What's wrong with 6 volts?

[Frank DuVal]

Hey, Hook, give credit! That comic is from XKCD.com. Randall Munroe is also a NASA engineer (physics degree). 

[arcticbuicks]

Interesting arguements on 6 volt being just fine......yes a 6 volt in your classic car today that I am sure you only drive on nice days maintained is quite fine.....or defending a Duesenberg or other large quality classic car starting just fine with a 6 volt......but lets back up to when these cars were driven in all weather conditions and not just taken out on a summer day today.....I grew up in the tail end of 6 volt cars on the road......in a area and country outside the warm USA areas and much the same as many northern US states or other countries experienced......where cars trucks busses equipment etc where being used daily which includes winter and down to -30s many days....and I am not talking -2 degrees.........is a Cadillac V12 or Packard or Duesenberg going to start just fine in -10....-20...-30 or even a flat head basic Ford ?.......NO....it was the biggest pain in practical use of the times......once started and running everything functioned and ran and operated quite well.........just that darn 6 volt battery was the weakest part of the car.......6 volt are slow cranking and now lets take away 30-60% of the battery power in minus freezing weather that any battery loses in cold weather.....diesels were worse and as most people know a diesel requires 150-250 rpm cranking to start and in cold weather very difficult to obtain with 6 volt batteries.....12 volts was a warm welcome to practical all weather starting and far superior hands down.....and in fact it was the smaller gas engines that started better in cold weather than the big huge engines .........I only remember a very odd few cars that were actually able to start in -40s degree weather that we more commonly had back then .......and I am talking without electric battery blanket or electric plug in engine block heaters plugged in overnight,without keeping the battery in the warm house before going out to start the car and without filling the engine with warm coolant before starting......and none of them were any big luxury big engine cars that started the best....and was truely amazing any started at all in those conditions,my uncle from Chicago who had big packards and came back home with family to northern Canada every Christmas and other relatives with Cadillacs etc.......ALL complained of the poor 6 volt starting in cold weather.......traveling and staying in hotels on the journey home around Christmas time with car parked outside overnight anywhere enroute sitting in a hotel parking lot in -30 with windchill of -60.............perhaps a good way we can all settle the argument....have a AACA tour of the Reynolds museum in Alberta Canada in January or February in say -35 dregree weather or even -20 if we do not want to be so extreme..... and get the museum  to place some of the finest cars in cold unheated building a few days before along with 12 volt classics......I could probably get the museum onboard for a historical test also........it is quite amazing how a lot of newer cars start well right down into the -40s likely mostly due to 12 volts and fuel injection as well as being smaller engines.

Edited Tuesday at 09:02 AM by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[hook]

4 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Hey, Hook, give credit! That comic is from XKCD.com. Randall Munroe is also a NASA engineer (physics degree). 

Sorry old chap, I got it from the Telephone Collectors Library. Didn't know true source. I apologize to the creator.

 

Hook

[hook]

7 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

Wait! Are saying that British electronics are unreliable? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you! 😲

 

(Yeah, pun only partly unintended... 😆)

 

Oh, what you really needed was this:

 

Or this explanation that I found.

[hook]

7 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

Wait! Are saying that British electronics are unreliable? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you! 😲

 

(Yeah, pun only partly unintended... 😆)

 

Oh, what you really needed was this:

 

Or this explanation that I found.

[Littlestown Mike]

Joseph Lucas is often called the "Prince of Darkness".
I have read over the years that he "invented" darkness.  This is not true.

I have also read that he is merely the inventor of the "sudden appearance of darkness."

This is true.

