Packard 1932- 901: hot running, overheating: advice sought.

[cjmarzoli]

I recently acquired a 1932 Packard 901 Std. Eight.   (320 cid).  The previous owner advised that recently, the car would run hot in hot weather.   My first ride was on a 91 degree humid day.  I took a 10-12 mile ride at moderate cruising speed (35-45 mph).  The temp gauge came up to approximately the ¾ level (near the top of the safe zone).  It stayed there as long as the car was in motion.   Upon stopping at a stop sign or slowing down and stopping pulling into the garage, the temp gauge rose rapidly into almost the overheat zone.   I turned it right off and measured it with my laser thermometer.   The hood handle was almost too hot to touch (130 degrees F).   The hottest area was the  front of the head at 215 degrees.  The block was a bit cooler at 195-200, and the radiator and hoses were in the 190’s.  My understanding is there is no thermostat in the engine only on the radiator to control the opening of the shutters.  The shutters are now immobile or  unhooked and are always in the full open position.    What would be the normal operating temperature of this engine.  Any ideas as to why it is running hot?   Based on the fact it cools off some when in motion tells me the water pump is functioning to move the coolant through the radiator.   Thinking maybe I need a chemical flush and then a backflush with fresh water.  Any advice or tips would be appreciated.  Could it be anything else other than a partial blockage in the engine or radiator?   This is my first Packard of this (or any) vintage.  Thank you!

[alsancle]

1.  It is almost always the radiator.  

2.  However, I have had luck running water instead of anti-freeze mix in non pressurized system and have seen significantly cooler running temps.

3.  Is the timing correct?  Are you running advanced?

4.  You can try running evporust in the cooling system for a few weeks.  You may need to drain and refill a couple of times.  We have thread on this.

[edinmass]

Is the car pushing out water out of the overflow? Just flushing a radiator or “it looks good” is meaningless. You need to actually measure the flow rate. Most people are too lazy to do an accurate test. 

[cjmarzoli]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Is the car pushing out water out of the overflow? Just flushing a radiator or “it looks good” is meaningless. You need to actually measure the flow rate. Most people are too lazy to do an accurate test. 

It was not pushing any water out of the overflow.  There was no loss of coolant.  It was not visibly boiling or steaming.  The radiator is just about full but not up to the very top.    I tested the mixture and I'd say its at least 80% water.  It has a very high freeze point (barely moved the pointer on the antifreeze tester) and very little green in it.  How does one measure the flow rate?  What is the recommended coolant to use in vehicles of this vintage?

[cjmarzoli]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

1.  It is almost always the radiator.  

2.  However, I have had luck running water instead of anti-freeze mix in non pressurized system and have seen significantly cooler running temps.

3.  Is the timing correct?  Are you running advanced?

4.  You can try running evporust in the cooling system for a few weeks.  You may need to drain and refill a couple of times.  We have thread on this.

It is mostly water in there now.  Not much antifreeze.  Maybe 10-20% at most.   Have not checked timing.  is the evaporust post in the CCCA forum?  thanks

Edited July 23 by cjmarzoli (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Retarded timing causes overheating so check the timing and don't drive with the spark not advanced properly.

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, cjmarzoli said:

It is mostly water in there now.  Not much antifreeze.  Maybe 10-20% at most.   Have not checked timing.  is the evaporust post in the CCCA forum?  thanks

In some cooling systems the anti-freeze causes foaming and cavitation.   I would try straight water.

 

There are lots of threads on evaporust.  You  should search.   Here is one:

 

 

[edinmass]

Checking the flow rate requires equipment and the unit out of the car..........IE- Lots of work. Most shops do NOT have the correct equipment to check the flow......most just guess. And that is NOT a good way to fix a car. Sadly most radiator shops are gone now. You usually need to look for a truck or equipment repair style shop. On modern cars, you just replace radiators. 

[edinmass]

 

 

FYI- Just for some numbers to toss around. 

 

Edited July 23 by edinmass (see edit history)

[cjmarzoli]

Thanks, Ed.  When using Evapo rust, must it be used straight (undiluted)  in the cooling system or would it work to drain system, put a gallon evapo rust in, and fill the rest with distilled water during the cleaning process?    What do you feel is the proper coolant running temp for these engines?   I'm thinking no more than 200 at the most.

[kar3516]

20 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

FYI- Just for some numbers to toss around. 

Great data; thank you!

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, cjmarzoli said:

Thanks, Ed.  When using Evapo rust, must it be used straight (undiluted)  in the cooling system or would it work to drain system, put a gallon evapo rust in, and fill the rest with distilled water during the cleaning process?    What do you feel is the proper coolant running temp for these engines?   I'm thinking no more than 200 at the most.

 

If mine, I would run pure evaporate rust in it. The car on a normal day should run from 140-160. Some cars run to 180 but my experience says anything over 160-170 is mechanical issues. Evapo works better when you heat cycle it. I drove my 32 Pierce with it for 6 months. Cleaned it up like new. I was pushing water out the overflow severely. Within 100 miles it stopped. Had rust in the radiator. Many radiators have been replaced with cores that do NOT flow enough.....so you will have heat issues. Also, never trust the dash gauge.....use a laser. There are many issues that cause overheating.........gaskets, reproduction parts, poor service, it's endless. Only one thing is certain.....the did NOT overheat or run hot new. 

Edited July 23 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

Notice the numbers on the chart..........bigger flow rate differences than one would expect. The Pierce V-12 is HUGE..........and today most run warm, so that sort of tells you if your V-12 Pierce is running hot.......it's you car having issues. 

