking for any technical advice or information on the net or forums within it to alleviate or prevent chances of hearing/reading/seeing conflicting info.

Good call, I'm on the case with obtaining a service/shop manual. I figured I would reach out to the knowledgeable members on this site in the mean time.

3 hours ago, TTR said:

 

 

 

Edited September 29 by Zeb (see edit history)

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, Zeb said:

Thanks, I take it the old method of having someone apply the footbrake to eliminate wheel bearing play will work on this set up as well?

Probably. You can also feel along the edge of the brake drum vs the backing plate to see if any movement is happening there. Depending on the situation, that might need a third hand. If adjusted properly the ball bearings your Pontiac most likely uses shouldn't have play. Cars with Timkens and drum brakes might normally have a tiny bit of play.

 

Most kingpin cars will show slop easily whether the suspension is loaded or not, so tires off the ground is good enough. Rusty's method is technically better because it accounts for any outliers.

 

Kingpins don't last, and have the weight of the car squeezing the grease out. If you are under there, give them a squirt of grease, even if its not time for a grease job yet. It's better if the wheels are off of the ground.

 

[TTR]

12 hours ago, Bloo said:

… New Departure …

 

58 minutes ago, Bloo said:

… Timkens …

???

I have always been under the impression that “New Departure” & “Timken” are/were bearing manufacturing brands, not any specific type of bearings or is this some conflicting information OP is referring to  ?

 

 

Edited September 29 by TTR (see edit history)

[Bloo]

You are correct, they are just brands, but the terminology is historic. New Departure was originally primarily a ball bearing company, and Timken was known for their tapered roller bearings. Timken probably either invented tapered roller bearings, or had the US patent, or both. I don't know. Tapered roller bearings still get referred to as "Timkens" even though today they could have come from any bearing company. it's kind of like "Kleenex".

 

New Departure were a ball bearing company originally, Ball bearings (and bicycle brakes) are what they were known for. As far as I know, the name didn't get Kleenexed like Timken, they were just called ball bearings. Nevertheless, GM used ball-type front wheel bearings far longer than anyone else in the US (through 1960 I think?). It is because GM owned New Departure, and that's where they were getting all the bearings. The 1952 setup instructions from New Departure I linked above should be valid for any of those pre-61 (or so) GM cars with ball bearings, because even if the ball bearings in use are some other brand, the whole wheel bearing and spindle setup is a GM/New Departure design.

 

For completeness, a "Hyatt bearing" is a straight roller bearing. Gm also owned Hyatt, and by the 1950s or so had rolled them into New Departure as "NDH". A modern example of a "Hyatt bearing" is the rear wheel bearing used on GM rear axles, straight rollers in a cage running either directly on the axle or on a straight race. Torrington on the other hand were mainly known for their needle bearings, which I am pretty sure they invented. They were also known for bicycle parts. A "Torrington bearing" usually means a thrust washer with needle bearings embedded in it radially. "Torrington bearings" were used a lot in automatic transmissions.

 

 

Edited September 29 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Zeb]

2 hours ago, Bloo said:

Probably. You can also feel along the edge of the brake drum vs the backing plate to see if any movement is happening there. Depending on the situation, that might need a third hand. If adjusted properly the ball bearings your Pontiac most likely uses shouldn't have play. Cars with Timkens and drum brakes might normally have a tiny bit of play.

 

Most kingpin cars will show slop easily whether the suspension is loaded or not, so tires off the ground is good enough. Rusty's method is technically better because it accounts for any outliers.

 

Kingpins don't last, and have the weight of the car squeezing the grease out. If you are under there, give them a squirt of grease, even if its not time for a grease job yet. It's better if the wheels are off of the ground.

 

I have already had the wheels off the ground and felt a small amount of movement in both kingpins, hence my op. They did indeed need a shot of grease so while I was under there I gave everything with a grease nipple a shot. My car has had a disc brake conversions along with a dual circuit master cylinder and I used the footbrake method to isolate any wheel bearing play. Its the first car I have ever owned with kingpins hence my question regarding free movement tolerance. Many thanks for the advice.

[TTR]

On 9/29/2024 at 4:18 PM, Bloo said:

You are correct, they are just brands, but the terminology is historic. New Departure was originally primarily a ball bearing company, and Timken was known for their tapered roller bearings. Timken probably either invented tapered roller bearings, or had the US patent, or both. I don't know. Tapered roller bearings still get referred to as "Timkens" even though today they could have come from any bearing company. it's kind of like "Kleenex".

 

New Departure were a ball bearing company originally, Ball bearings (and bicycle brakes) are what they were known for. As far as I know, the name didn't get Kleenexed like Timken, they were just called ball bearings. Nevertheless, GM used ball-type front wheel bearings far longer than anyone else in the US (through 1960 I think?). It is because GM owned New Departure, and that's where they were getting all the bearings. The 1952 setup instructions from New Departure I linked above should be valid for any of those pre-61 (or so) GM cars with ball bearings, because even if the ball bearings in use are some other brand, the whole wheel bearing and spindle setup is a GM/New Departure design.

 

For completeness, a "Hyatt bearing" is a straight roller bearing. Gm also owned Hyatt, and by the 1950s or so had rolled them into New Departure as "NDH". A modern example of a "Hyatt bearing" is the rear wheel bearing used on GM rear axles, straight rollers in a cage running either directly on the axle or on a straight race. Torrington on the other hand were mainly known for their needle bearings, which I am pretty sure they invented. They were also known for bicycle parts. A "Torrington bearing" usually means a thrust washer with needle bearings embedded in it radially. "Torrington bearings" were used a lot in automatic transmissions.

 

 

Thank you for this ^^ tutorial on bearings, but after 4.5 decades working on all kinds of mechanical things, I’m quite familiar with different designs and applications for them.

 

I can also come across overly pedantic, but find it more helpful & sensible to use more accurate technical terminology when offering advise on anything mechanical/technical, especially if I can’t be sure all recipients (i.e. current or future readers on some online discussion forum) are familiar with any generic brand name references that might be common in some circles, but not necessarily in all or globally.

There might be a number of members/readers of this forum around the world who have no idea what “Kleenex” or “Timken bearings” are and it may cause a a lot confusion or grief if/when they try to acquire something using those as references, let’s say in Argentina, Denmark, UK, etc.

 

[Oldtech]

I have looked in both the Motors and Chilton manuals and neither seem to want to put a limit on king pin play.  A little seems acceptable as replacement kits for chevys in the 40's and 50's often came as slip fit where you didn't need to ream them. They always showed a bit of play when you rocked the wheel top to bottom.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 1/8 inch wouldn't be a worry. This is measured at the floor.

[TTR]

As a side note reference to king pins, some mid-‘50s Chrysler Corp. car OEM setups use needle bearings* at the upper end of the pin.
I’ve even installed them to both ends, but don’t yet have a lot of long term experience with results.

* Apparently made back in the day as proprietary items for Chrysler Corporation by Torrington since they don’t have industry standard sizing specifications or aftermarket availability.

 

Edited Friday at 06:37 PM by TTR (see edit history)

[Zeb]

On 10/2/2024 at 3:01 AM, Oldtech said:

I have looked in both the Motors and Chilton manuals and neither seem to want to put a limit on king pin play.  A little seems acceptable as replacement kits for chevys in the 40's and 50's often came as slip fit where you didn't need to ream them. They always showed a bit of play when you rocked the wheel top to bottom.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 1/8 inch wouldn't be a worry. This is measured at the floor.

Thanks for looking in the manuals Oldtech, I have no where near 1/8th play so that one job less to do.