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

Interesting arguements on 6 volt being just fine......yes a 6 volt in your classic car today that I am sure you only drive on nice days maintained is quite fine.....or defending a Duesenberg or other large quality classic car starting just fine with a 6 volt......but lets back up to when these cars were driven in all weather conditions and not just taken out on a summer day today.....I grew up in the tail end of 6 volt cars on the road......in a area and country outside the warm USA areas and much the same as many northern US states or other countries experienced......where cars trucks busses equipment etc where being used daily which includes winter and down to -30s many days....and I am not talking -2 degrees.........is a Cadillac V12 or Packard or Duesenberg going to start just fine in -10....-20...-30 or even a flat head basic Ford ?.......NO....it was the biggest pain in practical use of the times......once started and running everything functioned and ran and operated quite well.........just that darn 6 volt battery was the weakest part of the car.......6 volt are slow cranking and now lets take away 30-60% of the battery power in minus freezing weather that any battery loses in cold weather.....diesels were worse and as most people know a diesel requires 150-250 rpm cranking to start and in cold weather very difficult to obtain with 6 volt batteries.....12 volts was a warm welcome to practical all weather starting and far superior hands down.....and in fact it was the smaller gas engines that started better in cold weather than the big huge engines .........I only remember a very odd few cars that were actually able to start in -40s degree weather that we more commonly had back then .......and I am talking without electric battery blanket or electric plug in engine block heaters plugged in overnight,without keeping the battery in the warm house before going out to start the car and without filling the engine with warm coolant before starting......and none of them were any big luxury big engine cars that started the best....and was truely amazing any started at all in those conditions,my uncle from Chicago who had big packards and came back home with family to northern Canada every Christmas and other relatives with Cadillacs etc.......ALL complained of the poor 6 volt starting in cold weather.......traveling and staying in hotels on the journey home around Christmas time with car parked outside overnight anywhere enroute sitting in a hotel parking lot in -30 with windchill of -60.............perhaps a good way we can all settle the argument....have a AACA tour of the Reynolds museum in Alberta Canada in January or February in say -35 dregree weather or even -20 if we do not want to be so extreme..... and get the museum  to place some of the finest cars in cold unheated building a few days before along with 12 volt classics......I could probably get the museum onboard for a historical test also........it is quite amazing how a lot of newer cars start well right down into the -40s likely mostly due to 12 volts and fuel injection as well as being smaller engines.

 

The same criteria for coldness also applies to 12 volt vehicles. 

 

The big difference in the ability of a vehicle to cold start at those temperatures was the application of fuel injection in the 80's, +-. 

 

I for one and I would guess not the only one carried at least one can of starting fluid on the floor behind the drivers seat all winter to start my 12 volt '63 car if it would not catch on the first try, and it was always in good tune.  It was just a way it was in very cold weather.  Carbs did not give good fuel delivery, especially in very cold vehicles.

[arcticbuicks]

starting fluid in a spray can was common for diesel .......and common to damage engines and stretch head bolts etc on gas engines........the only problem with spray can starting fluid in 'extreme' cold is that is dosnt spray as the cold contracts the contents of the can to the point of no pressure to spray....and yes as i stated any battery loses huge reserve of cold cranking amps ......and with the loss of cold cranking amps with a 6 volt ...there was not much very slow cranking left to start the engine in cold weather.....most  6 volt batteries have around 360 cold cranking amps and not much better than the old days.......however many 12 volt batteries have 800-1000 cold cranking amps.......so basically a 12 volt car will start 3 times better in cold and extreme cold weather which i have witnessed and lived thousands of times......and life depended on a engine starting in many situations

Edited Tuesday at 11:12 AM by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Funny.......I started my 1931 Cadillac in January at somewhere around 0 degrees without issue...........in an unheated barn where the car had been sitting for 90 days. My 51 Plymouth started at 12 degrees below zero on a six volt system after sitting outside for months....and I had to dig it out of the snow bank.......my modern Buick wouldn't fire. So I drove the 51 to work. Maybe the cold in Massachusetts is easier on cars. 🤔

[joe_padavano]

7 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

On a typical 6 volt car, the large current connections are what?, 8 for the starter circuit? Two on the battery, one on the chassis, two on the ground connection chassis to engine block, two (or one) on the starter switch/solenoid and one on the starter itself.

