Landau coupe/fixed top cabriolet in New Zealand back in the day

[nzcarnerd]

A photo taken in New Zealand in the 1930s.  Not very good quality unfortunately, with little of the body detail visible. 

 

The car appears to have four rim bolts on its wood wheels, and those hub caps look relatively large.

 

 

 

 

[dustycrusty]

It looks like a 1929-'30 Fisher bodied G.M. car- A Buick/Marquette, Oldsmobile/Viking or Oakland/Pontiac- EXCEPT for the lower attachment point for that landau bar!

 

In Fact, the whole roof looks a bit "double stuffed" like it may have been a non- OEM trim shops attempt to upgrade a coupe into a faux cabriolet and got carried away with the Sheep's wool?

 

1930 Buick for comparison:

Edited August 26 by dustycrusty (see edit history)

[DLynskey]

The hood looks unusually long. Could it hold an 8-cylinder engine?

 

Don

[Gunsmoke]

Whenever in doubt, pick a Nash! This comes close in many details.  

[dustycrusty]

Nashty!

[wayne sheldon]

NZ's OP car photo unfortunately is pretty grainy, with such poor detail that it will be difficult to find an exact match. If we could see details like hubcaps and radiator or hood trim better, we could find clues from which to search marques. I cannot make out enough detail to even see whether it is a real cabriolet, or a sport coupe look alike.

Sport coupes themselves through the mid 1920s into the early 1930s came in two distinctive variants. One was the fixed soft top like Ford made in their model A lineup 1928 through 1931. Chevrolet offered a very similar body style even earlier, at least in 1927, and I think in 1926 maybe. Over the years, I have known at least a dozen model A Ford sport coupes, and seen a few 1927/'28 Chevrolet versions. These usually had dummy landau irons, although the early model A "business coupe" with that type of top  and some Chevrolet versions did not have the landau irons. I "think" Chevrolet may have built some of that type in 1929 with the first year six cylinder. I suspect that might be what the OP car is.

The other variant of the sport coupe, is the much more solid and shaped coupe top and roof with the fabric top material tightly fitted down to the belt line around the back of the body. These were a bit more expensive, and usually (but not always!) also had the dummy landau irons.

In 1929, Reo designated their model, one I had as my first antique automobile, as a Reo master model C "semi" sport coupe! It had the dummy landau irons framing the rear-side corner windows. I then and still think it was one of the best looking of all that era sport coupes.

 

The Nash photo posted by Gunsmoke is a fine looking automobile, and clearly a cabriolet. However, the hood appears to be too short (small six that year) to be a match for the OP car. That in spite of the fact that several other details appear to be a match.

 

The 1930 Buick photo posted by Dusty C is a good example of the heavier more solid and more expensive fixed top sport coupes. 

About two years ago, we had quite a discussion about landau irons and sport coupes on this forum. One of the things discussed was the placement of the lower end of the landau irons. It was well established that while many sport coupes, both fixed soft tops and heavier more solid tops, anchored the lower end of the dummy irons in the bottom of the material top? Many Buick models in the late 1920s and early 1930s anchored the bottom of the dummy landau irons near the top of the lower body sheet metal. Just a slight styling difference. But worth remembering when trying to identify cars in photos.

 

All of that, back around to "what is the OP car"? The headlamps do not look correct for it, otherwise I would speculate 1929/'30 Chevrolet? Hood length, front fender, what little can be seen of the hubcap, all else looks right. Maybe the headlamps were changed? Perhaps another GM car, Pontiac maybe?

 

Regardless, an interesting photo. Moving day perhaps? Following the truck hauling all the belongings? I can't tell if there is some stuff stacked up in front of the motel, or is there stuff in the rumble seat?

The "Licensee" on the motel sign would be unusual for in the USA. New Zealand or Australia maybe? That could have an effect on the body style of the car.

 

Me rereading, the title says "New Zealand".

Edited August 26 by wayne sheldon
Additional thought. (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

4 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Whenever in doubt, pick a Nash! This comes close in many details.  

Note that the top end of the hood iron is below the top of the door on the green car above - and on this red one which I think is the same model, but the angle makes the hood look longer. 

 

On our mystery car the top of the hood iron is above the top of the door.

 

Add to that the Nash cars of the era used ten spoke wheels.

 

[nzcarnerd]

1 hour ago, wayne sheldon said:

NZ's OP car photo unfortunately is pretty grainy, with such poor detail that it will be difficult to find an exact match. If we could see details like hubcaps and radiator or hood trim better, we could find clues from which to search marques. I cannot make out enough detail to even see whether it is a real cabriolet, or a sport coupe look alike.

Sport coupes themselves through the mid 1920s into the early 1930s came in two distinctive variants. One was the fixed soft top like Ford made in their model A lineup 1928 through 1931. Chevrolet offered a very similar body style even earlier, at least in 1927, and I think in 1926 maybe. Over the years, I have known at least a dozen model A Ford sport coupes, and seen a few 1927/'28 Chevrolet versions. These usually had dummy landau irons, although the early model A "business coupe" with that type of top  and some Chevrolet versions did not have the landau irons. I "think" Chevrolet may have built some of that type in 1929 with the first year six cylinder. I suspect that might be what the OP car is.

