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Prewar Buick oil vs engine temp.


CTCV

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https://forums.aaca.org/topic/390102-oil-cooler-bypass-1933-buick-57/?do=findComment&comment=2468789


I was reading the above post from December of 22. I noticed a comment regarding NAPA  30 weight non- detergent engine oil. I recently changed my engine oil to the same oil and my engine temperature seems to have gone up considerably. 
There is mention of Castrol Classic   
It seems I have an opportunity to validate this concern. Can anyone chime in if you had the same issue and a better oil. I can’t remember what I originally had in it, may have been Pennzoil 30

Tony

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Are you saying that you changed the oil to NAPA SAE 30 ND and the coolant temperature has increased?  It's hard to believe that the oil is responsible for that.  I would first check the cooling system, including the thermostat, radiator, fan belt, etc.  Also check ignition dwell, base timing and vacuum advance operation.

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Posted (edited)

Ok thanks for the input. I will run with MORE (oops) advance. Not sure what the correct dwell for my 344. Dual points should be. Right now at maybe 24 -25. 
Same cooling system. This happened immediately after changing the oil and filter. 

Edited by CTCV
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13 hours ago, Stude Light said:

I wonder why anyone would use non-detergent oil

Older engines have no oil filters.  They use the oversized pan as a settling basin instead.  Modern "detergent oils" suspend solids to be removed by a filter, so the solids stay suspended and can cause more wear.  If your car has a filter, you are good to go.  If it has no filter, non-detergent oil is recommended.

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On 8/10/2024 at 7:56 AM, CTCV said:

my engine temperature seems to have gone up considerably

Tony,

I don't recall, do you have an oil filter?

Can you post a pic of the passenger side of your engine bay...my memory has faded, and I cannot find a pic of your engine...

 

I would run 20-50 Castrol Classic or Valvoline VR1 detergent with a filter.

Running thousands of miles now on my 32 Buick in hot ambient temps above 100F and at high rpms to 65mph, I have found the suspended solids to be easily filtered and the babbitt bearings to be nice and clean and wear surfaces concentric year over year.

With detergents, the valve train and bearings looks clean, and so do the rings/plugs.

The engine has 30-35psi oil pressure when cruising, 10-15psi when idling at 500-600rpm.

 

image.png.f327bca892d47fd014b395175bac64f2.png

 

Dwell in the range of 24-30 is fine, plenty of time for a hot spark.

What are the gaps on your plugs?

How do the plugs look?

What brand/# plug are you using?

Plug gap?

Point gaps?

 

 

 

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I set the points at .020 

my plugs are ac86 at .032

i have one of those filter cans that take a new style screw on filter inside. 
I have 45 psi oil pressure at anything over 400 RPM when it warms up it has 35 at idle 40 at cruise. 
My radiator is recored with modern style not honeycomb. 
I just used a laser to check temperature in and out of the radiator but noticed no big difference.  I guess I better check the pump. 
T

IMG_1269.jpeg

IMG_1271.jpeg

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21 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

Older engines have no oil filters.  They use the oversized pan as a settling basin instead.  Modern "detergent oils" suspend solids to be removed by a filter, so the solids stay suspended and can cause more wear.  If your car has a filter, you are good to go.  If it has no filter, non-detergent oil is recommended.

That is one way to go but I don’t like having all the carbon and gunk build up in my engine requiring dropping the pan and valve cover often to clean it out so I run detergent oils and change the oil more frequently.
 

8 years and several thousand miles after putting my 1923 Studebaker engine together I removed the timing chain cover and this is what it looked like inside (I did not wipe anything out)

IMG_6476.jpeg.0a2ef96f3e8ee53a13735efce4d19944.jpegThis is why I always run detergent oils, filter or not.

 

I have owned two piston engine aircraft both of which had no oil filters. The factory and all my mechanics always use detergent oils on all the aircraft they service. The only time non-detergent oils are used is during the initial break-in which they claim was to build some carbon in the piston/ring interfaces to better seat the rings.

 

Edited by Stude Light (see edit history)
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I've posted these photos of "crank turds" in a Pierce-Arrow run on non-detergent oil and without an oil filter several times in the past but it's time to do it again.  How much oil do you think was getting through to those bearings?