Again, I am in no way suggesting that a 6V system won't work. Obviously they did for a long time. All I am saying is that it's more than the handful of high current connectors. Small voltage drops at every connection is death by a thousand cuts. Sure, you can individually clean and (if necessary) replace the bad ones, but that just works until the next one gets more corroded. And then there's the whole separate ground wire network to install, as suggested above. Is this the right way to go for a quality car that needs to be correct? Of course not. Can it be made to work acceptably on a car that is used a limited amount? Of course it can. For something that will be driven more than just off and on the trailer, it can be advantageous to have a little margin against those cumulative voltage drops. All I am saying is that there are reasons for making the change. And sure, automakers did it originally simply to reduce the amount of copper in the vehicle.

[arcticbuicks]

45 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Funny.......I started my 1931 Cadillac in January at somewhere around 0 degrees without issue...........in an unheated barn where the car had been sitting for 90 days. My 51 Plymouth started at 12 degrees below zero on a six volt system after sitting outside for months....and I had to dig it out of the snow bank.......my modern Buick wouldn't fire. So I drove the 51 to work. Maybe the cold in Massachusetts is easier on cars. 🤔

how about -20 or -30 ? ........like i stated ...im not talking -2...........cold winter day in Chicago or North Dakota or Central Canada in the 1930s that people had to experience -30s or even down to -45 around here ?........below 0 is when things quickly change getting difficult......nice to keep a car in a barn protected from windchill also 

Edited Tuesday at 01:04 PM by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[edinmass]

We only see temperatures like that once every 20 years just for a day or two. Till the 20's many people had a bunson burner type gas heater to warm up the oil pan and engine......often tossing an old run over the hood to help keep the heat in and thin the oil. My grandfather spoke of draining the water every day when he got home, and filling it again in the morning to go to work. He worked at the big Springfield Mass junk yard for over 50 years. He drove a WW1 White truck converted into a tow truck from the mid 20's till after WWII. I have a photo of the truck somewhere..........It's what motivated me to by my White cars.

[Sparkydave]

10 hours ago, Land24 said:

I don’t believe you switch the charger cables around as was stated in the first post

I do.  On my battery chargers (like most), the red cable is positive, black is negative.  On the Lincoln, the red battery cable is negative, black is positive.  Believe me, my 12 amp, old school, unregulated, non-smart charger would be very unhappy if I connected it red to red and black to black like you normally would.  It would make big sparks and become a battery DIScharger until the circuit breaker trips, assuming it trips quickly enough to keep the rectifier diodes from letting the magic smoke out.

[arcticbuicks]

still common practice to start equipment and trucks mostly in extreme cold ,tiger torches ,propane blast heater or herman nelson heaters.....with blankets or tarps......if electricity isnt a extension cord reach for dual block heaters and electric battery blanket etc.......my diesel trucks have mini diesel fired boilers with recirculating pump that come on thru the night to keep the temp up............but still far better and easier than the 6 volts were and im usually able to get a Cummins started down to -30 with the 2 12 volt batteries with enough cold cranking amp reserve in a emergency

[ABear]

14 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Last week I was on the tech line with Honneywell International looking for the proper thermostat to operate the 750 milivolt gas valve on my home furnace.

A bit off topic, but pretty much ANY digital Thermostat which is "self powered" should be capable of dealing with a 750 millivolt furnace. Self powered as in it is self contained and uses a couple of AA or AAA batteries that power the Thermostat. The Thermostat uses a mechanical relay to call for heat. The Thermostat also is able to compensate for the timing (anticipator) of the burner to prevent heat overshoot.

 

Old mechanical T stats ran the furnace current through the clock spring which would preheat the spring to open quicker as the anticipator and the resistor adjuster adjusted the current running through the spring. Millivolt furnaces because the low voltage coming from the furnace was so low you needed a mechanical T stat specifically designed for millivolt furnaces or otherwise the furnace would severely overshoot.