The other variant of the sport coupe, is the much more solid and shaped coupe top and roof with the fabric top material tightly fitted down to the belt line around the back of the body. These were a bit more expensive, and usually (but not always!) also had the dummy landau irons.

In 1929, Reo designated their model, one I had as my first antique automobile, as a Reo master model C "semi" sport coupe! It had the dummy landau irons framing the rear-side corner windows. I then and still think it was one of the best looking of all that era sport coupes.

 

The Nash photo posted by Gunsmoke is a fine looking automobile, and clearly a cabriolet. However, the hood appears to be too short (small six that year) to be a match for the OP car. That in spite of the fact that several other details appear to be a match.

 

The 1930 Buick photo posted by Dusty C is a good example of the heavier more solid and more expensive fixed top sport coupes. 

About two years ago, we had quite a discussion about landau irons and sport coupes on this forum. One of the things discussed was the placement of the lower end of the landau irons. It was well established that while many sport coupes, both fixed soft tops and heavier more solid tops, anchored the lower end of the dummy irons in the bottom of the material top? Many Buick models in the late 1920s and early 1930s anchored the bottom of the dummy landau irons near the top of the lower body sheet metal. Just a slight styling difference. But worth remembering when trying to identify cars in photos.

 

All of that, back around to "what is the OP car"? The headlamps do not look correct for it, otherwise I would speculate 1929/'30 Chevrolet? Hood length, front fender, what little can be seen of the hubcap, all else looks right. Maybe the headlamps were changed? Perhaps another GM car, Pontiac maybe?

 

Regardless, an interesting photo. Moving day perhaps? Following the truck hauling all the belongings? I can't tell if there is some stuff stacked up in front of the motel, or is there stuff in the rumble seat?

The "Licensee" on the motel sign would be unusual for in the USA. New Zealand or Australia maybe? That could have an effect on the body style of the car.

 

Me rereading, the title says "New Zealand".

You make some good points there. 

 

I reckon our mystery car has a fixed 'soft' top rather than a (Buick-like) wooden hardtop with fabric attached.

 

It has been suggested that the car might be an Erskine - but I don't think the lines are right. This is a factory photo of a '29 cabriolet. The more expensive Dictator cabriolet only came with wire wheels and sidemounts.

 

 

[CHuDWah]

19 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

These usually had dummy landau irons, although the early model A "business coupe" with that type of top  and some Chevrolet versions did not have the landau irons.

The other variant of the sport coupe, is the much more solid and shaped coupe top and roof with the fabric top material tightly fitted down to the belt line around the back of the body.

 

About two years ago, we had quite a discussion about landau irons and sport coupes on this forum. One of the things discussed was the placement of the lower end of the landau irons. It was well established that while many sport coupes, both fixed soft tops and heavier more solid tops, anchored the lower end of the dummy irons in the bottom of the material top? Many Buick models in the late 1920s and early 1930s anchored the bottom of the dummy landau irons near the top of the lower body sheet metal. Just a slight styling difference. But worth remembering when trying to identify cars in photos.

 

Just a couple additional comments on the Model A versions (for the sake of brevity, I edited your post down to the portions to which I am responding)...

 

The lower end of the Sport Coupe landau irons anchored in a wood belt rail.  A rumble seat was standard on this model.  A trunk compartment was standard on the Business Coupe, which was produced only in 1928-29.  As you mention, it did not have landau irons in 1928.  However in 1929, it had oval quarter windows.

 

 

I believe the Special Coupe is the Ford version of what you describe as "much more solid and shaped coupe top and roof with the fabric top material tightly fitted down to the belt line around the back of the body."  It had a trunk compartment standard but no landau irons, and was produced during the second half of 28 through the first half of 29.  Coupes produced before and after then did not have the fabric back panel except for a couple months overlap in 29 when both styles were built.

 

[TerryB]

A little editing added

[wayne sheldon]

3 hours ago, CHuDWah said:

 

Just a couple additional comments on the Model A versions (for the sake of brevity, I edited your post down to the portions to which I am responding)...

 

Thank you for the additional details and example photos!

Although I never really got into the model A thing, a lot of my longtime friends have been, and somehow I seem to pay a lot of attention to some of the model A history.

Both the "special" and the "business" coupes of 1928/'29 in the model As are relatively rare. A very long time ago, when I was in high school, I had an opportunity to wander around a wrecking yard in a small out of the way California town. There I found the remains of a model A special coupe. I was immediately intrigued by how different it was from the typical model A coupe of the same years. For a short amount of time, I really wanted to save and restore that car! But the owner of the yard wanted more for the car than one could buy a running and driving decent model A in those days. And it was a real mess, in poor condition and missing a lot of parts. So there it stayed.

However, for me, the "special coupe" was indelibly impressed into my memory. Ever since then, every time I see a special coupe, I notice it and pay a little more attention to it. In over fifty years since then, I have only seen a handful of special coupes in person, and not a lot more than that in photographs. Having personally seen probably nearly a couple thousand model As over the years, I would consider them relatively rare.