 

Solid contaminants settle out in the crankshaft and other oil passages, NOT JUST IN THE PAN.  If you use modern dispersant ("detergent" is a misnomer) oil, that amount of contaminant in suspension in the oil remaining in the crank's oil passages -- and galleries and pipes -- will not go out the drain on oil change #1, but the vast, vast majority will most likely go out the drain on subsequent oil changes.

 

That's why I use dispersant oils.  But I have also either dropped and cleaned the pan or have been advised of the rebuild/overhaul state of the engine by previous owner to my satisfaction.

crank turd 1.jpeg

crank turd 2.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Grimy said:

 

I've posted these photos of "crank turds" in a Pierce-Arrow run on non-detergent oil and without an oil filter several times in the past but it's time to do it again.

 

I never grow tired of seeing those “crank turds”, 😁

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Tony,

That plug looks pretty good.

FWIW the original Buick specs were 025-030 low compression head, 020-025 high compression head.

I don't recall what the heat ranges are for the plugs listed below vs the AC86.

Highly unlikely that gap is related to the overheating, but plug gap can sometimes be an issue with these low compression engines which take a long time to complete the flame propagation.

Also if the timing is not advanced enough, the flame is being pushed out past the exhaust valve overheating it and the manifold and water jacket area.

 

What is your timing set to?

10deg per factory?, or further advanced for modern higher octane fuel?

 

image.png.db3f2dea84e3604f3f92d9424cd82b0a.png

 

Did you check temp at the base of the cooling tubes on top of the head?

 

You are probably correct, sounding like a water pump performance issue - maybe the impeller not turning with the shaft?

 

One other thing - your distributor looks overly retarded, maybe off by one plug (anticlockwise), but maybe its also just my eyes.

Buick specs put the screw wire at 3 o'clock when looking down, and the cover clips at 12 and 6 o'clock.

Not sure this will have any impact on overheating, but if the engine is overly retarded, it could be...

 

image.png.192c859c1defd1fa9b31e6423e2133fc.png

image.png.9b97ee788503f5c3b0a4af32e77ab52c.png

 

 

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On 8/12/2024 at 10:01 PM, 32buick67 said:

Buick specs put the screw wire at 3 o'clock

I mentioned my temperature getting high after changing my oil. And you are correct my distributor wires were not in factory positions. Here was the deal. My temperature normally ran 140. I changed the oil and very shortly after was hitting 180.  You guys were correct, one had nothing to do with the other. 
I started getting a miss in the engine I associated with increased temperature. It got worse so I thought I would check my points and timing as some indicated retarded timing could cause higher temperature. I could not get rid of this stumble in the engine. As some of you know, I pulled out my back up distributor that has new good points and gear and replaced the whole distributor assuming the gear on my original had too much lash. Others mentioned and I always felt a lean carb would run hotter. There are YouTube videos of guys stating lean does not run hotter. I’m here to tell you on this engine they would be wrong. Turns out after setting all tuneup items to spec. readjusting the wires to the correct position I still had the problem. I pulled the plugs. 3 and 6 slightly wet. 4 and 5 more wet. Got me to thinking blocked jet or venturi. 
I pulled the carb. (2 barrel Rochester) rebuilt it and problem gone. One side of the carb was not atomizing the fuel. It was dripping in not burning and wet the plugs also creating a lean condition. Thus making it run hotter. 
I went for a ride , I let it idle in place and either way……..can’t get over 145. 
thanks to all. 
Tony

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That’s great news, both for you and the people who are looking for similar information.  The follow up responses really aid the entire old car community when it comes to diagnosing drivability issues.

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Lean mixture will definitely run hotter and it sounds like you had the worst of both possibilities with the carb issue flooding the closest cylinders and starving the ones further away.  Glad you found the root cause and now you can be confident that everything is as it should be.  ;)

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Thanks for this. When I do something to my car and a problem arises, of course I check to see how I screwed it up. My tendency is to keep checking. I have to remind myself that, when the solution doesn’t appear, go back to the basics: Spark, fuel supply, air supply. Sparkplug condition should always be one of the first diagnostics. I’m glad your car is running properly again. And thanks again for the reminder.

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Spelling correction. (see edit history)
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