 

Digital T stats that use a built in rechargeable battery or capacitor power backup will not work with millivolt furnaces as there will not be enough voltage from the furnace to recharge the battery or capacitor.

 

Look for any digital T stat which requires replaceable batteries AA or AAA and you will be good to go as the majority now days take replaceable batteries. They will work fine with any furnace voltage, I have used them in RVs which uses 12V DC unlike modern home furnaces that use 24V AC and they work fine at 12V.

[ABear]

15 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Last week I was on the tech line with Honneywell International looking for the proper thermostat to operate the 750 milivolt gas valve on my home furnace.

Double post.. disregard this one..

Edited Tuesday at 02:23 PM by ABear (see edit history)

[hook]

6 hours ago, Littlestown Mike said:

Joseph Lucas is often called the "Prince of Darkness".
I have read over the years that he "invented" darkness.  This is not true.

I have also read that he is merely the inventor of the "sudden appearance of darkness."

This is true.

Well just be careful of the Lucas products you use!                           Seriously, (my disclaimer) I have owned over sixty various automobiles of different makes with electrical systems from Bosch, Delco-Remy, Autolite, Mopar, Ford, Lucas and LucasBosch. Included in those 60 were 3 Healey's, 2 Triumphs and 1 Jaguar and I have found Lucas no better or worse than any of the others. It's just fun to pick on Lucas.

[John348]

4 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

still common practice to start equipment and trucks mostly in extreme cold ,tiger torches ,propane blast heater or herman nelson heaters.....with blankets or tarps......if electricity isnt a extension cord reach for dual block heaters and electric battery blanket etc.......my diesel trucks have mini diesel fired boilers with recirculating pump that come on thru the night to keep the temp up............but still far better and easier than the 6 volts were and im usually able to get a Cummins started down to -30 with the 2 12 volt batteries with enough cold cranking amp reserve in a emergency

God Bles you! I would have drank myself to death somewhere around 5 degrees below, so -30 would not have been a concern

[ply33]

4 hours ago, ABear said:

A bit off topic, but pretty much ANY digital Thermostat which is "self powered" should be capable of dealing with a 750 millivolt furnace. Self powered as in it is self contained and uses a couple of AA or AAA batteries that power the Thermostat. The Thermostat uses a mechanical relay to call for heat. The Thermostat also is able to compensate for the timing (anticipator) of the burner to prevent heat overshoot.

I dunno. . .

 

The wall furnace in our house is a millivolt setup and I ran through a number of battery powered digital thermostats. Each would work for about a year then stop being reliable. My hypothesis is that the switch contacts slightly oxidized and it doesn’t take much resistance in the control circuit before the furnace would not run. Last year I found a mechanical only thermostat at my local home center that specifically said it was designed for millivolt applications. It has lasted one season so far. I will see if it works for longer than the others I have gone through.

 

For what it is worth, a place I volunteer at in the mountains in the winter also has a wall furnace with a millivolt control. The thermostat for that has been there for 40 years and still works well. Modern stuff often seems to be of lower quality than what we had years ago.

[chistech]

You have to realize the majority of the people telling you to convert from 6 to 12 volts can’t even wire the lights on their trailer. I can’t believe how many trailers I’ve wired for people and some were electricians. They had no idea on low voltage DC!

[ABear]

17 minutes ago, ply33 said:

I dunno. . .

 

The wall furnace in our house is a millivolt setup and I ran through a number of battery powered digital thermostats. Each would work for about a year then stop being reliable. My hypothesis is that the switch contacts slightly oxidized and it doesn’t take much resistance in the control circuit before the furnace would not run. Last year I found a mechanical only thermostat at my local home center that specifically said it was designed for millivolt applications. It has lasted one season so far. I will see if it works for longer than the others I have gone through.

 

For what it is worth, a place I volunteer at in the mountains in the winter also has a wall furnace with a millivolt control. The thermostat for that has been there for 40 years and still works well. Modern stuff often seems to be of lower quality than what we had years ago.