I suspect that the special coupe survival rate is very low due the the top construction. The material top deteriorated, then leaked, resulting in a chain of deterioration within the body. That then lead to an early time to dispose of the car resulting in far fewer of them surviving the second World War.

The business coupe was a variation of the sport coupe body (whereas the special coupe body was itself unique). While they were also prone to top fabric failures, the fabric top was a simple task for any local top and upholstery shop to replace (the special coupe was a much more complicated assembly). The business coupe was marketed towards practical and often traveling salesmen with an attractive price and few extras. The cars tended to be used hard and were often worn out in only a few hard years. However, their relative rarity is as much due to the fact that the body with only minor changes was the same as the more desirable sport coupe. 

Most of the business coupes that did survive into the postwar restoration era were converted to the more desirable sport coupe. Years ago, when I was hanging around the model A crowd with friends, I personally met a couple different people that bragged about doing that with their model As. I could only guess how many people did that but didn't brag about it? Some simple wooden structure changes to eliminate the oval window, add a rumble seat (all parts readily available then), add cowl lights (readily available then), and you have the basic sport coupe. Fender wells and side-mounts could also be added if so desired.

[nzcarnerd]

The mystery of this phot was solved a short time ago when further photos from an archive of roadbuilding and contracting photos was posted on a local Facebook page. 

 

It is a 1929 Graham-Paige, most likely a 612. The Standard Catalog says the cabriolet body was available on all series except the largest, the 837. 

 

The plate dates the photo to 1931-32. 

 

 

 

The big wheel on the left will be on this steam traction engine, undoubtedly one of the many British makes sold in NZ. It was likely quite old by 1931. 

 

A Reo Speedwagon in the background.

 

A Reo Speedwagon at work being loaded with gravel from a river. Photo date 1928-29. That loader would have quite unusual. Mostly the gravel was simply shoveled onto trucks by hand. 

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

I am not aware of any surviving G-P 612 cabriolets in NZ. There are several sedans, at least two roadsters and this coupe which. by its plate, is the only one.

 

 

[dustycrusty]

• Author

 

 

 

Oh yes, its DEFINATELY a British steam engine! The wheeled contraption being towed behind it is a rock crusher and conveyor belt system- basically a portable crushing plant To turn large rocks into smaller grade gravels. They are crossing the creek next to that bridge because that puny bridge couldnt bear the weight!

 

Here's a similar Marshall Steamer built in Gainsborough, Lincolnshire. They shipped them all over The Commonwealth, as did Aveling-Porter , Burrell and Fowler...

 A belt driven rock crusher in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch

 

Edited August 28 by dustycrusty (see edit history)

[31 LaSalle]

3 hours ago, E-116-YH said:

Hello nzcarnerd,

                                   I believe you have an image of a 1930 DeSoto CF-8 convertible coupe.

correct me if i am wrong but the desoto pictured has twelve spokes on the wheels 

and the other car has only ten spokes but apart from that they look very similar

[keiser31]

The 1929 Graham has the lower landau bar attachment below the roof/body transition. The De Soto looks correct.

[James Long]

That photo outside the hotel is very possibly in Springfield, a very small town about 35 miles north west of Christchurch (South Island, New Zealand). The Potton family are recorded as owning that hotel during World War 1 and presumably after that. The military records show that one of them, Captain Leonard Potton, died of influenza in WW1 and his next of kin's address was the hotel in Springfield.  

[nzcarnerd]

12 hours ago, E-116-YH said:

Hello 31 LaSalle,

                                 I would venture a guess that this image was taken when the DeSoto was several years old, maybe even during the war because it looks to have a box or a tray where the rumble seat would be. In New Zealand they have this nasty little boring bug that they call a Bora Bora that gets into the wood of cars, buildings and even wood spoke wheels. When I was traveling in New Zealand one fellow that I stayed with put his vintage car in his shed and set a bug bomb off so to fumigate the building, the car and rid himself of these pests. He told me everyone with a wood garage had to do this every so many months. 

              I would speculate that this 1930 DeSoto has had its wood wheels  replaced  with 1931 wheels. I can't say 100% but I would say that the 1931 DeSoto late series CF-8 offered a ten spoke wood artillery wheels just like Dodge Brothers did. When I was in New Zealand I could hardly believe the very high percentage of Dodge Brothers cars with wire wheels. I believe that the dealers and the people opted for the more expensive wheels in the 20s and 30s just so they didn't have to contend with the boring bugs. Here is a image of a 1931 Dodge Brothers DG-8 with the ten spoke wheels. DeSoto normally followed suit with what Dodge Brothers did, I know of one instance in 1930 where Dodge Brothers took an idea from DeSoto.      

Are you sure you are not confusing New Zealand with Australia, a country three plus hours flying time away to the north, and which has a much drier climate.

 

We do have problems with borer, but I think the predominance of surviving wire wheel cars from the late 1920s is just that is what people have collected - the higher spec models.