[cjmarzoli]

I see Evapo-Rust now has a specific product for cooling systems called Thermocure.  Has anyone used that?

https://www.crcindustries.com/crc-thermocure-cooling-system-rust-remover-flush-wt-32-oz/

[Tph479]

I had the same issue a while back a newly acquired 32 Packard. One of the main things was the weights in the distributor were gummed up and not advancing, so the engine was running retarded at higher rpm. Also the valves were way out of adjustment. Once those items were corrected it was like driving a completely different car in both pep and water temperature.

 

Usually the engines will run in the 140-160 range and the problem is that they run too cool.

 

Running straight evaporust as stated above works awesome. I also will run an engine on straight vinegar after the evaporust treatment to try to get any calcium out of the system and then do a thorough flush of the cooling system.

 

Good luck with your journey. Once you are dialed in you will enjoy the car. 

 

 

[Lee H]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Notice the numbers on the chart..........bigger flow rate differences than one would expect. The Pierce V-12 is HUGE..........and today most run warm, so that sort of tells you if your V-12 Pierce is running hot.......it's you car having issues. 

Bah! In the contest for least efficient use of combustion heat, I’ll stack up a Lincoln HV-12 against anybody🫢

[cjmarzoli]

Does anyone know what metals the '32 Packard radiator was composed of?  Steel? Iron?  Copper? Aluminum?  The evapo-rust only works on rust and ferrous metals.   If my radiator is not a ferrous metal, it won't be very effective at cleaning the passages in the core.

[edinmass]

The whole point is it cleans out the iron oxide that ends up in the core from the block, but doesn’t damage the radiator.

[Su8overdrive]

CJmarzoli -- All the above are giving you stellar info.  Keep it simple.  Don't reinvent the wheel.  Use the above product, or what we did years ago:  Two pounds washing soda (not baking soda), Arm & Hammer among others offers this.  A pint or two kerosene.  Put these in your radiator.  Drive 20 miles.  Drain first your block with radiator cap off so it will drain faster.  You might poke a piece of welding rod or straightened clothes hangar far as you can to help get any sediment out.  Flush with garden hose 'til just clear water comes out.  Then open your radiator's petcock and let that drain.  Flush that with garden hose 'til only clear water comes out.  

 

 Close rear block plug and radiator petcock.  BTW, depending on where your rear block drain plug is,  some like to install a stand off.   Fill your cooling system with  o n l y   reverse osmosis water, 49 cents a gallon at Whole Foods, or if you're feeling flush, pardon pun, 50 cents a gallon at Sprout's.  Bring your own jugs.  Use nothing but either no-rosion.com or Red Line Water Wetter.   Never use soluble oil, and outmoded practice that as a Chrysler engineer writing in the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg newsletter years ago explained, like antifreeze, leaves a heat transfer inhibiting film on your cooling system passages.   

 

 Do not use distilled water, which is ion hungry and leaches minerals, like lead, tin, copper, from your radiator and cooling system.

 

  Avoid antifreeze like the plague.  You only need antifreeze if your car exposed to a hard freeze--two consecutive nights below 30 degrees -- or has air conditioning even in LA or Phoenix in August requiring 15% antifreeze to protect the heater core from freezing.   For all the info you need about cooling system preservation see the tech link on no-rosion.com's website.

 

   No "water pump lubricant" or other nonsense.  As a car buff industrial chemist explained, water itself is a good water pump lubricant.   BTW, antifreeze will seep where water won't.    The above is assuming your radiator doesn't have pinched tubes, a usual "fix" by many radiator shops.  But your '32 Packard probably has the ribbon type core.  And as suggested above, make sure your engine's timing right.   

 

   

[Packard enthus.]

pre-war Packards overheating?

 

I see all kinds of "monkey milk" solutions, some of which come close, but do not fully understand & deal with the problem.   It is called "TIME MARCHES ON"!

 

When delivered to their original owners as new cars,  Packards were under factory orders to behave themselves......they got their reputation by being over-engineered.   They did not overheat.  Period.

 

Of course, like most   "manufactuers"  Packard made most...but certainly not all of what rolled out their factory door. 

 

Radiators are a good example.  Packard, like many mfgs. , bought theirs from Harrison.  Those radiators were  simply "specd." for their respective applications.  Packards were so over-cooled...THEY COULD NOT OVERHEAT.

 

But then comes the enemy...TIME.    Dosn't matter how many times you cut the top and bottom tanks off, and "rod" the hell out of an old radiator - chemical deposits and changes significantly reduces a radiator's job as a heat exchanger.   The only real solution (assuming all else in the cooling system is properly maintained)  is a new core.    They aren't cheap.   

[Bud Tierney]

After all the excellent tech advice above, I know this's going to sound ridiculous, but is it a type/space arrangement where you can slip in o light behind the radiator at night and look thru the grill to see the light??

Chaff,small debris and spider webs can slowly reduce airflow through some radiators...

[cjmarzoli]

17 hours ago, Bud Tierney said:

After all the excellent tech advice above, I know this's going to sound ridiculous, but is it a type/space arrangement where you can slip in o light behind the radiator at night and look thru the grill to see the light??

Chaff,small debris and spider webs can slowly reduce airflow through some radiators...

Not a bad idea for starters!  I have not done that yet, but will.  I have drained the system and refilled with evapo-rust but now the car won't start so i have not been able to run or circulate it yet.  But that's another story...