Most electronic T stats I have used use sealed relays (dust and dirt proof) and the contacts are good for at least 2A so dirt or corrosion or even oxidization should not be playing much if any role. I have run into some early digital electronic T stats that used solid state devices, mainly Triacs, those do not play well with anything other than 24V AC (won't work at all with DC). Had one of those decide to lockup while it was calling for heat after the battery died, came home to a 90F+ house and furnace still running.. Bad design, no fail safe mode when the battery quits, bought a different brand..

 

Alternative plan in your case, one could add a 24V furnace relay center into your furnace (these come complete with 120V to 24V transformer plus 24V relay), would require running 120v to the relay center. Connect the thermopile to the relay center in the furnace, then connect the T stat to the relay center. Gets rid of all the wiring between the thermopile to the T stat and the associated resistance of the long wire run.

 

Thermopiles do get weak over time and if you have not replaced it ever, most likely due to be replaced. The gas valves also have a habit of getting sticky and sluggish and the ones for thermopiles can be a bit vulnerable to not working as they should easier than a valve for 24V.

[John348]

I do have one problem with the six volt system in my vehicle, is that the lighting system is not that adequate in this day and age.  One issue I have noticed is that the head-lights are not bright enough to kick off the automatic head light dimming systems of oncoming traffic in the new vehicles, and the high beams are absolutely blinding. To me it is comparable to a welding flash without a shield. I don't know if someone makes a sealed beam 6-volt LED. I just high tail it home once it starts getting dark. I also have a fear that my tail/brake lights are not bright enough to distract someone texting on their cell phone while they should be driving. Also drivers today just drive way too fast, I really noticed this in the past few years, so it could be me just aging.

 

4 minutes ago, chistech said:

You have to realize the majority of the people telling you to convert from 6 to 12 volts can’t even wire the lights on their trailer. I can’t believe how many trailers I’ve wired for people and some were electricians. They had no idea on low voltage DC!

That goes both ways, you have no idea how many auto mechanics asked me to do electrical work for them because they are afraid of it. What screws electricians up with automotive is the one wire system and the chassis as a conductor, DC does not help either. Seldom encounter it after apprenticeship in most areas. I would be lying if it I did not have to come up for air a few times trouble shooting a car a few times. As you know the newer the car isolating things can really be difficult 

[Larry Schramm]

Do you want 6 volt bulbs?  Sealed beam or otherwise.  Take your pick.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=6+volt+headlight+bulb+led&client=opera&sca_esv=44a81bd77c38e347&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIK0jZ02pC2VDRn17AkhQzIovuJ-Lw%3A1727212280133&ei=-CrzZrTnB-6zptQPuqjWqAE&ved=0ahUKEwi0w6KTv9yIAxXumYkEHTqUFRUQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=6+volt+headlight+bulb+led&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGTYgdm9sdCBoZWFkbGlnaHQgYnVsYiBsZWQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yCxAAGIAEGIYDGIoFMgsQABiABBiGAxiKBTIIEAAYgAQYogQyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBEiAD1D9CFi-DXABeAGQAQCYAWqgAZMDqgEDMS4zuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIFoAK0A8ICChAAGLADGNYEGEfCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICCBAAGBYYHhgPwgIKEAAYFhgKGB4YD5gDAIgGAZAGCJIHAzIuM6AHoxo&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#pvs=0

Edited Tuesday at 09:12 PM by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, John348 said:

That goes both ways, you have no idea how many auto mechanics asked me to do electrical work for them because they are afraid of it. What screws electricians up with automotive is the one wire system and the chassis as a conductor, DC does not help either. Seldom encounter it after apprenticeship in most areas. I would be lying if it I did not have to come up for air a few times trouble shooting a car a few times. As you know the newer the car isolating things can really be difficult 

I'm constantly amazed by people who readily rebuild their brakes or steering but run screaming like little girls when there are electrons involved. And if these electricians can't comprehend the fact that the other "wire" is made out of steel, that is also a concern. As for trailer wiring, my equipment trailer  that I bought brand new had the crappiest wiring job I've ever seen. Those blue Scotchlock connectors should be outlawed.

Edited Tuesday at 10:00 PM by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

6 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

As for trailer wiring, my equipment trailer  that I bought brand new had the crappiest wiring job I've ever seen. Those blue Scotchlock connectors should be outlawed.

 

Same experience with a new trailer and I agree on being banned, especially on exterior applications.

[rocketraider]

Ban use of wire nuts everywhere except home or some industrial wiring while you're at it. 

 

Never saw what was so difficult about stripping, crimping (using good terminals) and heat shrink myself.

[Tph479]

My view point is that they made 6 volt cars for 50+ years and they manufactured millions and millions of cars and that people would not put up with bad starting, or dim lights when they were new.  If you have 00 cables, plenty of clean grounds and a a good starter and generator you should be fine. I think the problem is when a bunch of Dolts start messing with the Volts.

[chistech]

I used to solder all my connections on my trailers and tow vehicles. I now use a non insulated ferrule and a pair of compound leverage crimpers then shrink tube the connection after putting dielectric grease both in and around the ferrule. I’ve pulled a lot of 3M blue, yellow, and red connector off and replaced them either with the solder or heavy crimp connectors. The compound leverage crimping pliers make incredibly secure connections. I buy the ferrules in bulk from my auto parts supplier. Way cheaper than other connectors.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, Tph479 said:

My view point is that they made 6 volt cars for 50+ years and they manufactured millions and millions of cars and that people would not put up with bad starting, or dim lights when they were new.  If you have 00 cables, plenty of clean grounds and a a good starter and generator you should be fine. I think the problem is when a bunch of Dolts start messing with the Volts.

 

  BUT!!  Perhaps lesson learned?   Been about  70 years of 12V.      Just saying!

 

   Ben

[arcticbuicks]

outhouses were around for hundreds of years ......no reason to change ........then came indoor flush toilets.

 

[PFitz]

6 hours ago, Tph479 said:

My view point is that they made 6 volt cars for 50+ years and they manufactured millions and millions of cars and that people would not put up with bad starting, or dim lights when they were new.  If you have 00 cables, plenty of clean grounds and a a good starter and generator you should be fine. I think the problem is when a bunch of Dolts start messing with the Volts.

Add the right size battery to that list.

 

I'm always amazed when a customer says their car's 6-volt system is no good for starting the car and when I look, and the battery is little more than half the size of the battery box.

 

I love that surprised look they get after I install the proper sized 6 volt battery for the car, and they hit the starter and the engine spins over and starts fine...... the way it was designed to.

 

Paul 

[Frank DuVal]

On 9/24/2024 at 9:16 AM, Sparkydave said:

On the Lincoln, the red battery cable is negative, black is positive. 

This has got to be someone installed the wrong colors, not stock! 😧  

 

I have seen it also. They bought whatever was in stock at the parts store to get it running that day.  "Sorry boss, they only had this length we need for the - terminal in red". ❗🛠️

 

Lesson here is to ONLY look at the battery terminals, not the color of the battery cables!!!!!!!!!🚒❗🛠️

Edited Wednesday at 02:25 PM by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

19 hours ago, John348 said:

One issue I have noticed is that the head-lights are not bright enough to kick off the automatic head light dimming systems of oncoming traffic in the new vehicles, and the high beams are absolutely blinding. To me it is comparable to a welding flash without a shield.

Yes, welding FLASH!! How these got past safety I do not know. Must have been approved by 20 year olds.....

 

Add a good ground to the headlamps and fix other voltage drop issues. The 6 volt sealed beams (6006) themselves are just as bright as their 12 volt counterparts (6012). 50 watts high beam, 40 watts low beam. Just need 6.1 to 6.3 volts at the terminals while working.

 

Even on 12 volt 50 year old cars I am now taking the headlamp switches apart to clean and lubricate them. 

 

There are also Halogen and LED versions. Now, who knows if the LED versions have the right focusing. They seem to be made by people with no need to be approved for highway use.  The H6006/H6026 Halogen does, as it is a Wagner Lighting product. But, really need to make sure there is no voltage drop in the system, as these do draw more current at 6.3 volts  (60 watts high, 50 watts low). The Halogen is H6006 or H6026. Amazon has the best price on H6006 from what I see (price + shipping).

 

 

[60FlatTop]

Engineering was quite refined by the 20th century C. E. Even Toth was quite skilled in application and teaching.

 

 

My life has been spent regaining and maintaining reliability and efficiency to power plants, building, as well as cars. The most successful approach I have found is to remove all the added improvements and return things to their original basis of design. It works amazingly well. And it appears to be universal from my experience.

 

These 6 volt automotive systems were mostly phased out by 1956. That is over 70 years. There is a very good chance that any car surviving today has had one or more long periods of idle storage. So many small details can be overlooked in recommissioning and maintaining such cars. Starting issues always make me think of the ignition timing advance systems, sticky little hidden bits. Springs, weights, lubricated pads, dry bearings, they all are suspect. But the old timer's memory of a single event that they may have heard of second or third hand can lead to a universally accepted generality embraced by the whole hobby. The things myths and legends are made of.

 

Thinking at the moment I would say the only modification on any of my cars right now is leaving the self adjusters off one of the cars. I didn't need their assistance.

 

[Frank DuVal]

17 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

Those blue Scotchlock connectors should be outlawed.

Here Here!!!! And the other colors also. 😉  Red, brown, beige, yellow,,,,,,

 

I call them suitcase connectors. Because they look like suitcases you close, and because the guys using them should be packing their suitcases and getting out of town before I find them.🤬

[60FlatTop]

Connectors? I'm a home run and terminal strip guy. I have even mounted a terminal strip on Bakelite for a period look.

[John348]

17 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

I'm constantly amazed by people who readily rebuild their brakes or steering but run screaming like little girls when there are electrons involved. And if these electricians can't comprehend the fact that the other "wire" is made out of steel, that is also a concern. As for trailer wiring, my equipment trailer  that I bought brand new had the crappiest wiring job I've ever seen. Those blue Scotchlock connectors should be outlawed.

It's not that simple, its force of habit, your mind as trade electrician thinks a certain way for 30-some-odd years, dealing with AC 3 phase 4 wire systems, then while the concept is the same, sometimes you have to pump the brakes a little. True electrons are electrons but when one system becomes second nature, sometimes you have to take a step back.

As far as the blue Sctochlocks being outlawed, they have their place and outside applications are not one of them, besides what would use on commercial and residential work?   

[60FlatTop]

I always differentiated myself from the trade electrician. They shut the power off to do their work.

[Frank DuVal]

4 minutes ago, John348 said:

As far as the blue Sctochlocks being outlawed, they have their place and outside applications are not one of them, besides what would use on commercial and residential work?   

I've never used Scotchlocks on residential or commercial work. That's wirenut* territory. Scotchlocks (suitcase) I've used maybe 5 over the years when I needed to tap an existing conductor in a car for something, but usually just temporary. I've removed hundreds.....  and crimp or solder the connections. 

 

*and now Wagos, especially LeverNuts, for certain applications (hanging off a ladder trying to hang a fixture one hand holding fixture, one hand holding the wires, one hand holding the wirenut....,)!   I bet you are a split bolt person!  Ha! 😁  But this isn't electriciantalk.com   where the Wago controversy continues.🤣

[Frank DuVal]

5 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I always differentiated myself from the trade electrician. They shut the power off to do their work.

This is a recent development. Started by looking at the statistics of injured and dead electricians by the safety people of the plant. Supposed to make the system dead before opening anything over 50 volts. Now how does one trouble shoot that?

I do get very cautious when opening the 1000 amp 480 panel at work to add another circuit.... transformer 30 feet away so arc flash will be really really hot.😧🛠️